Included in Build False Flags: Modify Memory Functionality

[Pieter Boelen]

@Hylie Pistof: What I intend to do for this at some point is to make any recognized false flags be forgotten again after a while.
I have some ideas on how to handle that, but I don't know when I'll get to actually doing the work required.
Don't count on it very soon, but at least it is on the To-Do List.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

It seems the forts memory reset so they "forget" you did not make it into this version. I just got hammered while sailing into Tortuga because I was flying a French flag while the last time I was there I was flying a Portagee flag. And yes, now the French and Portagees are mad at each other. I probably don't have enough money to repair my ship either, much less bribe the governor.

Great! There does not seem to be a way to fix this little misunderstanding. So I deleted those saves and started over from before I ever went there because there is no way to leave Tortuga.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

It seems the forts memory reset so they "forget" you did not make it into this version.

I made absolutely zero changes to that. On purpose and for two reasons:

1. Feedback and comments have been confusing more than anything else.
And if I don't get clear feedback to know how we DO want it to work, then I see no point in me just trying random things.
I'd just be wasting my time and effort. And with the amount of stuff I still have lined up, I try to not waste what time I have.

2. Handling this the way I would WANT to see it handled takes substantial time and effort on my part to figure out how to make it work properly.
I've got some ideas that may work, but doing this would have easily caused another 1-3 week delay on the release of Beta 4.0 .

There is one change I could easily have made, but I am no big fan of that particular change and prefer a different solution.

Long story short: We talked about this and based on that I'm pretty sure we agreed to not make any changes prior to the Beta 4.0 release.
That is why this is still open on the Beta & Brainstorming forum:
Medium Priority - False Flags: Modify Memory Functionality | PiratesAhoy!

I probably don't have enough money to repair my ship either, much less bribe the governor.

Bribing the governor is an ingame solution that does take care of the problem.
Cheatmode can give you the money if you want to do it but don't have the funds.

Alternatively, you can execute this line through console, which has the same effect:

ResetForts(FRANCE); // You can choose any other nation here

Or even:

ResetAllForts();

Which calls that function for ALL nations in one go.

So there ARE a whole bunch of ways around the issue.

So I deleted those saves and started over from before I ever went there because there is no way to leave Tortuga.

Or you could have kept those savegames until I got the chance to post this reply....

 

[Hylie Pistof]

The immediate problem was resolved by starting that part over again and this time France and Portugal did not go to war, so I was able to sail in there and back out using my personal flag. So I'm back to doing what I've always done and ONLY use my personal flag. No more false flags and it gets too complicated too fast.

There really is no way to clear up any false flag problems at Tortuga.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

There really is no way to clear up any false flag problems at Tortuga.

My above post mentions FOUR ways.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Cheating does not count. Go to Tortuga yourself and try to bribe the governor.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I imagine your problem with Tortuga is that there is no beach so you have to come in under the fort?
The bribing works per nation though, so you can sort out Tortuga by bribing another French governor somewhere else.

Bribing and cheating are the only two methods at the moment.
I am aware that something better is needed and if I'm given the chance to focus on development rather than everything else, then eventually that will get done.
But that takes time, so for now the way it is is the way it is.

 

[Grey Roger]

I made absolutely zero changes to that. On purpose and for two reasons:

1. Feedback and comments have been confusing more than anything else.
And if I don't get clear feedback to know how we DO want it to work, then I see no point in me just trying random things.
I'd just be wasting my time and effort. And with the amount of stuff I still have lined up, I try to not waste what time I have.

2. Handling this the way I would WANT to see it handled takes substantial time and effort on my part to figure out how to make it work properly.
I've got some ideas that may work, but doing this would have easily caused another 1-3 week delay on the release of Beta 4.0 .

In "Ardent" you capture the payroll ship while in sight of Santiago fort. It fires at you, so you need to get the capture over and done with quickly, then get out of there.

When I played after installing the new version, I escaped, did something else, returned to Santiago under a false Spanish flag, and the fort still fired at me. Perhaps I didn't notice, but I don't recall that happening during any game in any previous version - the fort would fire at me right after the capture, but I don't recall it attacking next time I approached Santiago after being at another island.

This was consistent. The fort always recognised me, even if I loaded up a savegame from before re-entering Santiago and tried again. And I'm still "Unrecognised" so the check versus fame should have very little chance of succeeding.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

In "Ardent" you capture the payroll ship while in sight of Santiago fort. It fires at you, so you need to get the capture over and done with quickly, then get out of there.

When I played after installing the new version, I escaped, did something else, returned to Santiago under a false Spanish flag, and the fort still fired at me. Perhaps I didn't notice, but I don't recall that happening during any game in any previous version - the fort would fire at me right after the capture, but I don't recall it attacking next time I approached Santiago after being at another island.

This was consistent. The fort always recognised me, even if I loaded up a savegame from before re-entering Santiago and tried again. And I'm still "Unrecognised" so the check versus fame should have very little chance of succeeding.

If they SEE you being hostile once, they'll know next time.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Well, I'll be nice and upgrade this to "High" priority for all it's worth.
We still need to reach some agreement on how to handle this though.

My thinking is that the date you were last seen can be stored as well so that after a certain period of time, you can be forgotten again.
This period of time can be dynamically related to the difference between your actual relations and -60.
So if you are at -61, the memory may reset after 2 days. But if you're at -119 then they'll remember for 60 days.

Does that sound like a promising solution?

 

[Grey Roger]

I'd suggest resetting the memory as soon as you go to worldmap and not having it remember you long term at all.

Case 1: the fort saw me capture the SP_CastelF so it can remember me even if I manage to moor, do things in town, then put to sea again. Two weeks later the fort sees a SP_CastelF sailing into Santiago, doesn't see anything suspicious because it failed the false flag check, so how does it know that's me and not some other SP_CastelF?

Case 2: the fort saw me capture the SP_CastelF and shot at me while leaving. Two weeks later the fort sees a Fast Galleon sailing into Santiago, doesn't see anything suspicious because it failed the false flag check, and Spain isn't blaming me for the loss of a Fast Galleon because I took it from someone else. Why should the fort connect that ship with me?

Case 3: the fort sees a basic merchant ship sailing into port under a Portugese flag, doesn't attack because Portugal is currently not an enemy, so doesn't take much notice of the ship. Two weeks later the fort sees a basic merchant ship sailing into port under a French flag, doesn't see anything suspicious because it failed the false flag check, so as far as it knows that's just another basic French merchant ship. So even if Portugal is now at war with France, why would the fort connect that ship with Portugal?

The long term memory makes no logical sense and is evidently causing gameplay problems. I recommend getting rid of it.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Would that not create an exploit of EPIC proportions?
Basically, you would be able to get away with anything!

While the current simplistic logic is indeed a bit shaky, I am thinking primarily of gameplay here.
What you suggest might indeed make some measure of sense and maybe even be historically accurate to some extent.
But there is also zero gameplay value to it then.

And why shouldn't forts and ships have some measure of memory on who they trust and who they don't?

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Gasmeplay?Hmmph. Currently the false flags are broken and non functional. I am restricted to French and Portuguese ports only because everyone else is mad at the French. Later it will change but for now that is the game play.
No false flags and no smuggling.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

For the record: We AGREED that the "bribe the governor" workaround would suffice for the time being.

It is not strange that you are having difficulty dealing with hostile towns. They're HOSTILE!
If you repeatedly want to do business with them, you should make peace with them so they aren't hostile anymore.

False Flags totally work. They were broken before as it completely didn't do what they were meant to.
They are not broken now and do exactly what I designed them to do.

Main issue is that ships and forts remember your previous flag and if you were recognized forever.
Which means everything is perfectly OK at the start of the game, but gets tricky as it progresses.
But there are already FOUR viable work-arounds for this as described in post #23 above.

We can argue all day long over the current situation being imperfect, but that is pointless.
I already KNOW that it needs further work. That is why this very thread exists.


The current system is simplistic. Of course it is! It is a "first pass".
All code related to "Nation Relations" was a complete and utter mess. I have rewritten it from scratch last year so that now it finally behaves itself.
False Flags never worked. Forts were never included. The fact that is a functional part of the mod now at all has been a HUGE step forward.

The current implementation is notably simple.
Because you don't rewrite a system from scratch AND make it stupidly complex at the same time.

For full awesome gameplay, you DO want something more fancy. I understand that.
And I deliberately did not even try to make that. Not yet.

I am not doing anything until I have completed Beta 4 promotion AND have found time and enthusiasm to dive into this once again AND it is clear what exactly it is that we want.
Maybe @Grey Roger feels like diving into the code to remove all "memory" code altogether though.

While that does not strike me as a good "final" solution, maybe it will keep you happy for the time being.
Doesn't seem very wise to me though, because it means there will be incredible exploits due to all NPC ships and forts basically being idiots.

 

[Grey Roger]

Well, I'll be nice and upgrade this to "High" priority for all it's worth.
We still need to reach some agreement on how to handle this though.

My thinking is that the date you were last seen can be stored as well so that after a certain period of time, you can be forgotten again.
This period of time can be dynamically related to the difference between your actual relations and -60.
So if you are at -61, the memory may reset after 2 days. But if you're at -119 then they'll remember for 60 days.

Does that sound like a promising solution?

Thinking more about it, that could be a reasonable compromise. -61 is the relation you'll have if you have not personally done anything to upset them but are just hostile because their nation is at war with yours. And 2 days is peanuts; on worldmap you take that long just to turn around, and in Direct Sail it's 2 hours. On the other hand, if you've been actively hostile and are at relation -119 then you're Public Enemy Number 1 and there's a reason they're looking out for you. On the other other hand, if you weren't hostile when you last visited, e.g. @Hylie Pistof's case where he was Portuguese and friendly on the last visit, the fort wouldn't remember you at all. Portugal declares war on France, he sails into Tortuga under a false French flag, the fort has no reason to be suspicious (unless it passes the false flag check) and he's safe.

Can you also store the ship in which you were last recognised as hostile? It's reasonable enough that if I've just pirated the SP_CastelF and then sail back into Santiago in the same ship, they'll get a bit suspicious. But if they're looking for SP_CastelF Siroco and I sail into Santiago in some other type (it has to be type, otherwise you can defeat the system by simply renaming your ship) then they shouldn't know it's me unless they pass the false flag check.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Thinking more about it, that could be a reasonable compromise. -61 is the relation you'll have if you have not personally done anything to upset them but are just hostile because their nation is at war with yours. And 2 days is peanuts; on worldmap you take that long just to turn around, and in Direct Sail it's 2 hours. On the other hand, if you've been actively hostile and are at relation -119 then you're Public Enemy Number 1 and there's a reason they're looking out for you. On the other other hand, if you weren't hostile when you last visited, e.g. @Hylie Pistof's case where he was Portuguese and friendly on the last visit, the fort wouldn't remember you at all. Portugal declares war on France, he sails into Tortuga under a false French flag, the fort has no reason to be suspicious (unless it passes the false flag check) and he's safe.

Now we're getting somewhere! I indeed thought it wasn't such an unreasonable solution to handle it like that.

Though I admittedly don't yet know how it would work out in the game.
Specifically the "DirectSail 1 hour = 1 day" effect might throw it out of whack pretty badly.
If you're "only slightly hostile" and get recognized, you would only need to stay away from the fort for two HOURS before you could try again.
That.... doesn't sound right.

To implement it, all that needs doing is to figure out how to create a "periodic forgetting function".
I am thinking to use a quest case with an expiry date that is added to an NPC instead of to the player.
Something like that might work.

Can you also store the ship in which you were last recognised as hostile? It's reasonable enough that if I've just pirated the SP_CastelF and then sail back into Santiago in the same ship, they'll get a bit suspicious. But if they're looking for SP_CastelF Siroco and I sail into Santiago in some other type (it has to be type, otherwise you can defeat the system by simply renaming your ship) then they shouldn't know it's me unless they pass the false flag check.

Possible? Yes. But I am afraid that might open up a can of worms related to your fleet. What if you swap ships?

 

[Grey Roger]

Now we're getting somewhere! I indeed thought it wasn't such an unreasonable solution to handle it like that.

Though I admittedly don't yet know how it would work out in the game.
Specifically the "DirectSail 1 hour = 1 day" effect might throw it out of whack pretty badly.
If you're "only slightly hostile" and get recognized, you would only need to stay away from the fort for two HOURS before you could try again.
That.... doesn't sound right.

To implement it, all that needs doing is to figure out how to create a "periodic forgetting function".
I am thinking to use a quest case with an expiry date that is added to an NPC instead of to the player.
Something like that might work.

Maybe a two-stage quest. Stage 1 triggers when you leave the island and starts the countdown, stage 2 is when the countdown expires. So you can't just get out of cannon range, cruise around a couple of hours and sail straight back in. You have to be away and clear before the fort can stop tracking you.

Possible? Yes. But I am afraid that might open up a can of worms related to your fleet. What if you swap ships?

Check if the ship the fort remembered is your current ship or in any of the companion slots?

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Meh. The game has become too complicated to bother with anymore.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Maybe a two-stage quest. Stage 1 triggers when you leave the island and starts the countdown, stage 2 is when the countdown expires. So you can't just get out of cannon range, cruise around a couple of hours and sail straight back in. You have to be away and clear before the fort can stop tracking you.

That sounds about right. Not entirely sure yet how to set that up; that'll require some figuring out.

Check if the ship the fort remembered is your current ship or in any of the companion slots?

Probably possible. Does add a further layer of complexity to it though.

Meh. The game has become too complicated to bother with anymore.

Complicated? Because hostile ports are dangerous places to go to?

If you want to just go about your business and not be bothered by all this complexity, why don't you start the game as Personal?
Then you're only at war with the Pirates and, unless you are the one to start hostilities, it will stay that way.
Far simpler to deal with then.

I do admit that the former broken functionality now actually working does indeed add more complexity to the game.
It is meant to, because that complexity allows a lot more different scenarios to play out than was ever the case before.

But I can imagine some people might want to return to a simpler time.
Which is why I have already asked, approximately 5,124 times over the past year, if there is a desire for an "Arcade Mode" on this sort of functionality.
Though all the previous times I asked that question, I got no usable response at all.
So what happens then is exactly what you can expect: A whole load of nothing.

You want something different and aren't going to make the required changes yourself?
Then really the very least you can do is to describe quite clearly what it is that you want.

I have no "magic wand" to make things better.
It takes thinking through, figuring out the best approach, trying that, then finding what needs improving and making further changes.
Substantial time and effort involved because the work doesn't do itself. (Though I've lost count of the number of times I have wished that it did!)
And as I've been saying elsewhere, I don't HAVE time. And what time I do have gets split over a gazillion different things.

 

[Grey Roger]

That sounds about right. Not entirely sure yet how to set that up; that'll require some figuring out.

Your original suggestion for the mechanism was:

I am thinking to use a quest case with an expiry date that is added to an NPC instead of to the player.

First have a quest case which detects that you're on the worldmap, triggered like this:

       Pchar.quest.start_countdown.win_condition.l1 = "MapEnter";
       Pchar.quest.start_countdown.win_condition = "start_countdown";

Then quest case "start_countdown" is your one with the expiry date.

Probably possible. Does add a further layer of complexity to it though.

I don't know where or how you'd check if the player's ship is the stored one, but the basic logic would be something like this:

if (<player's ship> == <stored ship>) return true;
for (n=1; n<4; n++)
 {if (companion ship(n) == <stored ship>) return true;}
return false;

I'm not sure off-hand how to get <player's ship> or <companion ship(n)>, but presumably there is a function to find what type of ship is used by the player or in any given companion slot. <stored ship> will have been copied from <player's ship> at some point where the fort is remembering you.