Poll [4.1] Player is not informed of relevant skills and perks for land profit

[Tingyun]

@ANSEL 's dedicated playtesting has uncovered another issue, and while it proved "not a bug", it did end up being a pretty clear example of a needed feature. I am making a report on his behalf so we can get it resolved. Past discussion for reference: Unconfirmed Bug - Drastic fall in profit from your land? | PiratesAhoy!

ISSUE

Profit from land does not use quatermaster skills and perks (basic commerce, advanced commerce, land owner), instead looking to the player personally. This makes sense logically, but it can lead to unexpected results for players.

Players are never informed of this. Indeed, the quatermaster has "landowner" as a contributing perk, when in actual mechanics it never actually contributes. On the whole, most players would reasonably assume the quatermaster's skills handle this, as @ANSEL did.

SUGGESTED RESOLUTION

1) remove landowner from quatermaster contributing perk list. Since its only effect is on land, and that is always a personal skill, it is only misleading to have it listed.

2) Add a note to the commerce skill description when right clicking in the character screen that Quatermaster commerce and perks do not affect land profits. Something like:

"Land profits are only affected by the player character personal commerce skill and perks."

3) Change the perk descriptions for basic commerce, advanced commerce, and landowner to include a note like the below at the end of the current description:

"The player character must personally have this perk in order to affect profits from land."

 

[Pieter Boelen]

SUGGESTED RESOLUTION

All sound like some solid ideas!

Should be easy enough to do too. The descriptions are in the RESOURCE\INI\TEXTS\English folder.
@Levis can probably tell you how to change the Quartermaster perk contributions.

 

[Tingyun]

@Pieter Boelen No need, I know how to change officer perk contributions, I did so for my transfer of ship defense skills from doctor to first mate in my experiment.

However, if this is to be done anytime in the next several weeks someone else will probably have to do it. For the next two weeks I am mostly on mobile, just had a small moment on my computer this morning.

The good news is it shouldn't take someone more than 2 minutes, just delete the line for landowner under quatermaster in init_officertypes (if that is adopted), and cut and paste the description I wrote into the RESOURCE\INI\TEXTS\English folder, as you mention, if that is the resulting decision. I included a cut and pastable description so as to make this really quick for someone else to do.

Speaking of which, in my time zone early morning is about to end and the workday start, and that's it for me for now. I think I followed up with everything I had left, I will take one final look, and then I will see you all sporadically for the next couple of weeks.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I moved this to the Bug Tracker while keeping it as a Feature Request so that we'll remember to do this soon.

 

[Levis]

Well you are not there when managing your land so you are managing your land from your ship probably. So that means you could ask your quartermaster for help right?
So I'd say to make sure there is less confusion an easier way would be to just use the perks contributed to you in this case.

 

[Tingyun]

It is a good point, but there is something to a landed gentleman learning to manage their own estates. If truly entirely entrusted to others, one would expect the "management fees"/ covert embezzlement that the player would be too far away to prevent exceeding any additional profit.

From a gameplay perspective, there is already too little for the player character to gain from perks once beyond the low levels. Everything gets covered by officers. Keeping a small incentive for the player to himself be able to purchase a couple of perks at higher levels and see the effects of some advancement seems good, especially in such a tangential area as land profits.

Basically, it is the player's education as a properly astute landed gentleman.

 

[Grey Roger]

The properly astute landed gentleman hires an accountant to manage his accounts. In this case, that's your quartermaster.

As for "management fees" / covert embezzlement, the quartermaster is equally capable of doing that on the ship, except that he knows that if he's found out, he's probably going swimming. It's a bit of a giveaway as even the least astute landed gentleman is going to notice if the income from his estates goes down after hiring the new accountant.

From a gameplay perspective, this is a small amount of free money coming in on a regular basis. It's hardly a major source of income. The main reason the player is likely to buy "Landowner" for himself is that he's got all the other useful ones already and has a couple of points to spend - it's either that or cooking, and he's not interested in cooking.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Well you are not there when managing your land so you are managing your land from your ship probably. So that means you could ask your quartermaster for help right?

I figure that getting the "Land Owner" perk is basically equivalent to the player getting an accountant as @Grey Roger suggests.

From a gameplay perspective, this is a small amount of free money coming in on a regular basis. It's hardly a major source of income. The main reason the player is likely to buy "Landowner" for himself is that he's got all the other useful ones already and has a couple of points to spend - it's either that or cooking, and he's not interested in cooking.

Hopefully some time soon(ish), Wealth and the resulting Fame will become a fair bit more important.
But.... not yet.

 

[Tingyun]

I agree with Pieter's point that the quartermaster cannot possibly personally manage the estates. And I agree with Levis and Grey Roger's point that neither can the player. Both are on the ship.

Which means that if we try to understand what is realistically going on in the background is that the player hires various managers, probably different ones for the different estates in different locations, and they manage it. Of course, we don't bother forcing the player to micromanage this, it just is the conceptual thing going on in the background.

And an astute, savvy landed gentleman can pick the right managers, and make himself the sort of person that people don't lightly embezzle from. That is something the quatermaster cannot substitute for, and if he could, then he would find it very easy to covertly just divert the profits to himself (in a way he cannot do from on ship profits, as those are much more discoverable). But it is a property of the individual anyway, the sort of person who can make the right judgements and project the right attitude and competence.

On gameplay, @Grey Roger you are making my point exactly. It is a SMALL additional source of income, and thus PERFECT for the additional thing the player can hope for once he gets the more important perks. Hence, it creates advancement, while not limiting the player, to keep it personal rather than officer based.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The way I figure it, it is the player who IS the land owner and should therefore be the one to have that perk.
It is the player's "winning personality" that influences how things go ashore on his estate, even if he's not there.
So I prefer if it remains a "player-only" thing.

But I do understand it is more "fuzzy logic" and might be difficult to understand for players.
As such, I won't stop you if you guys decide a Quartermaster should be able to contribute it instead.

 

[Tingyun]

@Pieter Boelen

I am very much with you on this one. Both from a realistic perspective, and especially from a gameplay perspective. I really like the present system.

And it will be easy to clarify to players--I already included cut and pastable quotes to do just that.

 

[Levis]

How does land owning work again? it's been a very long time I did it.
How hard would it be for us to have you assign an officer to the land you own and have it determined on his skills instead?

 

[Tingyun]

I don't think we need to turn this into Sim Caribbean Landowner. It would just be micromanagement with little payoff, and we would lose the gameplay incentive for the player to purchase these less-powerful perks once he is done with the normal ones. And that preserves a valuable feeling of advancement in the later levels, while not limiting the player in any important respect in the early ones.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

How does land owning work again? it's been a very long time I did it.

1. You get promoted
2. The "acres of land owned" number is increased
3. Every day at midnight, you get some wealth; more land = more wealth

How hard would it be for us to have you assign an officer to the land you own and have it determined on his skills instead?

VERY difficult! Your land doesn't physically exist and is just a number. It isn't actually anywhere.

 

[Grey Roger]

I figure that getting the "Land Owner" perk is basically equivalent to the player getting an accountant as @Grey Roger suggests.

Yes, your quartermaster.

On gameplay, @Grey Roger you are making my point exactly. It is a SMALL additional source of income, and thus PERFECT for the additional thing the player can hope for once he gets the more important perks. Hence, it creates advancement, while not limiting the player, to keep it personal rather than officer based.

No, that is not the point I am making. The point I am making is that it does not create advancement at all. By the time the player can be bothered to buy "Landowner", he's probably making enough from other sources that it's next to irrelevant. Personally I probably take it earlier than most people because I don't bother with quite a lot of other perks either.

If the quartermaster can't contribute the "Commerce" perks, including "Landowner", then I need to get the whole lot myself. I've probably got a decent "Commerce" skill by that time as well. So, instead of creating advancement, what it creates is a reason for me to go for those perks and then dump the quartermaster, who is evidently less useful than some players thought.

 

[Tingyun]

@Grey Roger

No, the quatermaster is on the ship, he can't manage the land. The player can use his own charisma and personal astuteness in selecting the right people who can, but they aren't the quartermaster.

Yes, land profits are never much, but even a small bonus can create a spirit of advancement in the game. No reason to remove all usefulness from the player getting those last perks. Knowing a couple thousand more coins will come in per-day is actually a pretty nice bonus for the high level guys with nothing else to pick.

The Quatermaster certainly DOES contribute commerce perks, for all purposes except land. Meaning all the major purposes.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Yes, your quartermaster.

I mean someone ashore to manage your estate.

Anyway, see post #10 above.

If the quartermaster can't contribute the "Commerce" perks, including "Landowner", then I need to get the whole lot myself. I've probably got a decent "Commerce" skill by that time as well. So, instead of creating advancement, what it creates is a reason for me to go for those perks and then dump the quartermaster, who is evidently less useful than some players thought.

To clarify, ONLY the "Land Owner" perk was suggested to be taken away from the Quartermaster.
Those other ones would remain of course.

 

[ANSEL]

A new type of an officer" Manager" who stays at land after hiring him, maybe.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Are we sure it is worth a huge amount of effort?

Either we keep the contributions as they are and make the changes as per the opening post, or we make the Quartermaster contribute.
Both options only take a few minutes to do.

 

[Levis]

For now I'd say just let the quartermaster contribute and move this to build 15 brainstorming where we can see if we can and want to expand on this.