Planned Feature Balancing and Repurposing Reputation Gain

[Pieter Boelen]

Quite the reverse. If you are Horror of the High Seas then they won't want to surrender at all, the reason being that it won't do them any good as you're likely to kill them all anyway. Whereas if you're Hero then they know they can expect to be treated well so there's no point fighting to the death.

The benefit of being Horror of the High Seas might be that morale drops more quickly. Doesn't that have some effect on their ability to fight, e.g. hit points? You know the captain attacking you is utterly ruthless and has a history of taking bigger ships than his own, so you're doomed - it's brown trousers time! So the enemy won't surrender but your fights should be easier.

Uhm... Yes, what you said.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I renamed this thread to focus purely on the reputation rebalancing. Any other parts of the game that should be balanced deserve their own threads.

To summarize, here are the points I still remember from this:

- Return the consistent reputation increases from random citizens (eg. telling them their wallet is about to fall out their pocket)

- Distinguish between "small" and "large" actions. Small ones can change your reputation only from Swindler to Matey.
Only large ones can make you a Bloody Terror or Hero. These would probably need to be related to sea battles or preventing a town capture*.
I imagine having your reputation go down should be easier than up.
Repeatedly executing prisoners and especially the whole crew of ships should definitely do it and those are easily repeatable events during regular play.
Right now, I don't think we have many "big" events that would provide a reason for the player to be considered downright heroic.

- Add extra advantages to actually being a Bloody Terror. Otherwise there is no point in role-playing as a bad guy.

- Add extra advantages to being a Hero. These are already in place, but I think they may be fairly subtle for now.
If we make it more worthwhile to be a bad guy, we should also do the opposite.

* = That would require us to also add the potential for randomized town capture events in the first place.

 

[Grey Roger]

I definitely don't like the new reputation system.

It's annoying but understandable that you don't always get the reputation gain when you give money to a beggar or tell people to be careful with their purses. But you also don't often get the reputation gain for being a bodyguard overnight and then refusing payment, and that has to be more heroic than any grocery run (i.e. store delivery or fetch quest).

And then there's this, which happens right after completing a governor ship-hunting quest:

To be fair, it's not that bad because there also seems to be a big reputation gain right after you capture or sink the target ship. It just looks pointless to add a reputation point and then immediately remove it again.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Uh? Why is your reputation being decreased there?

The bodyguard code hasn't been touched and should be the same as it always was.

As for the purse thing, I reckon we should put that back how it was but fix it to a small range where it works.

 

[Grey Roger]

Something has changed with bodyguard reputation. Sometimes when I've done it and refused the gem, I get the message about +2 reputation. Most times I don't get the message. It may be affected by the same code which affects reputation gain from purses and beggars.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Odd, I didn't think that was the Enc_walker.c dialog file as well? But I can't check right now....

 

[Grey Roger]

Uh? Why is your reputation being decreased there?

The bodyguard code hasn't been touched and should be the same as it always was.

It has been touched. Mystery solved. From "Enc_resident_dialog.c":

    case "burglarrep":
       if(rand(GetDifficulty()+1)<1) //Depending on your difficulty this happens more often or not.
       {
         ChangeCharacterReputation(pchar, 2); //Changed to 2 for balancing -Levis
       }
       DialogExit();
       NextDiag.CurrentNode = NextDiag.TempNode;
     break;

 

[Levis]

ah, I tought that was from picking pockets not from the bodyguard mission. Why the hell is all of that in the enc walker ....

 

[Pieter Boelen]

It has been touched. Mystery solved. From "Enc_resident_dialog.c":

    case "burglarrep":
       if(rand(GetDifficulty()+1)<1) //Depending on your difficulty this happens more often or not.
       {
         ChangeCharacterReputation(pchar, 2); //Changed to 2 for balancing -Levis
       }
       DialogExit();
       NextDiag.CurrentNode = NextDiag.TempNode;
     break;

Ah, thanks for catching! Indeed we should return that to how it was.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

It has been touched. Mystery solved. From "Enc_resident_dialog.c":

    case "burglarrep":
       if(rand(GetDifficulty()+1)<1) //Depending on your difficulty this happens more often or not.
       {
         ChangeCharacterReputation(pchar, 2); //Changed to 2 for balancing -Levis
       }
       DialogExit();
       NextDiag.CurrentNode = NextDiag.TempNode;
     break;

As per yesterday, this has been returned to remove the random element.

 

[Levis]

Moved this topic here.
We really need to decide what we wanna do with the reputation. Could some give a recap of all idea's now?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Short version as far as I'm concerned:
- Distinguish between "small" and "large" acts: "Small" acts can only change your reputation between Swindler and Bloke, "large" acts go all the way.
- Remove the random element from the Enc_walker reputation changes, but define these as "small" acts.
- Ensure there actually are "large" acts to become a Hero. Becoming a Terror should already be quite easy based on how you treat captured ships.
- Have characters and ships treat you differently based on your reputation AND your fame level.
- Final fame is scaled by reputation; eg. with the same "fame number", a Hero/Terror will be more famous than a Neutral character.
- Actually have Fame influence the game in more ways than just a disadvantage on false flag detection.

 

[Levis]

So how are we on this?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Nothing new done. Actually, I had a comment on this: The +5 rep points for promotion might be a bit much.
Some quests where you help other people only give +1 and a promotion is a reward for "you doing your job".
So perhaps reduce that to +1 too?

 

[Grey Roger]

If you're going to reduce the reputation gain for promotions, balance it by raising the reputation gain on quests.

At the moment, having a good reputation is required for several side quests and having "Hero" reputation gets you into any store or shipyard regardless of nationality. I suggest that having a bad reputation opens up some dialog options in side quests, e.g. the ones where you threaten someone only work if you have a bad reputation; and being "Horror of the High Seas" could also get you into any store or shipyard, the reason being the storekeeper or shipyard owner doesn't want to be your next victim.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

If you're going to reduce the reputation gain for promotions, balance it by raising the reputation gain on quests.

That would need to be done on a case-by-case basis and should therefore ideally be done by a player adding in the appropriate reputations wherever that're missing.

At the moment, having a good reputation is required for several side quests and having "Hero" reputation gets you into any store or shipyard regardless of nationality.

I reckon we should change the code somehow so that it is quite hard to become either a Hero or a Horror of the High Seas.
If that is too hard, I would want it to be harder to become a Hero. As that comes with a huge advantage, I wouldn't want it to be too easy.
Ideally both extremes should come with appropriate advantages, but that might have to remain a long-term goal for now.

I suggest that having a bad reputation opens up some dialog options in side quests, e.g. the ones where you threaten someone only work if you have a bad reputation

That seems like a bit of reverse logic. Threatening other characters should give you a bad reputation.

being "Horror of the High Seas" could also get you into any store or shipyard, the reason being the storekeeper or shipyard owner doesn't want to be your next victim.

Something like that is already in place in PROGRAM\Characters\CharacterUtilite.c ; the TradeCheck function there includes a low-reputation "force component" check.

 

[Grey Roger]

I reckon we should change the code somehow so that it is quite hard to become either a Hero or a Horror of the High Seas.
If that is too hard, I would want it to be harder to become a Hero. As that comes with a huge advantage, I wouldn't want it to be too easy.

It won't be easy if you reduce the reputation gain on promotion. Also, if "Horror of the High Seas" has the same advantage as "Hero", i.e. being able to trade in any store regardless of nation, then they should be equally difficult.

That seems like a bit of reverse logic. Threatening other characters should give you a bad reputation.

It can be interpreted either way. If you try threatening the guy who demands money before telling you where Raoul Rheims went, for example, and he knows you're a good guy, then he'll laugh in your face and say something like "I know you don't kill people in cold blood, so give me the money or I walk away". If he knows you're a bad guy then he'll be more co-operative. The point is, you were looking for advantages that could go with a bad reputation, and I was trying to suggest one.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

It won't be easy if you reduce the reputation gain on promotion. Also, if "Horror of the High Seas" has the same advantage as "Hero", i.e. being able to trade in any store regardless of nation, then they should be equally difficult.

Logically speaking, it should probably be much easier to get your reputation down than up.
I also didn't quite intend to have them the same. Though I do reckon that "playing as a bloody bastard" should be an option.
Right now, I don't think it is. Not that I would want to, anyway....

It can be interpreted either way. If you try threatening the guy who demands money before telling you where Raoul Rheims went, for example, and he knows you're a good guy, then he'll laugh in your face and say something like "I know you don't kill people in cold blood, so give me the money or I walk away". If he knows you're a bad guy then he'll be more co-operative. The point is, you were looking for advantages that could go with a bad reputation, and I was trying to suggest one.

By that reasoning, what if certain options aren't available/don't work when you have a "too high" reputation,
but using those options does also make your reputation drop further.

 

[Grey Roger]

Logically speaking, it should probably be much easier to get your reputation down than up.
I also didn't quite intend to have them the same. Though I do reckon that "playing as a bloody bastard" should be an option.
Right now, I don't think it is. Not that I would want to, anyway....

Normally I play a good guy. But it might be interesting to go the other way, at least once, if only to explore other options within the game...

By that reasoning, what if certain options aren't available/don't work when you have a "too high" reputation,
but using those options does also make your reputation drop further.

Not much, though, otherwise it becomes too easy to descend the whole way to "Horror of the High Seas" and get whatever benefit that brings.

Suggestion:
Routine stuff, e.g. warning someone that they've dropped their purse / distracting them and stealing the purse, gets you automatic + / -1 reputation, to Matey / Swindler. Matey is enough to get you entry to reputation-restricted side quests, so Swindler ought to be enough to get the option to successfully threaten someone where a quest permits it.
Less routine stuff, e.g. bodyguard, promotion / hitting someone who hasn't drawn a blade, being caught while using a thief's knife gets you an automatic + / -2 reputation, perhaps limited to Dashing / Bloody Terror. Since you can attack someone any time you like whereas bodyguard takes time and promotions only happen infrequently, this grants your wish that it's easier to get your reputation down than to get it up.
Minor quests e.g. escort which are completed honestly get you +2 or +3; completing the same quests by double-crossing gets you -2 or -3. No limit - this is one way to go the final step to Hero / Horror of the High Seas.
Major quests e.g. most side quests get you +4 or +5 if completed honestly, -4 or -5 if completed by double-crossing. This definitely can go the whole way to Hero / Horror of the High Seas.

(Note: "Bloody Terror" is the second worst reputation, the opposite of "Dashing". The ultimate evil is "Horror of the High Seas". )

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That sounds about right. What is the complete reputation range again? Can't remember now. I think it is a full range of 100 points with 50 being neutral.
That means that with 16 escort quests, you could get up to "Hero". Faster with what you call a "major quest".

I wonder if some link with fame can be implemented. After all, you might be one helluva nice guy. But if your fame is low, then nobody knows that.
Which suggests that perhaps all checks for exceptionally high/low reputations should include a fame check as well.
By that reckoning, being a "Hero" will not be enough to trade at all nations; you'd have to be a FAMOUS hero.