Unconfirmed Bug Brigantine and brig stats

[Tingyun]

Dreaming of the days when I can play again, this morning I looked at the ship stats on my mobile device from the ship extraction tool here. Noticed a few odd things, most significantly:

Tier 6:
Brigantine has a speed of 9.9, turn rate of 60

Naval light brig is speed 11.5, turn 105

Snow brig is speed 12.5, turn 90

Odd thing 1) Brigantine is much slower than the brigs, and generally pretty slow compared to comparable war vessels. Is this correct? I though they were fast and maneuverable, but the brigantine seems only a little better than merchant vessels in speed.

Tier 5:

Brigantine is speed 11 turn 100

Odd thing 2) This is a huge jump in speed of the tier 5 version over tier 6 version for the brigantine


Heavy brig: "Rn_brig" and us version are Speed 11.5 turn 105. They have the exact same cannons amount, caliber, and crew

Odd thing 3) Weren't brigantines generally smaller? I imagine though they are using the same hull, in which case the question is more, is the brig sail configuration so universally faster and better turning than brigantine?


Heavy brig: "brig" (i.e. Generic one) is speed 13 turn 90, otherwise equivalent to the Rn_brig and us version in cannons and combat performance.

Odd thing 4) why does the generic brig suddenly become substantially faster (11.5 to 13) but less maneuverable (105 to 90) than the other versions of same size brig? Price, encounter periods, all are the same so they don't explain it. The arcade stats are the same in speed, leading me to wonder if someone changed the others and forgot this one.

 

[Grey Roger]

Dreaming of the days when I can play again, this morning I looked at the ship stats on my mobile device from the ship extraction tool here. Noticed a few odd things, most significantly:

Tier 6:
Brigantine has a speed of 9.9, turn rate of 60

Naval light brig is speed 11.5, turn 105

Snow brig is speed 12.5, turn 90

Odd thing 1) Brigantine is much slower than the brigs, and generally pretty slow compared to comparable war vessels. Is this correct? I though they were fast and maneuverable, but the brigantine seems only a little better than merchant vessels in speed.

By "Brigantine", presumably you mean the "Castell Friedrichsburg" types, alias "FR_CastelF", "NL_CastelF" and "SP_CastelF"? I've noticed that as well - its general performance seems comparable to a Heavy East Indiaman, though perhaps capable of sailing a little closer to the wind than the big galleon.

Also, the model seems significantly larger than the snow brig, a comparison easily visible when you're playing "Ardent" because you're probably in a snow brig when you're trying to capture the payroll ship, a "SP_CastelF".

 

[Tingyun]

@Grey Roger indeed, that is them.

Maybe The stats should be closer to the tier 5 version, but since I don't understand sailing at all I'm not sure. How should a brigantine and brig compare? The brig faster from the extra sails, while the brigantine more maneuverable? Or something else?

I can try making some changes and posting in a couple of days, but I'd love if you or other experienced players, or @Pieter Boelen with his sailing knowledge, could weigh in with advice first (or of course I'd be happy to have someone better qualified than me do the changes, either works)

(Because I'm pretty uneducated and uninformed on these issues myself)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I can try making some changes and posting in a couple of days, but I'd love if you or other experienced players, or @Pieter Boelen with his sailing knowledge, could weigh in with advice first (or of course I'd be happy to have someone better qualified than me do the changes, either works)

My experience with sailboats is, for the time being, severely limited.
I know mostly motor ships.

 

[Armada]

For what it's worth, I used both types of Brigantine in my most recent playthrough, and noted how the Heavy Brig seemed to run circles around them, so I agree there seems to be something odd about these stats.

Personally, I would expect a brigantine to be more manoeuvrable but slower with the wind versus a brig, as well as being able to sail closer to the wind. I reckon the Heavy Brig needs to at least have its turn rate reduced a fair bit, and the Castell Friedrichsburg needs a slight increase to both speed and turn rate, but I'm open to other suggestions.

 

[Tingyun]

@Armada thanks for lending your expertise.

As a possible implementation of your above suggestion:

Currently, the RN and US heavy brigs are sped 11.5 turn 105. The generic heavy brig is speed 13.0 and turn 90. When you say make it less maneuverable, do you mean the RN and US version?

Possible change 1) if so, reducing that version maneuverability, or taking what amounts to taking the worst of each of these stats, making all heavy brigs speed 11.5 turn 90.

This then unifies the two kinds of heavy brigs, consistent with the rest of their stats.

The tier 5 brigantine is speed 11.0 turn 100. With the above changes to brig stats, it seems to match your suggestion, the brigantine becomes a more maneuverable but slower version.

Then the problem is the ultra slow tier 6 brigantines. So

Possible change 2) move them to same speed and maneuverability as the tier 5 brigantine, speed 11 turn 100.

The tier 6 brigantine would still be strictly worse than the tier 6 naval light brig, but it is also lower cost, so maybe justified.

EDIT: One potential downside is that at tier 5 then the 6th rate frigate and sloop of war are both much faster than the heavy brig. Not sure if that makes sense or not? The frigate is at least much more expensive, but he sloop of war would be the same price and much faster, 13 vs 11.5 speed of the heavy brig. The sloop of war has 16 guns caliber 12, the heavy brig 22 of caliber 9, and he sloop of war has about 400 more cargo capacity, otherwise fairly comparable.

Perhaps something should be done to preserve the brig as a choice against the sloop of war? It does have a bit lower turn (85 for sloop of war), but not sure that makes up for the cargo and speed.

 

[Tingyun]

deleted

 

[Grey Roger]

The problem identified is that the heavy brig, presumably the naval one, is too maneouvrable. Perhaps drop its turn to 95 and raise its speed to 12, so that it's still a little slower and a little more manoeuvrable than the naval one, but not by as much. Leave the generic one alone, it's not a problem.

There are two types of 6th rate frigate, the "Postillionen" types and the "Greyhound" types. The latter are a later version, lacking the bowsprit mast. They're the ones with 9lb guns. Perhaps either raise them to 12lb or drop the "Postillionen" to 9lb to match. Comments on the "Greyhound" types indicate that their speed used to be 13.2 and was dropped for some reason, making them also slower than their predecessors, so maybe put it back up to 13.2.

And, as @Armada suggest, raise both the speed and turn rate for the "Castell Friedrichsburg" types. It's a "versatile" type, a hybrid merchant/trader, comparable to the snow brig but heavier. So perhaps raise its speed and turn to 11.5 and 85 respectively - a significant boost to its current rating but not enough to match the more nimble, pure military types, and not quite as agile as the lighter snow brig.

 

[Tingyun]

@Grey Roger why preserve the difference between the generic heavy brig and the RN and US versions?

They have exactly the same stats in every respect except speed and maneuverability, and even on those two the arcade speed and maneuverability are the same (giving rise to the possibility the difference is an oversight when some later rebalancing was done for realistic). Unless there is a difference in their rigging and sail configuration that gives rise to this? If there is much to distinguish the models perhaps their other stats should be made slightly different as well.

Also, why not bring the tier 6 brigantine up to the same Manuverability as the tier 5 version? Leaving it at 85 seems a bit harsh. Also, given what Armada suggests about brigantines being slightly slower but more maneuverable, probably it shouldn't get the full bump to 11.5 speed you propose, as then it would be as fast as the naval light brig. I think the tier 5 version's 11 speed 100 maneuverability seems to work well at tier 6 as well, given the comparison brigs.

Basically, as in my suggested stats 2 posts above, if brigantines are generally considered more maneuverable but slower than brigs, as Armada suggests, then that should guide choices at both tier 5 and tier 6.

Your frigate suggestions make sense, I agree with those.

EDIT: the tier 5 brigs and brigantines could probably use an increase in cargo capacity, right now they are at 1000, well under the tier 6 snow brigs and brigantine, and much less than the tier 5 comparables likes sloops of war.

 

[MrMundy]

Had the same experiences, also the heavy brig seems too manuverable overall. I played with it and it realy doesnt feel right, then again, I have no idea about those ships. It certainly can outmanuver everything that posses a threat to it though.

My experience with sailboats is, for the time being, severely limited.
I know mostly motor ships.

Just strap motors onto the Unité Frigattes then

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Didn't we already do just that?

 

[Tingyun]

One final thing I noticed: A lot of ships (some frigates, barks, sloops of war, and brigs) all have this exact same entry for their sailing characteristics:

// Brigs were difficult to sail upwind
refShip.ClosestPoint = 0.295;
refShip.BestPoint = 0.9;

It looks like the brig was used as a basis for a lot of different non-brig ships, which were given different mast models, speeds, etc, but then the above entry was never changed to reflect their new sail configuration. I imagine there should be some difference between those light frigates/barks/sloops of war/brigs in these sailing characteristics, though I wouldn't know what.

 

[Grey Roger]

@Grey Roger why preserve the difference between the generic heavy brig and the RN and US versions?

Why have different models if they're all going to behave exactly the same? One of the reasons PoTC is such a rich setting is because there are different ships with different abilities.

Also, why not bring the tier 6 brigantine up to the same Manuverability as the tier 5 version? Leaving it at 85 seems a bit harsh. Also, given what Armada suggests about brigantines being slightly slower but more maneuverable, probably it shouldn't get the full bump to 11.5 speed you propose, as then it would be as fast as the naval light brig. I think the tier 5 version's 11 speed 100 maneuverability seems to work well at tier 6 as well, given the comparison brigs.

The tier 5 "Brigantina1" is a pure warship. The "CastelF" is not. One is optimised for handling in combat, the other is a general purpose trade and fighting ship.

EDIT: the tier 5 brigs and brigantines could probably use an increase in cargo capacity, right now they are at 1000, well under the tier 6 snow brigs and brigantine, and much less than the tier 5 comparables likes sloops of war.

Or we could just leave them as pure fighting ships. Perhaps one reason the multipurpose ships aren't as fast is because they have the extra cargo capacity which makes them multi-role.

 

[Tingyun]

Why have different models if they're all going to behave exactly the same? One of the reasons PoTC is such a rich setting is because there are different ships with different abilities.

Sure, if there were any other differences between them, or there was a coherent choice to make the generic brig different than the RN and US models, but a review of the ships_init file indicates that my suspicion was correct--When the rebalancing of realistic ship stats was done, it appears that the generic heavy brig was accidentally overlooked, because it is not clearly marked as "heavy brig" in the file. This is clear from the way the other changed heavy brigs are commented, and makes sense given every single stat (including arcade speeds) are exactly the same between them.

If you want to actually make them different in a sensible way in stats, that sounds fine. But it is silly to insist on preserving an isolated difference that was only created because a change meant for all heavy brigs was accidentally not applied to them because they aren't as clearly marked in the file.

The tier 5 "Brigantina1" is a pure warship. The "CastelF" is not. One is optimised for handling in combat, the other is a general purpose trade and fighting ship.

I'm rather unclear why you think the tier 6 brigantine is fundamentally different from the tier 5 ones in combat role. Because it has a slightly larger cargo capacity? The Shnyava2 Snow Brig has nearly as much cargo capacity (1450 to 1550) and is a combat vessel.

The CastelF tier 6 brigantines have 1500 HP and 16 guns of caliber 9. That is the same as the naval light brig.

Going up a tier to 5 to the brigantina1 only increases that to 1750 HP and 22 guns of caliber 9.

Besides, seems far more sensible and immersive to me to make brigantine rigging give consistent tradeoffs compared to Brig rigging, along the lines Armada suggest (higher manuverability, lower speed), rather than do what you propose and have the tier 6 brigantine same in speed and lower manuverability than the comparable combat brig. That would make the tier 6 brig/brigantine difference the opposite of the tier 5 brig/brigantine difference, at which point there is just no consistent conception of their differences in rigging at all.

Or we could just leave them as pure fighting ships. Perhaps one reason the multipurpose ships aren't as fast is because they have the extra cargo capacity which makes them multi-role.

The tier 5 brigantine/brigs certainly do need some extra cargo space. This isn't a "trade vessel" vs "combat vessel question" at all.

Right now, they are at 1000 cargo.

Most tier 5 sloops of war have 1400 cargo capacity. Those are combat vessels of similar size, cost, and weight.

The smaller tier 6 snow brig Shnyava2 has 1450 cargo capacity, and 20 guns of caliber 9 to the tier 5 brig 22 guns of caliber 9.

So I don't think this is a combat/trade issue, the 1000 is unreasonably low given comparable combat vessels, no reason not to bump them up a bit to 1300 at least.

 

[Grey Roger]

Sure, if there were any other differences between them, or there was a coherent choice to make the generic brig different than the RN and US models, but a review of the ships_init file indicates that my suspicion was correct--When the rebalancing of realistic ship stats was done, it appears that the generic heavy brig was accidentally overlooked, because it is not clearly marked as "heavy brig" in the file. This is clear from the way the other changed heavy brigs are commented, and makes sense given every single stat (including arcade speeds) are exactly the same between them.

Looking in more detail at their entries, as well as looking at the ship hulls in "GM Viewer", I do agree now. They should in fact be the same ship - the hull appears to be the same, just in different colours, and they all have the line 'refShip.Model = "Brig";' which means you can convert any of them into any other by repainting it at the shipyard. So yes, give "brig1" and "brig2" exactly the same stats as "RN_Brig".

I'm rather unclear why you think the tier 6 brigantine is fundamentally different from the tier 5 ones in combat role. Because it has a slightly larger cargo capacity? The Shnyava2 Snow Brig has nearly as much cargo capacity (1450 to 1550) and is a combat vessel.

No, it has both 'refShip.Type.Trade = true;' and 'refShip.Type.War = true;'. It is a hybrid combat/trading vessel.

The CastelF tier 6 brigantines have 1500 HP and 16 guns of caliber 9. That is the same as the naval light brig.

That would be how it gets its "War" rating. And the 1550 cargo capacity is how it earns its "Trade" rating.

Going up a tier to 5 to the brigantina1 only increases that to 1750 HP and 22 guns of caliber 9.

And just 1000 cargo. So it has 'refShip.Type.Trade = false;' - it is a pure combat vessel.

The tier 5 brigantine/brigs certainly do need some extra cargo space. This isn't a "trade vessel" vs "combat vessel question" at all.

It is exactly a combat/trade issue. The tier 5 "Brigantina1" is a pure combat ship, lighter and therefore more agile - sail plan and rigging are not the only factors in a ship's performance.

Most tier 5 sloops of war have 1400 cargo capacity. Those are combat vessels of similar size, cost, and weight.

Brigantina1 (tier 5 brigantine):
Armament: 22 guns of 9lb
refShip.Weight = Tonnes2CWT(300);
refShip.Capacity = 1000;
refShip.SpeedRate = 11.0;
refShip.TurnRate = 100;

PiratBrig50 (sloop of war):
Armament: 22 guns of 9lb
refShip.Weight = Tonnes2CWT(350);
refShip.Capacity = 1000;
refShip.SpeedRate = 13.0;
refShip.TurnRate = 90;

PO_Neptunus (sloop of war):
Armament: 16 guns of 12lb
refShip.Weight = Tonnes2CWT(300);
refShip.Capacity = 1400;
refShip.SpeedRate = 13.0;
refShip.TurnRate = 85;

The sloops of war also have more of a square rig. That ties in with them being faster but not as manoeuvrable. The "Neptunus" types have higher capacity, and fewer but heavier guns, than the "PiratBrig50". It might make sense to reduce their capacity a bit, as they're supposed to be pure warships as well. ('refShip.Type.Trade = false;')

So I don't think this is a combat/trade issue, the 1000 is unreasonably low given comparable combat vessels, no reason not to bump them up a bit to 1300 at least.

Except that the only reason to increase the cargo capacity of the brigantine seems to be to then have an excuse to reduce its performance. Alternatively, let's leave it as the high performance, low cargo capacity ship. It's also the slightly slower but slightly more manoeuvrable alternative to the sloops of war.

 

[Tingyun]

Here are my thoughts by issue:

1) possible cargo capacity increase to tier 5 brigs and brigantine.

The Piratbrig50 you mention is the lone exception, other than the brigs and it being set at 1000, every single tier 5 ship, including combat ships ranging from frigates to sloops of war to heavy sloops of war all have a higher cargo capacity, generally 1400 and up. And the smaller tier 6 snow brig has a higher cargo caapcity, 1450 in its better iteration.

I'm not saying make the tier 5 brigs/brigantines cargo ships, just give them comparable cargo capacity to similar combat vessels.

And not as an "excuse to reduce its performance." As far as I am concerned the cargo increase is justified on its own. Tier 5 combat ships just generally have substantially more than 1000 cargo/



2) What to do with the tier 5 heavy brig stats:

Presumably, we start from the RN and US brig stats, speed 11.5 turn 105 (since they are the most recent iteration), make the generic heavy brig consistent with that, and then do something.

Armada suggested this: "I reckon the Heavy Brig needs to at least have its turn rate reduced a fair bit"

If you don't want to weaken it, maybe increase its top speed to 12.0 at the same time, to soften the manuverability blow.



3) Whether the tier 5 and tier 6 brigantine/brig differences should follow the same trend Armada suggests, as being slightly slower but more manuverable than comparable brigs

I'd favor yes, for all the reasons before stated, the tier 6 brigantine is set up to be a very nice combat vessel, having one of the best armanents of tier 6, and I'd like to see it have a high manuverability to create a consistent brigantine/brig difference at both tiers.

If that is really unbalancing with its dual trade role, we can always nerf its cargo capacity or designate it as war only. But the number 2 version of the snow brig already has nearly as much cargo capacity (1450 to its 1550), so I'm not seeing how giving the brigantine a good manuverablity would be unabalanced here, and seems to fit its hybrid role fine, while still creating an interesting and consistent tradeoff with the comparable brigs.

 

[Tingyun]

Going to have to sign off in a moment, I'm fine with whatever people decide on these issues.

Want to make sure this note I left above doesn't get lost in the flurry of discussion, because it is one related area that could really use some changes:

-----

A lot of ships (some frigates, barks, sloops of war, and brigs) all have this exact same entry for their sailing characteristics:

// Brigs were difficult to sail upwind
refShip.ClosestPoint = 0.295;
refShip.BestPoint = 0.9;

It looks like the brig was used as a basis for a lot of different non-brig ships, which were given different mast models, speeds, etc, but then the above entry was never changed to reflect their new sail configuration. I imagine there should be some difference between those light frigates/barks/sloops of war/brigs in these sailing characteristics, though I wouldn't know what.