WIP Flying Dutchman Project: Cursed & Uncursed

[Legendary_Spider]

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Not sure which of the two is more movie-accurate.
It does seem clear that the PA! version has much more modelled detail, while the SD:TEHO version has far nicer texture work.

Wouldn't it be nice if a version could be made that combines the best elements of BOTH?

Indeed. They both have some accurate elements to them.

That's a fascinating comparison! The SD:TEHO version seems to have been made in typical Akella style (even though they didn't make it), favouring detailed textures and fewer polygons. The UV's are clearly better as well; the PA! version has always been somewhat limited by the deck sharing the hull texture, for instance.


I'd strongly advise against using TOOL to add the parts, since that could introduce lighting issues.
We do have the Maya files for the PA! version, including locators, so it would make sense to make changes in that scene and re-export it.

That said, I'm not too sure what I feel should be done. What do you guys think?

I should very much like to look at the original maya file when you get it.

Perhaps I'm biased as a 3D modeller myself, but buying pre-made models seems like cheating, to me.
More importantly, they certainly wouldn't work out-of-the-box. They would still need to be split into separate models and exported from Maya, complete with locators, a path model, walk files... and by the time you've done that, you've put more work in that editing the existing model.

Well that's why I asked. And cheating? I'm fine with that. lol

 

[Pieter Boelen]

@Armada: Do you reckon it is doable to get the TEHO version in Maya too? She has much fewer polygons.
Then the 3D gunports and stern decoration could be added from our one for the cursed variant.

The original TEHO one works for the uncursed version though ideally should have 3D lion heads surrounding the gunports.

@Legendary_Spider could do texture work to distinguish between the two.

Alternatively, if the texture mapping on our version could be made more convenient, that would work too.
And then one export without the stern decoration for the Will Turner version.

Those are the two options that I can think of.
Which do you think is more feasible?

And would you be willing to assist with making it happen? Because I don't think we've really got anyone else who could.
Though hopefully @Robert Nutter will soon be able to as well.

 

[Legendary_Spider]

@Armada: Do you reckon it is doable to get the TEHO version in Maya too? She has much fewer polygons.
Then the 3D gunports and stern decoration could be added from our one for the cursed variant.

The original TEHO one works for the uncursed version though ideally should have 3D lion heads surrounding the gunports.

@Legendary_Spider could do texture work to distinguish between the two.

Alternatively, if the texture mapping on our version could be made more convenient, that would work too.
And then one export without the stern decoration for the Will Turner version.

Those are the two options that I can think of.
Which do you think is more feasible?

And would you be willing to assist with making it happen? Because I don't think we've really got anyone else who could.
Though hopefully @Robert Nutter will soon be able to as well.

I've been racking my brain with Maya tutorials. I'm just working under the assumption that I will be the sole person working on this. I know everyone is busy or gone, so I'm not doing this project expecting any help. If someone does though, awesome. Cause I'm kinda dumb, and Maya is mostly going over my head at the moment. lol

 

[Armada]

@Armada: Do you reckon it is doable to get the TEHO version in Maya too? She has much fewer polygons.
Then the 3D gunports and stern decoration could be added from our one for the cursed variant.

Yes, if it's less than 50,000 polys, which certainly seems so.

Those are the two options that I can think of.
Which do you think is more feasible?

I think they're both feasible enough. It comes down to which option people think would yield the best results.

And would you be willing to assist with making it happen? Because I don't think we've really got anyone else who could.
Though hopefully @Robert Nutter will soon be able to as well.

I'm willing to assist with Maya-related stuff, with the usual depending-on-free-time condition. Once I have more time this summer... who knows.
Legendary Spider will have to ask nicely.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Advantage of using our version of the Dutchman as base is that she already works in the game.
It would just be swapping out the hull GM.
And it would be fully OUR version.
But how hard is it to improve her texture mapping to be easier to work with?

The TEHO version already has the textures quite workable.
And because she's far lower poly, it seems easy enough to "paste" some elements from ours on there.
But how hard is it to get her into Maya and converted back again?

It is difficult for me to judge the difference in effort required, having zero experience with any of it.
I'd hope you may be able to weigh the pros and cons.

I found it quite hard to determine the accuracy of the actual geometries to see which one is better modeled.
The Russian one certainly has a very simple yet effective appearance.
But I think most of that is down to the textures.

Maybe @Legendary_Spider would be able to have a critical look at both models to see which of the two options might give the best results.

But one way or another, my choice would be for whatever takes the least effort to accomplish.
Maybe even going as far as suggesting the Russian version to be used, just with custom textures by @Legendary_Spider.
That would be by far the easiest solution, even if it would be a shame to lose ZarethPL's 3D detailing.

 

[Legendary_Spider]

Legendary Spider will have to ask nicely.

I always ask nicely. lol

I would very much like to learn how to do these things so I won't have to ask for help.

@Armada: Do you reckon it is doable to get the TEHO version in Maya too? She has much fewer polygons.
Then the 3D gunports and stern decoration could be added from our one for the cursed variant.@Robert Nutter will soon be able to as well.

I'm also hoping we can finally have the uncursed version without the skeleton figurehead.

Advantage of using our version of the Dutchman as base is that she already works in the game.
It would just be swapping out the hull GM.
And it would be fully OUR version.
But how hard is it to improve her texture mapping to be easier to work with?

I haven't yet figured out UV mapping. My initial thought was to edit the existing UV's, but I don't know if that's even possible.

Maybe @Legendary_Spider would be able to have a critical look at both models to see which of the two options might give the best results.

But one way or another, my choice would be for whatever takes the least effort to accomplish.
Maybe even going as far as suggesting the Russian version to be used, just with custom textures by @Legendary_Spider.
That would be by far the easiest solution, even if it would be a shame to lose ZarethPL's 3D detailing.

I thought the problem with the Russian one was that no one knew how to get it?

I'll certainly do my best to make it as accurate as possible. I know already, some doors to the cabin are missing. The capstan needs to be moved up one level and there's supposed to be a belfry on that same level in front of the capstan.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

You HAVE the Russian version. So do I now.
That's where the comparison screenshots came from.

 

[Robert Nutter]

For myself, I'd say I can help with any modelling that needs done for this as I like to think I'm pretty good at it these days . I've been cleaning up/preparing a lot of subd mesh's recently so may be able to help with reducing redundant polys too if that's an issue? Though my skills in Maya 5 are a tad unhoned and depending on the file type I may be able to work something out with .OBJ like we did with Dundas...though I'll need some clarification on that one.

Texturing wise, as always I'm willing to give it a try; but I really don't think I could be much help there, at least in the near future I know that's a bit useless of me but texturing/photoshop etc makes my head spin at the best of times.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

If @Robert Nutter can handle some of the modeling, I'm sure @Legendary_Spider would be more than capable of doing the textures.
And if @Armada is around to support the Maya Export process, then that is technically all bases covered, isn't it?
That would sure be awesome!

 

[Legendary_Spider]

You HAVE the Russian version. So do I now.
That's where the comparison screenshots came from.

Ooohhhhhhh. So THAT'S the Russian one I keep hearing about? Ok then.

If @Robert Nutter can handle some of the modeling, I'm sure @Legendary_Spider would be more than capable of doing the textures.
And if @Armada is around to support the Maya Export process, then that is technically all bases covered, isn't it?
That would sure be awesome!

Indeed. Texturing is an artform for me and a breeze.

For myself, I'd say I can help with any modelling that needs done for this as I like to think I'm pretty good at it these days . I've been cleaning up/preparing a lot of subd mesh's recently so may be able to help with reducing redundant polys too if that's an issue? Though my skills in Maya 5 are a tad unhoned and depending on the file type I may be able to work something out with .OBJ like we did with Dundas...though I'll need some clarification on that one.

Good to have some help. We need all we can get.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The Russian version; the SD:TEHO version; the PO:TEHO version; they're all that same one.
We've seen her in screenshots and videos for years. Now we've finally seen her close up.

 

[Legendary_Spider]

Well honestly, I do like the Russian model better. The texture layouts are not maddening on that one. If we could get some bits off our model, that would be cool.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Well honestly, I do like the Russian model better. The texture layouts are not maddening on that one. If we could get some bits off our model, that would be cool.

That was indeed also my first thought.
Sounds to me like adding some details to that one should be simpler than updating the UV maps on our own version.

I think ideally we would want the following two versions.

Cursed Flying Dutchman, Davy Jones' command:
- Russian model as base
- 3D stern decoration from PA! model to be added to her stern
- 3D gunport decoration from PA! model to be added around the gunports
- OPTIONAL: Some extra seaweed to be added from the PA! model as well
- New texture that is greener and more "seaweedy" (and that doesn't interfere with the added detail)
^ Maybe if the new texture is done with "layers", then the stern decoration/gunports can be part of the texture,
but be easily removed later when somebody adds the 3D detail

Uncursed Flying Dutchman, Will Turner's command:
- Russian model as base
- No additional decoration added from PA! model
- Skeleton to be REMOVED from her bow
- OPTIONAL: New "lion head" decoration to be created for her gunports
- Modified texture that swaps out the "cursed gunports" with "lion head ones"
Or removes them altogether so they can be added as 3D detail instead

I think those are the main differences that I would care about seeing.
For starters, the Russian model could be used with only texture work being done to distinguish between the two.
Extra model work may be done later when someone finds the time and will to start on that part.

 

[Robert Nutter]

Just so I'm up to date on what I've signed up for:

- We want the existing cursed Dutchman model to have better textures and possibly some further model details

- It'd be great if we could get the TEHO version into POTC as an uncursed version ie with the lionheads added to gunports and transferred ornamentation etc. Am I way off?

I'm up for helping with either of these though as always input may be required when it comes to import/export. I'd be especially interested in having a go at the stern ornamentation for either model if that's needed/wanted? As I'm after something to practice sculpting on...

EDIT: @Pieter Boelen beat me to it with the above post!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

EDIT: @Pieter Boelen beat me to it with the above post!

Base on my above post, do you still have any questions on what we'd have in mind?

Above idea is of course pending the comments of @Armada, @Legendary_Spider and yourself.
For now this is what I propose as most likely being the best and simplest solution.
But it could very well be that I am forgetting about some important things that may affect this.

 

[Robert Nutter]

To be honest I havn't seen either model outside of in-game POTC, so should probably do that before giving input. Is there a TEHO model I could take a look at?

The wireframe image Legendary Spider put up looked fairly messy; so I'd love to take a look at it. Was that just the model that I'd already have in my game folder? As I'll check it out if so...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Is there a TEHO model I could take a look at?

See your PMs.

The wireframe image Legendary Spider put up looked fairly messy; so I'd love to take a look at it. Was that just the model that I'd already have in my game folder? As I'll check it out if so...

That should indeed be our own version of the ship.

 

[Robert Nutter]

I'll have a go at getting it into c4d so I can clean the mesh up properly. Unless that's not a priority at this point?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I'll have a go at getting it into c4d so I can clean the mesh up properly. Unless that's not a priority at this point?

If we indeed decide to use the Russian model as base, there is no need to clean up the old mesh.

 

[Armada]

I think ideally we would want the following two versions.

Cursed Flying Dutchman, Davy Jones' command:
- Russian model as base
- 3D stern decoration from PA! model to be added to her stern
- 3D gunport decoration from PA! model to be added around the gunports
- OPTIONAL: Some extra seaweed to be added from the PA! model as well
- New texture that is greener and more "seaweedy" (and that doesn't interfere with the added detail)
^ Maybe if the new texture is done with "layers", then the stern decoration/gunports can be part of the texture,
but be easily removed later when somebody adds the 3D detail

Uncursed Flying Dutchman, Will Turner's command:
- Russian model as base
- No additional decoration added from PA! model
- Skeleton to be REMOVED from her bow
- OPTIONAL: New "lion head" decoration to be created for her gunports
- Modified texture that swaps out the "cursed gunports" with "lion head ones"
Or removes them altogether so they can be added as 3D detail instead

The nitpicky side of me would want to compare both models in Maya against the plans posted by @Legendary_Spider to determine which is more 'accurate' before proceeding. I know the plans themselves are slightly off with the details (e.g. the railings look more organic), but they do seem to have the correct hull proportions.

Regardless of which model we use as a base, I would suggest the following changes:

• Replace the 3D gunport heads with textured versions; this way, we can more easily depict the different heads on the cursed and uncursed versions. The Russian texture's heads look more faithful than our current 3D versions, to me, and remodelling the 3D ones to be more accurate would be much harder.
• Add/remove 3D bow and stern details depending on cursed/uncursed variants, as you mentioned above.
• Use the Russian version's bow 'teeth', which look more accurate from what I've seen.
• Ensure the hull shape follows the plans closely and has some 3D detailing on the sides; the Russian model looks decidedly 'flat' compared to the PA! version, in this regard.
• If we get far enough: add more detail to the rigging, in line with other PA! custom models.

If we use the PA! model as a base, the biggest change will need to be better UV mapping, whereas the Russian model would need more 3D detailing and, at first glance, some adjustments to fit the plans more closely.

The wireframe image Legendary Spider put up looked fairly messy; so I'd love to take a look at it. Was that just the model that I'd already have in my game folder? As I'll check it out if so...

That mesh is the result of GM Viewer's OBJ exporter chewing up anything with more than 50,000 polygons; it's completely beyond repair, by that point.
Thankfully, it doesn't matter, since I still have @ZarethPL's original Maya file that we can work from.