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GOF 1.1.x - Discussion thread

Some things still seem a bit out of ballance (to me):

Crew salary: With increasing difficulty level the costs explode - beyond anything reasonable.
They are all filthy rich men! We are talking GOLD pieces here!
On the other hand, one could argue that with the life expectancy of a sailor in GoF that's not even close to what it should be ...but then, both parts are blown out of proportion.
A mariner doesn't survive the first month! (except officers 'f course). Was life/battle at sea really that insanely bloody?
I know, we have more hostie encounters than real life, but even so, this all seems a bit harsh. It's murder out there!
Maby you could introduce "wounded" status?


Personal skills are still much slower to develope than ship skills. Even if you mass-re-murder skeletons.
With that in mind - ships skills are all at 100 just around mid-game (with the exception of the repair-skill).
This is with average exp setting. Maby the average should take a bit longer, since this should represent the "recommended setting"


And one more thing: It is practically impossible to make a profit as a trader from the start. Once you have a tresurer ...sure! But solo? No way!
That tresurer has to be found and bought first and so one could argue that it is impossible to START as a trader.


Great Mod, thanks guys!
Yes i'd like that, instead of massacred crews after boardings, most ships would surrender once they had lost the battle in the upper deck. And many sailors could be recruitable from surrendered crews.
I calculated once the number of skeletons needed to increase personal skills to 100%, and it was more than 500. May be a fencing teacher somewhere could do the trick
Actually, i tried to play as a trader once without treasurer and it was easy, just doing cargo missions. But then i discovered that everytime i left port a pirate fleet was chasing me so i used to wait near the fort for them, and then i realized that picking goods from the water and boarding damaged pirate ships was a better business than trading. The game was very easy so from then on i only play as pirate, not too dificult either.
 
Its almost impossible to hit anything in a battle at the start of the game but with a good gunner and improvements made to the skills you start to hit things a little easier. My point been balance, how far is it to go before we say the game is more balanced. So you have to do a little work before you can be a true trader buying and selling your own goods, if i could i would have made it so you start with no ship and have to work your way up to that point which is when i would say its more balanced. But making it so you can trade from the start is just improving the game difficulty because once you can do solo trading you will make lots of peices of eight and before you know it you'll be rolling in it. So making it so you can do solo trading from the start in effect pushes any reason to do merchant missions out of the way. The vanilla game was harder to start solo trading we made it a little easier as to when you could start but not to easy that you would be starting straight away.
You can't hit anything at the start but anybody can. In fact, the beginning is the easiest part of the game because you only need a big crew to board anything you want. If i could fit 800 pirates in a small ship i could board any warship because their gunnery skill is around 0%. Later when skills are better, and with the far gun ranges of this game (i'd say 400 yards should be the max effective range for the bigger guns), it's harder to approach another ship whithout being hit.

About the Arabella ship and other special ships, may be it could be made a reward for another quest (on top of blood quest), perhaps the flag ship of a dreaded captain which you must board. This way it would be still a unique ship, and you won't find it more than once.
 
And there's one more thing that's bugging the crap out of me: Sails!
Later on in the game your sails can't withstand a battle - they can't stand the first minute of a battle to be precise.
There's nothing tactical about this anymore. You can demast an enemy with the first three salvos at mid-range. Please give them more hitponts.

I know it can be really easy to cut down a tree compared to sinking a whole ship - but then i always remind miself: Gameplay beats reality and there's really nothing fun about four naked bathtubs giving each other a bad day... ;)
Because once you're out of sails it's just the C64 game "Artillery Duel" with better GraphX. (youtube it ^^ )
 
I actually have the same complaint. A single decent volley of chain once you Reach a certain level will dismast anything... Unfortunately, the reverse it's true, and I find that as the game progresses it becomes less fun, as you wind up completely without sails more often than not, limping through combat with even the weakest foes.
 
Interesting, i have not made it to mid/late game for a long time so this is a are i haven't been able to test in a natural way (ie without the use of cheats to boost me to this point). In my tests i was demasting ships easily, the downside is if we increase shail hp then we reduce sail damage but at a cost of a shot been less effective at slowing a ship down. So as it stands a single chainshot might take the ships speed down by say 0.1 per shot that rips through the sails, the higher the sail hp the lower the speed loss and it can end up taking several successfull shots to rip through the sails just to lower the ships speed by that 0.1 knots.

What i think is the better way is to locate the code that effects perks and skill boosts and reduce the naval battle side as far as sail damage goes, this in turn will reduce the likelyhood of demasting ships easily and help improve mid to late gameplay. If none of this can be done then adding a switch that increases sail hp which you can switch to at mid to late game to keep battles interesting and fun, a switch wouldn't be hard to implement for this but i would rather have the sail damage boosts reduced some what and sail hp boost switch added as a last resort.

Have you guy's tried switching realistic cannon damage on at mid to late game because that will rteduce sail damage, if your already playing with this on then it back to the above idea's.
 
I've increased the sail hp's for all rates in a personal test career and have to say in mid to late games you still kill the sails off pretty easy... it just takes 2-5 broadsides more.

No wonder the ships have much more firepower later on plus you as player are far more capable when it comes to gunnery at actually "hit things".
:dance

And Luke is right. If you want to chase down an escaping enemy you can slow her down with 1-2 broadside while she's still in range... with increased sail hp ships can get away from you even if you hit her 2 times [if you are a little slower obviously]. This can give you some frustration.

Also more sail hp would mean you need more sailcloth to be able to do repairs on sea, but at the moment the weight is pretty high for sailcloth thus you need to adjust that too, this should be considered as well.

On a further note with realistic reload times the AI ships need another routine since they turn around to fire the other broarside while if they would not turn and sail on facing the enemy vessel wih the same side they fired previously they could fire in the same time 2-3 broadsides, and would be more dangerous foes/companions... ah well the AI isn't that good anyway *smiles*

Edit
I'm playing with the mast don't fall hack from buho I'd like to add. So no dismasting in my game ;-)
 
I played a bit with GOF 1.1.2 with dismasting turned on. I started with Arabella frigate and 100% skills and perks. I modded cannon ranges to 400 yards max and reloading times much longer. My impression was that dismasting was well simulated. At long range it was difficult but at point blank from the bow or the stern and manual aiming it was easier to cut one or two masts as it should be.

I've read many articles about the battle of Trafalgar and think for a minute, the most experienced and respected leader of the age, Nelson himself, didn't hesitate to sail his ship columns directly into a line of 3 decker battleships. There was a light wind and for several minutes his ship was under fire from at least two enemy ships. Yet all british ships managed to reach the enemy line and attack them from point blank range. That happened in the pinacle of the age of sail and it wasn't an error nor a casual incident. Nelson always went for close range battle.

That teaches us how effective was cannon fire then. One thing is to shoot a gun and hit somewhere at 1000 yards, and another is to shoot it and hit where you want. There weren't two cannon bores equally forged, and projectiles weren't equally crafted either. There was a wasted space between the bore and the projectile that made shots deviate wildly at long ranges. That was even more pronounced with knipples and the like, on top of air friction and projectile own turning motion. So perhaps round balls were effective up to 400 yards, and bar and chain shots were effective up to 200 yards. Still long range round balls would do much less damage to the hull, perhaps they couldn't penetrate it at all. That's why i play with 400 yards max range.

Another thing is the way culverins were employed. They were mounted as bow or stern chasers, and they were smaller shot weight than main guns (up to 18 pounds the most). A 100 gun ship hadn't 100 culverins and of course they all weren't 32-36-42 pounds either. The main battery could be fired at medium or long range but the other were fired at close range only. Stern or bow chasers were the only guns fired at very long ranges and it was more a psicological effect or sometimes a lucky shot could do some damage to the rigging.
 
We have to remember that the stock range for the 42Ibs cannon was 800 yards and the true range at which culverines could be fired would be a nightmare if implemented into GOF because some 1700 yards for a 18Ibs culverine with a maximum range of 6500 yards :shock See Here For Info.
 
A real broadside was not concentrated on the closest ship as COAS does. This calls for a reduced shooting range. Reaching a wide arc at 500 yds is not the same as putting nearly all the metal in one point at 500 yds.

The unrealistic nature of the targeting model calls for unrealistic (lesser) ranges.

On the other side, the AI is not only unable to tack but she get in irons 9/10 times, making the enemy ships an easy prey for a tacking player. Even with invulnerable sails the player will chase the AI ships sooner or later. Changing the AI will make a bigger difference than another tweak on the damages.

Cheers.
buho (A).
 
Buho you know how to alter the AI's play style to be more of a challenge to the player?
 
Buho you know how to alter the AI's play style to be more of a challenge to the player?

I'm not ready to tackle the AI atm, I still need to learn a lot more.

And I want to have a solid code ground too: while working in the AI I need to know that misbehaviours are caused for the AI changes and not for some dormant bug suddenly awakening.

It is a long way from here to there.

Cheers.
buho (A).
 
Thats not a problem how about making it so while in sailing mode you can have a chance of randomly encountering another ship?

That would really improve the game, maybe make it so that the ships are generated near islands so when the game loads up the island it has a 50% chance it will load ship(s) close by, this would really kick start the sailing from island to island and give the player a much more realistic feel for sailing. If it could be done that the game has a chance of generating a ship or ships any where while in sailing mode then that would be even better.
 
If there is a way, I have no idea.

For what I know about the game just now, sailing mode is a very closed universe: the game generates the conditions when you hit the mode and after that there is not a simple way to change things.

While I was coding the "summoning tools" (the testing tools) I tried to generate ships while in sailing mode and never managed to make it.

I not saying it is impossible, I'm saying that I don't know how to make it atm.

Cheers.
buho (A).
 
We have to remember that the stock range for the 42Ibs cannon was 800 yards and the true range at which culverines could be fired would be a nightmare if implemented into GOF because some 1700 yards for a 18Ibs culverine with a maximum range of 6500 yards :shock See Here For Info.
A hundred years later culverins were the main gun used in war at sea, as long range chase weapons or ship-smashers that could cripple a ship if fired broadside at close range.

That paragraph specially this sentence from that book is mixing different terms with little knowledge. Culverins weren't the main gun, they were special long range guns mounted in the bow or stern if there was space enough to place them and operate them. Just the opposite, smashers is how they called the short range, heavy shot weight guns made by the Carron Company (carronades) in the XVIII century. Yes, those were devastating if fired at close range (and useless at longer range), but they weren't culverins at all, and culverins weren't fired in broadsides.

Yes, there were several types of culverins, from smaller 3 to 6 pounder to the 32 pounder culverin royal but the later were for land sieges. The heavier ones never were mounted on ships. The way it's written it produces the impression that all those were naval guns. I think the biggest mounted culverin in the 17 century ships was the 9 pounder culverin. And later in the age of battleships the biggest mounted culverin was the 18 pounder and only in the bigger ships like 2 and 3 deckers. Simply because there wasn't space enough to operate them in other ships. And why they were mounted only as chasers? I see it this way, you have a sniper rifle for long range shots. It's a precision gun, expensive, heavy, slow to reload, difficult to handle. Next you have an assault rifle, high rate of fire, medium range, normal handling, medium cost. And last you have a shotgun, devastating at point blank and useless at long range, cheap, easy handling. Now imagine you replace the assault rifle and the shotgun with sniper rifles. It doesn't make sense to have 3 sniper rifles. Every gun has its proper situation and its advantages. They mounted culverins for long range sniping. They mounted demicannons for gun fights. And they mounted cheaper guns for boarding battles.

I think the stock game had 42 lbs 800 yards range mainly for forts. I can't remember if any ship could use them. Anyway its logic to give forts some long range power, if not they would be useless. But back to the point, let's see what happens when gun ranges go up to 700-900 yds in the game. If the AI goes for you, it moves into range and start shooting broadsides from long range and stay there as long as it can. If you are a pirate and encounter a convoy, suddenly tenths of guns are firing at your ship from every single merchant, not talking about escorts. In a few minutes your sails are a collection of holes. There is no room for maneuvering or tactics. The only possible action is to shoot from long range and destroy their sails faster than them, which means dozens of broadsides from 900 yards. Never heard of a naval battle like that. Where are all those naval battles when a clever captain maneuvers to get the advantage, waits to shoot in the right moment and close in for the prize from the proper angle? I have played with shorter ranges and i liked, if some AI ship wants to shoot my sails it has to get in the dangerous distance and i can go in and out of shooting range with a fast ship. Also i like to use longer reloading times to make every broadside a decisive election. If you can fire every few seconds there is no challenge.
 
Well there is a way to change that in the game as follows.

Culverines
4, 8 = 400
12, 16 = 450
20, 24 = 500
28, 32 = 550

Cannons
4, 8 = 300
12, 16 = 350
20, 24 = 400
28, 32 = 450
36, 42 = 500
48, 92 = 550


By changing it to the above value's the culverines would have greater range compared to the cannons than they do in GOF 1.1.2, but the calibures would be grouped to reduce overal shot distance and bring all ships closer together the way you like it bringing back into the game tactical disissions to be made that could lead on to victory or loose you the battle. How does this sound to you?

P.S.
Please note 42 and 48Ibs cannons are only seen mounted on MOW's and maybe some quest ships and you can't upgrade to these calibures at Bermuda. While 92Ibs will only ever be seen on the forts and can't be purchased from shipyards any where in the caribbean.
 
Well there is a way to change that in the game as follows.

Culverines
4, 8 = 400
12, 16 = 450
20, 24 = 500
28, 32 = 550

Cannons
4, 8 = 300
12, 16 = 350
20, 24 = 400
28, 32 = 450
36, 42 = 500
48, 92 = 550


By changing it to the above value's the culverines would have greater range compared to the cannons than they do in GOF 1.1.2, but the calibures would be grouped to reduce overal shot distance and bring all ships closer together the way you like it bringing back into the game tactical disissions to be made that could lead on to victory or loose you the battle. How does this sound to you?

P.S.
Please note 42 and 48Ibs cannons are only seen mounted on MOW's and maybe some quest ships and you can't upgrade to these calibures at Bermuda. While 92Ibs will only ever be seen on the forts and can't be purchased from shipyards any where in the caribbean.
I have modded my cannons file and i made an excel file to change data keeping some coherence. I think those changes you propose could help other new players to get a better feeling of naval battles. I'm not a fanatic of realism, i only like to adapt gameplay to what i think was reality as long as it's fun and playable (fun for me at least). However don't feel obliged to change them just by me because i already modded my game.
With what we have we can't do much better than defining a variety of culverins and cannons and try to make some sense with them, but i'd change the whole system if i could. For example, if the dog of war has more cannons on paper than it has on the model, is it possible to have non modeled cannons on a ship and still use them and see their effects in battle? So we could define chase guns of different type, and use them with different ranges.
 
I've changed the range for cannons and culverines and will test them out, a lot of other key things have changed which has a impact of naval battles and will increase the use of tactics. We can't make COAS 100% historically accurate but we can improve its engine slightly to be more accurate and give a much better feeling for the time. Its alway's been my aim to improve tactical naval battles but with as much realism as possible, if the range of the cannons takes away from the tactical side then they need to be changed and so they have for that reason as well as other things.

Sadly its not possible to change what calibures can be mounted where in that you can't define chase guns to be a different calibure to the calibure the ship has mounted. So if you want to mount 24Ibs culverines as chase guns then all guns would need to be 24Ibs, sad but thats the way it is. Ships in the battle of trafalgar did have 42Ibs mounted, the Victory had 2 68Ibs mounted, so we have kept the calibures as close to real as possible. If we could we would change it so small ships wouldn't be able to mount culverines, making it even more realistic, but sadly we haven't been able to do that yet. I do think it is possible though. Maybe even changing it so each ship has 2 seperate enteries for maximum calibures, 1 for cannons and 1 for culverines. Then we could drastically change the mechanic of naval battles.
 
That paragraph specially this sentence from that book is mixing different terms with little knowledge. Culverins weren't the main gun, they were special long range guns mounted in the bow or stern if there was space enough to place them and operate them. Just the opposite, smashers is how they called the short range, heavy shot weight guns made by the Carron Company (carronades) in the XVIII century. Yes, those were devastating if fired at close range (and useless at longer range), but they weren't culverins at all, and culverins weren't fired in broadsides.

You can't make a generalization here that applies to the entire age of sail. Spain is actually credited with consolidating standard bore and weight sizes in the 16th century. Sweden often gets the credit for this during the times of Gustavus Adolphus. It's true he standardized it for land armies, but it had already been done in the Armies of Prince Maurice during the first decade of the 17th century. However, standardized bore and weight sizes in naval guns were already well established by then.

Even though Spain gets the credit, it was the Netherlands (which were a Spanish possession at the time) where the good guns were being made. Spain and France had horrible foundries and bad ores. They had not figured out the mixtures yet. Those countries imported the vast majority of their guns from the Netherlands. When the Dutch broke away from Spain during their successful 80 year war of rebellion, they established the first Swedish gun works, the German gun works at Asslar/Wetzlar, and Russian gun foundries at Tula. The Dutch were truly the engineers that brought the world the common naval gun standards adopted by every other European nation - including England, for the following two centuries. The Dutch became the great arms traders of the 17th century.

The Dutch produced thousands of Bronze culverines during the 16th and 17th centuries. I have sources that give numbers made by year and factory if desired. Before standardization, odd guns like 50 pounder culverines were even produced in limitted numbers for naval use on the largest Spanish War Galleons of the 16th century. Some of these ships mounted even larger bombards that were more closely related to seige weapons than naval artillery. During the Dutch naval reforms of the first and second Anglo-Dutch Wars (which saw the largest battles in history during the age of sail), it was not unusual for large Dutch galleons to have complete batteries of 24 pounder culverines. These were NOT chasers. They were primary armament.

I have no arguments with what you state for the Eighteenth Century and especially within the Royal Navy, but you cannot apply that to the whole. After all, COAS is set in the year 1665.

BTW I am developing a mod as we speak that is going rather well - that will become a COAS period mod. The first installment GOF: Colonization 1580-1620 is working nicely. I have simply eliminated all the ships outside the era, added Officerpuppies older uniforms, added the older period flags, and thanks to Luke have changed the alliances to match that era. I am doing another now called GOF: The Golden Century 1648-1725 and will do a final one called GOF: Buccaneer's Sunset 1750-1820. As it stands now each mod is a seperate game. We do not know how to bundle them together yet so that you could just pick the era you want to play. My music mod is finished and I'm just waiting for permission to use a couple of the tracks before I release it. For GOF: Bucaneer's Sunset, I'm thinking about having a different music mod that has later music more akin to the Hornblower series. This will give our players that have complained for a long time about the mis-matched out of period ships in the same sand box, what they want. I hope to have the mods all finished by Christmas. Sounds like you would like to play the late era.

MK
 
Interesting, i have not made it to mid/late game for a long time so this is a are i haven't been able to test in a natural way (ie without the use of cheats to boost me to this point). In my tests i was demasting ships easily, the downside is if we increase shail hp then we reduce sail damage but at a cost of a shot been less effective at slowing a ship down. So as it stands a single chainshot might take the ships speed down by say 0.1 per shot that rips through the sails, the higher the sail hp the lower the speed loss and it can end up taking several successfull shots to rip through the sails just to lower the ships speed by that 0.1 knots.

What i think is the better way is to locate the code that effects perks and skill boosts and reduce the naval battle side as far as sail damage goes, this in turn will reduce the likelyhood of demasting ships easily and help improve mid to late gameplay. If none of this can be done then adding a switch that increases sail hp which you can switch to at mid to late game to keep battles interesting and fun, a switch wouldn't be hard to implement for this but i would rather have the sail damage boosts reduced some what and sail hp boost switch added as a last resort.

Have you guy's tried switching realistic cannon damage on at mid to late game because that will rteduce sail damage, if your already playing with this on then it back to the above idea's.
Maby a counterformula could help.
You start at 450 sails. This means 100% damage.
Now you get shot down to 324 points of sails. You calculate 100 / 450 * 324 = 72. The damage you can get, is now down to 72%
This way it gets increasingly difficult to damage further the more damage you've allready done. This sounds even realistic to me, because there is less sail left over to damage. Some balls will fly through holes allready made by previous volleys.
And you can still slow ships down ...but its much less likely that you're not gonna create that nastiy static situation where nobody can move anymore...
 
Well, I just recently got a chance to try out GoF, and I've started with 1.1.2 without trying out previous versions. And, first of all, congratulations, I'm yet to experience a CTD not caused by screensaver. Well done.

But there's one thing that bugs me a bit. Is there a way to turn off national quest lines? I mean without enabling debug mode. I've tried changing the
Code:
 bool    bWorldAlivePause      = true;
to false in the _mod_on_off.h as I did in the previous versions (vanilla and CMV3x) but to no effect. (However, I'm not sure if I started a new game before or after I changed it, so it might be my mistake).

Cheers!
 
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