HMS Indefatigable (1784) frigate

[Martes]

Anson was originally an "Intrepid" class

The drawings for the Intrepid don't show that port either, hehe. So I would suppose it may have been either painter's fantasy (the second picture of the same author attributed to almost the same date do not show it!) or a captains' decision at certain point. I just like how it looks.

The existing "HMS_Indefatigable" and "FR_Indefatigable" are being renamed "RN_Razee" and "FR_Razee".

Since it's a second model of Unite class, I would suggest some other name for the class. I would give Indy's new model to represent the razees for the moment in other navies (while in reality they all were very different, according to the base class, we don't have the models and in most cases even drawings), to represent something in between ships of the line and frigates, and move the existing model to a place of a light frigate she really is:

HMS Surprise (1796) - Wikipedia

 

[Grey Roger]

The existing "HMS_Indefatigable", now renamed "RN_Razee", is certainly not a second model of "Unite" class! We already have HMS Surprise, called, not surprisingly, "HMS_Surprise". This is an accurate depiction of the ship as seen in the film "Master and Commander". Another version, the generic "Unite" class, is "RN_Surprise". There are French and Spanish versions of that. (There'd have to be the French version, of course, since Unite was originally a French ship!) "RN_Razee" is basically a retextured version of the flushdeck frigate "FR_Boussole", and "FR_Razee" is literally a retexture of "RN_Razee" - I created that one to give Napoleonic France a version of the ship that wasn't in the older royalist yellow and blue scheme of "FR_Boussole".

The new "HMS_Indefatigable" is heavier and tougher than "RN_Razee". In fact, I'm a little concerned that it may be too awesome! The various "BattleFrigate" types, based on the Constitution, are already disgustingly awesome, with battleship-grade guns, frigate-grade performance and a big cargo hold - a privateer's dream. But because they're not much tougher than regular frigates, you probably don't want to attack a fort in one. "HMS_Indefatigable", with HP not much less than some ships of the line, can probably take out Martinique fort and may have a chance at something a bit bigger. I'll probably try taking it against Guadeloupe fort and if the ship survives that, it's definitely unbalanced.

 

[Martes]

Naval warfare was never about balance

Anyway, what would you say then about the Majestic we mentioned in this thread, a razeed 74 with 32-pounders?..
Or the US patrols in the game, with at least 3 Connies lurking around in each squadron?
In any case, Indy should be about 5-10% slower than your average "battlefrigate", and mounts less guns, and, possibly, less cargo space.

 

[Grey Roger]

One ship at a time, please! Let's finish with "HMS_Indefatigable", then worry about the Majestic. (Which, as far as I can tell, was still a ship of the line after being razeed - she still had two gundecks.)

"HMS_Indefatigable" is indeed slower than "RN_Battlefrigate" (speed 12.5 versus speed 13.0), and now has the same cargo space (2200). (I'm pretending the original 60 gun third-rate version is about equivalent to the "Poseidon" and "Fleuron" types, which have capacity 2500, so 2200 is reasonable for a cut-down version.)

Naval warfare may not be about balance and you may certainly run into groups significantly more or less powerful than yourself, but there's no point in making life too easy for players by providing them with a super-ship which can do everything.

 

[Grey Roger]

Fun with textures. Here's the "Indy" with the newer British cream paint:


And now the French have one:


Odd, though. There's a dark stripe running through the gunports. It's barely noticeable with the original "Posei_ylw" texture file but more visible with the newer versions, which are simply "Posei_ylw" after some hue and saturation alteration.

 

[Martes]

Naval warfare may not be about balance and you may certainly run into groups significantly more or less powerful than yourself, but there's no point in making life too easy for players by providing them with a super-ship which can do everything.

Well, 3-Connnie patrol is a certain death.
You can take on one, maybe two, but by then they dismast you, and that's it.

 

[Martes]

@Grey Roger here mentioned the rest gunport lids.

Well, as I said, historically, there should have been the bare minimum I made (and on some pictures those ships appear with no lids at all!), but why not?

Here are three versions:

Left - historical
Center - with additinal lids, but not on waist gunports
Right - lids for all ports

​

Which one would you want in the game?

 

[Grey Roger]

Strange. The reason for gunport covers was to seal the gundeck in case of heavy weather; if a ship rolled too far while gunports were open, it was liable to flood the gundeck and capsize. However, a search for pictures of the ship does seem to show at least some pictures showing those ports without covers, so either the pictures are wrong or HMS Indefatigable was lucky to still be afloat.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Right - lids for all ports

That one makes the most sense to me.

 

[Grey Roger]

I'm having trouble with figureheads. I'd like a version with the warrior figurehead which also appears on one of the corvette models and one of the "Battleship4" models, as it would be closer to the appearance of the real Indefatigable than the shield from HMS Victory. The snag is that the figurehead geometry locator is at the centre of the ship. Presumably the shield version of "HMS_Indefatigable_figurehead.gm" has the actual shield located well forward and up, so as to compensate for that, but it means that when I replace it with the warrior figure, he does not appear because he's effectively in the ship's hold. And if I try to change the locator using TOOL, the resulting "HMS_Indefatigable.gm" file can't be displayed by GM Viewer. The game does read it and displays the ship, but it beeps a couple of times, and "system.log" shows a couple of messages about "cannot trace up" and "cannot trace down".

As well as the real HMS Indefatigable, a generic dark yellow version shared by all nations will need a different figurehead. It's going to look a bit odd if a ship in a fleet belonging to revolutionary France carries a shield with the British royal coat of arms... (Worst case scenario, I can make a new shield texture which is plain golden yellow, so the shield on the generic version effectively becomes a blank brass disc.)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

As well as the real HMS Indefatigable, a generic dark yellow version shared by all nations will need a different figurehead. It's going to look a bit odd if a ship in a fleet belonging to revolutionary France carries a shield with the British royal coat of arms...

I assume @Martes intended the shield to be retextured for each national variation?

 

[Grey Roger]

That works for individual national versions. It doesn't work for a version which is shared between nations. I'm planning on having a light cream version specific to Britain, preferably with the warrior figurehead for a realistic HMS Indefatigable; a light red version specific to France; a dark red version specific to Spain; and a dark yellow version used by everyone. The last is the one which needs either a different figurehead or a blank shield.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That works for individual national versions. It doesn't work for a version which is shared between nations. I'm planning on having a light cream version specific to Britain, preferably with the warrior figurehead for a realistic HMS Indefatigable; a light red version specific to France; a dark red version specific to Spain; and a dark yellow version used by everyone. The last is the one which needs either a different figurehead or a blank shield.

Ah, right.

 

[Grey Roger]

There's also the matter of flags. I managed to get the ship integrated into the game, at present only the original colour scheme:

At present it has one flag on the gaff rigging and one very long, very thin pennant on the mainmast. I'm inclined to put a pennant on each of the foremast and mizzen mast, and a flag on the mainmast. There certainly ought to be a flag somewhere else because, at least when going into battle, ships would hoist a second battle ensign. That way, if one was shot off, the other would still be flying, so it would not look as if the ship had surrendered.

 

[Martes]

figureheads

I would suggest to do the following.
1. Pale cream + warrior from sp_battleship4 = unique Indy
2. Pale cream + british shield = generic RN razee
3. Yellow (as now) + lion = generic ship for everybody

French (red + white) and Spanish (red + gold) versions may have a shield or a lion, you tell me.

I will shift the locator, hopefully, which will enable the modification.

flags

My experience tells me they usually shoot down the main mast first.
Plus, historically (I know nobody gives a damn, but still) the main mast flies the commissioning pendant.
So to fly secondary flag I would add it to the fore mast.

gunport covers

As I mentioned in our conversation, the British custom was to leave the gundeck open on frigates, since

(I quote from here: Gun Port Lids )

"Gardiner notes: With around 7ft of freeboard, gunport lids are unnecessary except where the ports open into cabins or other enclosed spaces..."

It seems to be the case that Frigates had generally higher freeboard than other rates AND did not use the "gun deck" as living space. Frigates had the advantage of dedicated berth decks below for the crew."

​

It is known that Americans did the opposite, and there is but one image of HMS Shannon (I suspect American) that shows her with lids over all ports. No other British picture shows a frigate (or any ship) with upper (or single) gun deck with lid-covered ports except on ends.

Thus I can export one of the above versions, but I will need some consensus here about what do we want.

 

[Armada]

The existing "HMS_Indefatigable" and "FR_Indefatigable" are being renamed "RN_Razee" and "FR_Razee". "RN_Razee" can now appear to a limited extent in "Colonial Powers" to take on "FR_Boussole".

They're not really razée frigates*, so shouldn't they use the Boussole name? In-game, they could be identified as Boussole-class Frigates to differentiate from the new Indy-based razées.

(*Unless anyone knows of a razée that moved the stern galleries down to the gundeck?)

The existing "HMS_Indefatigable", now renamed "RN_Razee", is certainly not a second model of "Unite" class!

I think the old Indefatigable/Boussole was originally our only Surprise-like ship, before RN_Surprise and HMS_Surprise were built and added to the game.

Well, as I said, historically, there should have been the bare minimum I made (and on some pictures those ships appear with no lids at all!), but why not?

In The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War, it's stated that all ports were covered "in the seventeenth century", and after that they were removed from the waist and quarterdeck of two/three deckers where it's not covered or used as a living space, so I'd say your minimum layout is probably most accurate. It should be your call, though, as it's your ship.

I'm inclined to put a pennant on each of the foremast and mizzen mast, and a flag on the mainmast. There certainly ought to be a flag somewhere else because, at least when going into battle, ships would hoist a second battle ensign. That way, if one was shot off, the other would still be flying, so it would not look as if the ship had surrendered.

One layout I've seen in paintings and elsewhere comprises an ensign on the foremast, pennant on the mainmast and another ensign on the stern or spanker sail. That, or the current layout, is probably the most realistic.

 

[Grey Roger]

I would suggest to do the following.
1. Pale cream + warrior from sp_battleship4 = unique Indy
2. Pale cream + british shield = generic RN razee
3. Yellow (as now) + lion = generic ship for everybody

French (red + white) and Spanish (red + gold) versions may have a shield or a lion, you tell me.

I will shift the locator, hopefully, which will enable the modification.

Perfect! Versions 1-3 are exactly what I had in mind. There is also a griffin figurehead, which you can see in "Battleship4". The same figureheads, on a smaller scale, can be found in the corvette models, in case the battleship ones look too big on the "Indy". More importantly, if the figurehead locator is on the bow then it becomes trivially easy to put whatever figurehead is desired there.

When I was creating the French and Spanish variants of other ships, I was told that the whole lot should be the same colour. This wasn't easy on some models, as they used lots of different files to texture various bits, and I didn't manage to do everything. And some model use the same texture file for everything. Anyway, a gilded stern sometimes looked better. White really shouldn't be on the French version. Either make the sterns and all decorations the same colour as the hull, or perhaps leave the stern golden yellow. (Have a look at "FR_Bellona", which has the French light red on almost everything but has some decorations still in golden yellow.) Otherwise, all that's really necessary is to separate the texture for small items such as door handles, from the main texture for the hull. The door handles, binnacle etc. can then stay golden yellow while the hull gets the national colour scheme.

My experience tells me they usually shoot down the main mast first.
Plus, historically (I know nobody gives a damn, but still) the main mast flies the commissioning pendant.
So to fly secondary flag I would add it to the fore mast.

In various paintings I've seen, on-line or in reality, some ships have the flag on the mainmast and pennant on fore and/or mizzen, while some ships have the pennant on the mainmast and ensign on the foremast. The same is true in the game, as a look through "Ships_init.c" will show. I am open to advice from other forum members. But any mast which is going to have a flag or pennant must have both "flag" and "penn" locators, which means it's then just a matter of editing "Ships_init.c" to arrange the flags and pennants. The important bit at this time, then, is to put the locators onto the masts - and that I have now done.

As I mentioned in our conversation, the British custom was to leave the gundeck open on frigates
...
Thus I can export one of the above versions, but I will need some consensus here about what do we want.

As all other ships in the game have a full set of gunport covers, it looks a bit odd. But if there is historical evidence that this ship had no covers on those ports, I've no objection to leaving it alone.

 

[Grey Roger]

They're not really razée frigates*, so shouldn't they use the Boussole name? In-game, they could be identified as Boussole-class Frigates to differentiate from the new Indy-based razées.

In game, "FR_Boussole" shows up as "Flushdeck frigate". The new "HMS_Indefatigable" has 'refShip.SName = "Indy";' so I had to use a different SName for the ex-Indy, and I simply made them all "FrigateAdv", the same as "FR_Boussole". So, in game, they're all going to be "Flushdeck frigate". But I can't be bothered renaming all the files again.

One layout I've seen in paintings and elsewhere comprises an ensign on the foremast, pennant on the mainmast and another ensign on the stern or spanker sail. That, or the current layout, is probably the most realistic.

The current layout with just one ensign on the spanker gaff and one pennant on the main is probably realistic for peaceful cruising. In battle, there would be at least a second ensign somewhere. Otherwise, if the one ensign was shot off, it could look as though the ship had struck its colours and surrendered. Exactly what goes where seems to vary between paintings, and for that matter, between our own ships in "Ships_init.c" - some ships have the peaceful cruising layout, some have the ensign on the mainmast and pennant on the foremast, and some have the ensign and pennant the other way round. "FR_Boussole" and its relatives, i.e. the former "Indefatigable", are among those with the ensign on the mainmast.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

In game, "FR_Boussole" shows up as "Flushdeck frigate". The new "HMS_Indefatigable" has 'refShip.SName = "Indy";' so I had to use a different SName for the ex-Indy, and I simply made them all "FrigateAdv", the same as "FR_Boussole". So, in game, they're all going to be "Flushdeck frigate". But I can't be bothered renaming all the files again.

The code names aren't so relevant, are they?
Perhaps you could limit it to only changing the SName lines?

 

[Armada]

In game, "FR_Boussole" shows up as "Flushdeck frigate". The new "HMS_Indefatigable" has 'refShip.SName = "Indy";' so I had to use a different SName for the ex-Indy, and I simply made them all "FrigateAdv", the same as "FR_Boussole". So, in game, they're all going to be "Flushdeck frigate". But I can't be bothered renaming all the files again.

Fair enough, that should work.