Included in Build Improving the Smuggling System

[Hylie Pistof]

Let me get this down while it is fresh in my alleged memory............

As near as I can tell July 1690 I went on a smuggling run to Jamaica. All went smoothly and I sold the goods with no soldiers showing up. But when I went to sea three hostile British ships were there. Well I managed to get away ok and out sailed them. Thinking I had gotten away I decided to direct sail to Santo Domingo. All went well until a "strange sail" message appeared and those same three ships were RIGHT THERE! I took some damage getting out of range of their carronades and then went to the World Map.
Now it is 8 months later and a storyline needs for me to go to Jamaica again. I decide to smuggle as the English are mad at me. I have three ships now, 2 Neptunus + my starting Diligente Tartane. I was flying the Portagee flag hoping to get in and out easy. At the land ho call I was met by my old friends, a sloop and 2 heavy brigs. I couldn't get away this time so had to fight it out. I had 2 ships nearly sunk, mine and the Tartane, while they had one ship sunk and two boarded, surrendered, robbed, and left floating after talking to their captains.
So I went on to Jamaica and did the storyline part, and then did the smuggling part and it was clean all the way. No problems.

EXCEPT THAT I AM NOW A PIRATE CAPTAIN AND EVERYONE IS MAD AT ME EXCEPT THE PIRATES!! All for something that should never have happened in the first place.

Oh ya.........the crews want to sign something now and are unhappy.............

 

[Levis]

@Hylie Pistof do you have the compile.log from this all happening?
Or else could you at least show a screenshot of the last part of the questbook entries of the smuggling run which initially generated the ships...

 

[Hylie Pistof]

There is no record of any of that happening except this. And I am a Pirate Captain.

But there is more! From Jamaica I sailed to Willemstad to regroup and repair. All went well until it was time to leave. When I went to the ship there were two angry Dutch warships in the harbor that I had to get away from before I could go to the World map. At least the fort didn't join in the fun.
From there I went to Grenada where I bribed the governor into dropping our relations from -60 to -30. Thankfully I did not get attacked when I left. From there I went to Barbados on quest business and there was no fighting. Then to martinique where there was no fighting and I picked up a merchant run to San Juan. Landed there and am thinking of going back to Port Royal on quest business, but really don't want to. This whole smuggling thing really is not worth the trouble.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Smuggling only ever generates one coast guard ship. I have NO CLUE how you could have got three ships instead.
Do you have a save with them?

The only thing I can think of is a punitive squadron, but I didn't think that stock game feature even worked.

As for your nation relations, what exactly happened?
More specifically, what flag were you flying when you dealt with those English ships?
It looks to my like you committed a big act of Piracy, which could have happened if you did your attack while under an English flag.
You should have had an on screen warning when firing on them the first time though.

If that isn't what happened, then please detail what exactly did happen and what you saw.
Did you ever see any warning? Do you now have a Tutorial Quest Book entry?

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I was flying the Portagee flag at all times. There is no save or any logs.

 

[Grey Roger]

What I think happened:
Something is messed up so that the same three British ships keep showing up.

At Jamaica, they recognised you as hostile and started shooting. You, still under Portuguese flag, fought back. But Portugal is probably allied to Britain and, under the new relations system, if you fight against a ship while flying a flag friendly to it, this is extremely dishonourable which is why you turned pirate. If you'd hoisted your personal flag (since you personally are probably hostile to Britain) or a French flag (France is probably hostile to Britain), you would not have turned pirate.

As you're a pirate, the crew feel like pirates as well. And pirates want to be paid by dividing the plunder.

So the fundamental problem is the same British squadron following you all over the place. The rest is the intentional result of the new system.

@Pieter Boelen: if you're not currently friendly to Pirates but hoist a Pirate flag before fighting an enemy, what does that do to your relations with Pirates, and for that matter to the rest of the world? Because it's going to be amazingly silly if, faced with a hostile ship which has just recognised you through your false flag and started shooting, you avoid turning Pirate by hoisting a Pirate flag.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I think I should add a note to the Ship's Log Interface about the flag you were flying for each logged attack and a note about how nation relations were affected.
Adding a note on whether it was a legal attack or not should be quite doable as I already did half the work to set that up.
That would certainly help for trouble-shooting to determine if changes in nation relations were intended or not.

There is no save or any logs.

No save at all? How about one before you met those three ships so I can perform the attack again?
A save WITH them would be preferred, though. Maybe your current save could help too?
Or did you throw everything away altogether? Can't do much trouble-shooting if we have scanty information.

I was flying the Portagee flag at all times. There is no save or any logs.

The Portuguese are friendly to England on that screenshot you show.
Capturing/sinking an English ship while under a friendly-to-them Portuguese flag is considered a major betrayal.
The effects that you observed from that are indeed correct.

You should have gotten a warning on the screen about this when you first fired on those ships while under that flag.
Did that ever happen? If not, that would indeed be a bug. And a silly one at that because you were the one who DID get that warning at the wrong time before.

Something is messed up so that the same three British ships keep showing up.

I'd really like to double-check if they ARE indeed a "punitive squadron" as that would indicate that stock game code that I thought didn't work actually DOES work.
If so, I'll have to see what it does, when and how and we may want to tweak that here and there.

At Jamaica, they recognised you as hostile and started shooting. You, still under Portuguese flag, fought back. But Portugal is probably allied to Britain and, under the new relations system, if you fight against a ship while flying a flag friendly to it, this is extremely dishonourable which is why you turned pirate. If you'd hoisted your personal flag (since you personally are probably hostile to Britain) or a French flag (France is probably hostile to Britain), you would not have turned pirate.

As you're a pirate, the crew feel like pirates as well. And pirates want to be paid by dividing the plunder.

I could've skipped writing the above as you already explained it very well there.

@Pieter Boelen: if you're not currently friendly to Pirates but hoist a Pirate flag before fighting an enemy, what does that do to your relations with Pirates, and for that matter to the rest of the world? Because it's going to be amazingly silly if, faced with a hostile ship which has just recognised you through your false flag and started shooting, you avoid turning Pirate by hoisting a Pirate flag.

Any attack under a pirate flag is considered an "Unrespectable Act". So you get some points with the pirates, but they don't immediately turn friendly and your relations to other nations aren't massively affected either.
That only happens if you do the attack while under a still-friendly flag as in Hylie's example as we decided that was a much worse thing to do than to attack under a pirate flag.

I also prefer to not make it too easy to trigger the whole "massive act of piracy" behaviour, especially unintentionally.
Of course in this case it happened by accident anyway, despite my attempts to add a tutorial for it AND a warning before it happening.
So apparently it IS still too easy. But how to avoid that?

 

[Grey Roger]

Perhaps have an optional auto-hoist when your false flag is recognised - to Served Nation if it's hostile to whoever is shooting at you, or to Personal if you have no Served Nation. But it would need to be optional, preferably controlled by a toggle in "InternalSettings.h", partly in case someone like me doesn't want auto-hoist as I want complete control over my own flags, and partly because someone might want to fire under a friendly flag with the specific aim of immediately turning pirate!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I'd first like to hear @Hylie Pistof if the warning that is supposed to show up actually did.
If not, that would need to be addressed first.

And it would help if some players would mention how they would like this all to behave.
We could do all sorts of things.

Perhaps have an optional auto-hoist when your false flag is recognised - to Served Nation if it's hostile to whoever is shooting at you, or to Personal if you have no Served Nation.

There is no such thing as having no Served Nation; that is, by definition, Personal.

But it would need to be optional, preferably controlled by a toggle in "InternalSettings.h", partly in case someone like me doesn't want auto-hoist as I want complete control over my own flags, and partly because someone might want to fire under a friendly flag with the specific aim of immediately turning pirate!

Yeah, I got that impression.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

It sounds like no one actually read the first post.

The three ships showed up next to my ship as soon as I went to sea after successfully dealing with the smugglers. There are always at least 3 ships there when smuggling and I get caught. No one mentioned the 2 Dutch ships at Willemstad.

So there was the first battle where I fired no shots from my Tartane and I had not done anything for or against the British, so they were at the default -60. How would a punitive squadron get involved?

The second battle happened when the spawned right next to me when I was well out of sight of land. Again I never fired a shot.

The third battle happened out of sight of land also, but this time I had three ships and just went ahead intending to disable them and sail away but it didn't work out that way. I got that message with the first salvo.

The first battle was unusual because there were no soldiers on land and I was not discovered. Other than that it was normal. The other two battles should never have happened.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The three ships showed up next to my ship as soon as I went to sea after successfully dealing with the smugglers. There are always at least 3 ships there when smuggling and I get caught. No one mentioned the 2 Dutch ships at Willemstad.

So there was the first battle where I fired no shots from my Tartane and I had not done anything for or against the British, so they were at the default -60. How would a punitive squadron get involved?

I have absolutely no clue. Why do you think I wanted a savegame? It is better to physically check what is going on than to be left guessing.

If I recall from code rewrites earlier last year, the coastguard ships normally reuse one character ID so there shouldn't be three ships,
Unless I misremember or that got changed recently.

If they are actual coastguard ships, then they should be persistent, but only at the island where you got caught.
I don't think they should follow you around the Caribbean.

The second battle happened when the spawned right next to me when I was well out of sight of land. Again I never fired a shot.

With "out of sight of land", do you mean completely without any island in the scene at all?
If you use DirectSail, by definition there is ALWAYS an island in the scene, even if you may not be seeing it.
But you can tell from the Sail-To menu because you can still have reloads to port.

The third battle happened out of sight of land also, but this time I had three ships and just went ahead intending to disable them and sail away but it didn't work out that way. I got that message with the first salvo.

Ah, so you DID get the warning. At least that part isn't bugged then, making those consequences all fully intentional (and also avoidable by hoisting a personal flag before finishing them off).

So then the only mystery is why there were three ships and why they kept following you.
I'll check the coastguard code tonight to see if there CAN actually be three ships. I don't remember that very well.
And if they always show up with the island where you did your smuggling run in the scene (even if it was out of sight), then that is a plausible explanation too.

Strange though that we've got coastguard ships persisting apparently all the time, but still sometimes have Governor Ship Hunting ships that disappear.
It is the same function that generates them!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I stand corrected; having three coastguard ships IS perfectly possible.
Depends on the player level:

       //Generate the ships
       Group_CreateGroup("Coastal_Guards");
       GenerateQuestShip("Coastal_Captain01", GetSmugglingNation()); // PB: Use Generic Function
       Group_AddCharacter("Coastal_Guards", "Coastal_Captain01");
       Group_SetGroupCommander("Coastal_Guards", "Coastal_Captain01");

       if(GetCompanionQuantity(Pchar) > 1 || makeint(Pchar.rank) > 5)
       {
         GenerateQuestShip("Coastal_Captain02", GetSmugglingNation()); // PB: Use Generic Function
         Group_addCharacter("Coastal_Guards", "Coastal_Captain02");
       }

       if(GetCompanionQuantity(Pchar) > 2 || makeint(Pchar.rank) > 8)
       {
         GenerateQuestShip("Coastal_Captain03", GetSmugglingNation()); // PB: Use Generic Function
         Group_addCharacter("Coastal_Guards", "Coastal_Captain03");
       }

So if they indeed appeared only at the island where you got caught smuggling, then the code at least is not misbehaving.

That being said, there could be one odd thing going on there:
The coastguard ships are generated BEFORE you get caught now and that is definitely something new by @Levis!
Then my question is: If you don't get caught, are the coastguard ships deleted before you go to 3D sailing mode again?

If I see correctly, there are a few ways for the coastguard ships to be removed:
- Three dialog options in the Coast Guard shore dialog
- You ran away before the coastguard caught you, but then only AFTER you reloaded to the worldmap

Hopefully Levis can explain how this is supposed to work.
I probably misunderstand, but it looks like there will ALWAYS be a coastguard ship to catch you and that doesn't seem right.
Also, if you don't get caught, the ship(s) will still be there. And because you didn't "run away", they also aren't removed when you reload to worldmap.
That could make them quite persistent at that particular island.

Thread renamed for accuracy.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I smuggled there before and did not get caught and sailed happily away past unconcerned ships.

On another note, after that fiasco I sailed to Willemstad to refit and also to get that merchant permit because the crew were complaining about wanting to share the loot. So I repaired the ships, got the papers, and got another merchant run. I have no idea why the 2 Dutch warships were hostile. Could it have been because I was recognized on the dock when leaving?

Also, I am now a Pirate Captain with the merchant papers and my crew are complaining again about wanting to sign articles.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Merchant Permits don't work for Pirate Captains, because you're a pirate.
You should get a LoM to get rid of your "pirate" status.

Is Holland still Wary of you? If so, they're NOT hostile so false flags shouldn't matter either way.
Maybe they saw you before under a flag that WAS hostile to Holland?
Do you have a compile.log from that encounter? That should tell us. Remember the name(s) of the ship(s)?

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Everyone is mad at everyone else. When I got into that fight with the 3 British ships only the French and Spanish were friendly, the Dutch and Portagee were at -30 because I bribed them, the British were at -60, and the pirates were at -64.

After that fight the British are at -119, the French, Spanish, and Dutch are at -45, the Portagee were at -60 until I bribed them down to -30, and Pirates are at 0.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Attacking the English under a friendly-to-them Portuguese flag is considered a major act of piracy.
The nation you attack, England, turns maximum hostile. Their allies, Portugal, turns normal hostile because of their alliance.
All other nations turn Wary because they now consider you pretty untrustworthy.
Pirates turn friendly because this was no "minor act of piracy" and they're quite impressed.
That all matches with the code I wrote as per @Grey Roger's suggestion.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

So this whole fiasco is working exactly like you want it to?

POTC 3.3 is still the best version I have.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

You got and saw a warning that you could be considered a pirate for attacking while under a flag friendly to them.
You didn't heed the warning by hoisting a hostile flag at that time and you got the consequences for it when you sank the coast guard ship in the end.
If that is not what you wanted to happen, then don't do it!

As far as the English know, they saw an ally Smuggling on their Island AND resist capture.
That ally then proceeded to sink their coast guard ship.
As far as the game is now concerned, that is just about the worst act of Piracy you can do.
But easily avoided by hoisting a flag actually hostile to them when you get to see the warning to do so.

So now I'd like to know:
- There is already a warning and tutorial quest to tell you about these things, what more can I do to make it clearer?
- Would you consider it acceptable if the game would automatically hoist a more appropriate flag for you?
- What other parts here do you object to and why? This is quite a new feature and I can't improve it without feedback. Now is your chance!

 

[pedrwyth]

This is a good example of the type of scenario I felt the new relations screws up. Whilst I said I was wiling to try it out this chain of events effectively does that and already highlights the problems it brings.

In "logic" terms @Hylie Pistof was not caught smuggling, no soldiers turned up - He was merely caught frequenting a beach that smugglers are known to use.

The coastguard ships open fire on a ship with a friendly flag with no evidence, this should spark an international incident by itself but no, however if you fire back YOU risk starting one. It might make some sense if you had been caught on land, escaped but were the pursued at sea but not when you haven't.

If you escape it appears you are forever after hunted, in those waters at the very least, until you successfully board and then release each ship and woebetide you if you sink one in the process - even if you change your flag the former friendly country (and its allies) turn on you.

In gameplay it sucks because smuggling may well effectively become a dead aspect of the game (not worth the candle) for any friendly/allied island.

A few questions about what happens in the game.

You escape the first time, since the same ID is used for other coastguard ship Captains are you now safe from new coastguard ships everywhere else? Do the existing ones block others or are the first ones wiped out by your next smuggling run? or only wiped if new ones are set elsewhere in other words you will always be being chased by someone?

What are the chances of a coastguard squadron being generated at all?.

Do these hostile ships get reset if you mend your relations with the country in question?

If you board one and leave it does it stay inert/surrendered and blocking any others being generated . Does it reset to hostile next time you return?



My suggestion for improved gameplay is they be wiped on going to worldmap (since you can't do that before you have "escaped") however you avoided them. At least then you know they have been dealt with.

Personally I'm going to change the variable MAXCOASTGUARDCLASS in internal settings that controls what ships they can have (currently level 2 whatever the player level) up to something quite small and change the GenerateQuestShip function in quest_common.c so it is the maximum whatever player skill - they really ought to be just coastguard cutters not ships of the line after all.

If they are still a problem I'll just comment out the code that creates them (perhaps add (or change if there is one) a very low chance element for variety- now I know where it is) and never worry again about what does and doesn't work when confronted by them. I suspect the complexity to smuggling on land (and indeed relation at sea) now means they are not really needed.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

In "logic" terms @Hylie Pistof was not caught smuggling, no soldiers turned up - He was merely caught frequenting a beach that smugglers are known to use.

Indeed the coast guard ships being there AT ALL after not being caught does seem unintentional, which is why this issue is still open.
I'd like @Levis to confirm how that all works now because I got the impression that it doesn't do what I would expect it to, resulting in this.
Actually, I'll mark it as "Confirmed Bug" because it does need to be addressed.

By my reasoning, there isn't a problem with the consequences of your actions; that is all fine.
There IS, however, a problem with coastguard ships attacking you after having NOT been caught smuggling.
That part does not make sense.

You escape the first time, since the same ID is used for other coastguard ship Captains are you now safe from new coastguard ships everywhere else? Do the existing ones block others or are the first ones wiped out by your next smuggling run? or only wiped if new ones are set elsewhere in other words you will always be being chased by someone?

Next time you encounter the coastguard at another island, they'll be removed from the first one.
There IS already some code in place to delete the coastguard ships when you escape to the worldmap. However, I think that never gets triggered here (bug!).
If that is added, then there would no longer be an issue with them being persistent.

What are the chances of a coastguard squadron being generated?.

As far as I can tell from the code, that chance is 100%(!!!) with the exception that they are removed before going to sea if you DO get caught by the soldiers ashore.
But that doesn't catch the case where you aren't caught at all.

Do these hostile ships get reset if you mend your relations with the country in question?

No, they won't. They get the "recognized" attribute to ensure that they ARE hostile, same as other random quest enemy ships.

If you board one and leave it does it stay inert/surrendered and blocking any others being generated . Does it reset to hostile next time you return?

Not entirely sure about that. Though if we guarantee that they ARE removed when you to the worldmap, this becomes a non-issue.

My suggestion for improved gameplay is they be wiped on going to worldmap (since you can't do that before you have "escaped") however you avoided them. At least then you know they have been dealt with.

Agreed.

If they are still a problem I'll just comment out the code that creates them (perhaps add (or change if there is one) a very low chance element for variety- now I know where it is) and never worry again about what does and doesn't work when confronted by them. I suspect the complexity to smuggling on land (and indeed relation at sea) now means they are not really needed.

It seems reasonable that they SHOULD show up if you ARE caught. Just not when you aren't.