Lockpicks

[Tingyun]

Interesting discussion, I only have a couple of thoughts:

1) I like Pieter's system, but with Levis's revision (no defense XP from failing without a lockpick). Basically, being able to pick a lock without a lockpick should be treated as a bad failsafe for when the player doesn't have one, and the player should not be rewarded at all for doing so. No lockpick, no XP of any kind I'd say.

2) Increase luck XP from using a lockpick, because we have to compensate for the current system where you get many failures giving xp bonus. Less failures going forward need to be balanced with better rewards in luck skill.

3) If we implement the /3 divider, I think make lockpicks +2/3 or + 3/3.

4) Lockpicks currently double your chances of picking the lock (expanding the random number range that generates success to be twice what it was before), in addition to their luck bonus. Maybe we could expand that--weaken without a lokcpick to half its curent success value (and no xp) and keep with a lockpick the same.

5) also, I'd say we could stand to make the lockpicks not always break when failing, make that a seperate chance based on luck skill.

Edited with additional suggestions

 

[Pieter Boelen]

So.... Without a Lockpick you keep the current system, but get NO XP at all.
And with a Lockpick, a chest will instantly open and you get Luck XP when it does.

Sounds completely reversed from what @Grey Roger was arguing....

Personally I was thinking of having the XP only if you DO fail.
Because when you succeed, you already get the reward of whatever is behind the lock.
Plus you gain experience through your mistakes moreso than your successes, right?

One thing that I find a bit exploit-y here is that there is no time limit on your attempts,
so you can just spam the F3 button like mad and, assuming you don't die through your failures, it'll work very quickly.
But adding that would take a bit more fiddling with stuf....

 

[Tingyun]

Pieter,

That makes sense. But I like xp on success with the following rationales

A) success with a lockpick doesn't have to mean instant success, it could mean you tried it for a minute or two,mand eventually figured it out. Failure on the other hand means you tried and couldn't figure it out in the end.

You learn from initial difficulty that you eventually succeed from, in fact that is better than failure for learning.

B) Luck XP gain already slows down as the base skill goes up, if always succeeding in lockpicking with high luck also prevents xp gain, then it is slowing it down twice. Seems too much.


Realted point: I don't think lockpicks should be instant successs. In fact, I'd say lets divide in half the success rate both with and without lockpicks, but then give lockpicks only a 20- 2*luck skill percent chance of breaking (so no breaking for a master thief)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

success with a lockpick doesn't have to mean instant success, it could mean you tried it for a minute or two,mand eventually figured it out. Failure on the other hand means you tried and couldn't figure it out in the end.

That could play onto @Grey Roger's suggestion that a Lockpick does NOT guarantee instant success, just that you don't hurt yourself.

Realted point: I don't think lockpicks should be instant successs. In fact, I'd say lets divide in half the success rate both with and without lockpicks, but then give lockpicks only a 20- 2*luck skill percent chance of breaking (so no breaking for a master thief)

That make for a VERY high chance of breaking at the start, to the point of it being quite annoying.

Maybe @Grey Roger and yourself could think of a "best approach" to this?
Clearly there are options aplenty.

 

[Tingyun]

Good point, 10-luck then. Still less than the current guranteed break

 

[Tingyun]

So I would propose (for discussion and revision):

1) Lockpick means XP for succeeding or failing. No lockpick means no XP.

2) Reduce by 50% chance of success for both lockpick and non lockpick conditions.

3) Increase XP gained when using lockpick to pick locks by 50% from current value, to compensate for players using lockpicks but keeping similar xp gain rate to prior not using lockpick and having more failures, to maintain balance.

4) Since we are implementing the difficulty divider for skill bonuses, I think make lockpicks give +2 luck

5) lockpicks have 10-luck chance of breaking, only rolled if you fail at picking the lock. So they should have a much lower chance of breaking on any given attempt.

EDIT: just got caught up on skill bonus divider thread, edited number 4 accordingly.

 

[Grey Roger]

Or:

Leave picking locks without a lockpick as it is, as it's not the problem. If you are desperate to reduce it, lose the Defence XP gain. Leave the Luck XP gain as it is.

Lockpicks can continue to give the +1 bonus. If skill bonuses are being divided for other items then lockpicks can take their chances along with the rest, otherwise drop that idea. Lockpicks can gain a few Luck XP for all failed attempts, and you can't take damage. (Maybe allow the chance of triggering a trap, though reduce it as you're using a more careful method.)

If the lockpick breaks then you can't use another one, but you can continue to try to open the chest without one.

Chance of success should not be reduced. The player is probably not going anywhere until the chest is opened anyway, so reducing the chances just means the player is wasting more time on it. This is not fun.

 

[Tingyun]

Grey Roger,

But that doesn't fix the problem at all?

The player will still be best off not using lockpicks, because more luck XP from more failed attempts, and no real downside. Unless traps are made 10x more damaging, they aren't noticable.

In other words, picking locks without a lockpick IS the problem.

Also, lockpicks need to be boosted to +2 under the new system because of the scarcity of luck boosting realistic items, otherwise the bonus might never exist. It is about the scarcity of that class of skill boosts, not lockpicks specifically.

 

[Grey Roger]

Do you currently get XP from all failed attempts without a lockpick, or just if you take damage? If the former, then give more XP per failed attempt with a lockpick.

Traps can be instant death at low level. The sort of character who can shrug off such an explosion without noticing probably has a high enough Luck skill that the lockpick doesn't matter anyway.

First reduce the effect of skill items, then boost skill items to compensate - alternatively, leave them alone. There are plenty of items which give Luck bonuses - looking through "initItems.c", I can see the lockpick, the good luck charm, and "Drow's Double Your Doubloons". There are also a couple of items which reduce your luck - perhaps the albatross ought to be disabled by the realistic items setting since a dead bird which can fly into your pocket and refuse to come out is at least as unrealistic as a lucky gem. Other than that, don't pick up "Cooking with Albatross" and you should get a total of +3, which is as much as I can see for most other skills, not including the "unrealistic" jewellery and Inca items.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Since there is no general consensus yet, I'm taking no action until there is.
If you guys want to experiment with it, the relevant file is PROGRAM\ITEMS\itemLogic.c, search for LOCKPICK_ITEM_TYPE:

    if(!OpenLock)
     // If the lock is not yet open, try to open the lock
     {
       lock = rand(100) + 3 * makeint(chr.skill.sneak) + LOCK_OPEN;
       // Chance to open the lock
       if(CheckCharacterEquipByGroup(chr, LOCKPICK_ITEM_TYPE) != "") lock = 2 * lock;
       // Having a lockpick doubles your chance of opening a lock

       if(lock + NO_MINES < 20 && !CheckAttribute(Locations[locidx],"trapboxes."+atrName))
       // Boobytrap: If the boobytrap already exploded, don't explode again
       {
         Log_SetStringToLog(TranslateString("","Boobytrapped") + "!");
         Explosion (chr, rand(20));
         if(ONE_TRAP) Locations[locidx].trapboxes.(atrName) = true;
         return;
       }
       if(lock < 33 && CheckCharacterEquipByGroup(chr, LOCKPICK_ITEM_TYPE) == "")
       // Hurt yourself: You never hurt yourself if you have a lockpick
       {
         if(chr.sex == "woman") PlaySound("OBJECTS\VOICES\DEAD\female\dead_wom4.wav");
         else PlaySound("OBJECTS\VOICES\DEAD\male\dead6.wav");
         Log_SetStringToLog(TranslateString("","Your prying knife slips from the lock... into your hand!"));

         if(AUTO_SKILL_SYSTEM)
         {
           AddPartyExpChar(chr, "Defence", 50+Rand(100));
           AddPartyExpChar(chr, "Sneak", 50+Rand(100));   // LDH added 28Dec08
         }
         else
         {
           AddCharacterExp(chr, 50+Rand(100));
         }
         LAi_ApplyCharacterDamage(chr, 10);
         if (sti(LAi_GetCharacterHP(chr)) < 11) Lai_KillCharacter(chr);
         return;
       }
       if(lock < 66)
       // Fail to open the lock
       {
         if(CheckCharacterEquipByGroup(chr, LOCKPICK_ITEM_TYPE) != "")
         {
           PlaySound("AMBIENT\JAIL\chains.wav");
           Log_SetStringToLog(TranslateString("","You failed to open the lock with your lockpick. Better try again."));
         }
         else
         {
           PlaySound("AMBIENT\JAIL\jail_door1.wav");
           Log_SetStringToLog(TranslateString("","You try to pick the lock with your knife... in vain!"));
         }
         if(AUTO_SKILL_SYSTEM)
         {
           AddPartyExpChar(chr, "Defence", 50+Rand(100));
           AddPartyExpChar(chr, "Sneak", 50+Rand(100));    // LDH added 28Dec08
         }
         else
         {
           AddPartyExp(chr, 50+Rand(100));
         }
         return;
       }
       if(CheckCharacterEquipByGroup(chr, LOCKPICK_ITEM_TYPE) != "" && rand(100) < 10)
       // Lockpick fails
       {
         PlaySound("AMBIENT\JAIL\sigh.wav");       // Player sighs because his lockpick failed :-P
         TakeItemFromCharacter(chr,"lockpick");     // One lockpick is taken away
         Log_SetStringToLog(TranslateString("","Your lockpick broke and got stuck in the lock!"));
         Locations[locidx].jammed.(atrName) = true;   // The lock can't be opened anymore
         if(AUTO_SKILL_SYSTEM)
         {
           AddPartyExpChar(chr, "Defence", 50+Rand(100));
           AddPartyExpChar(chr, "Sneak", 50+Rand(100));   // LDH added 28Dec08
         }
         else
         {
           AddPartyExp(chr, 50+Rand(100));
         }
         return;
       }
       OpenLock = true;
     }

I reckon that code is relatively straight-forward so modifying it should not be too difficult.

Without a Lockpick, you're not doing it the proper "thief's way" and I don't think you should get a thief's skill (Luck) from that.
You're trying to force open the lock with a knife, so Defence is much more logical there.

@Grey Roger doesn't want to lose the "gaining Luck" part, so he should use the Lockpick.
Providing a reason to use the Lockpick is exactly why we're talking about changing changing anything in the first place.
Clearly that change makes it actually important to at least him and therefore serves exactly its intended purpose!

 

[Tingyun]

What is low level? At level 1 I picked locks and the traps never killed me (well, maybe level 2 or 3...those early levels all kind of hapened at once since you go up in level from talking to like 5 guys ). At most an explosion would take down 1/3 of my hp. Then I would pick a few more times and use a bandage if needed. Yep, you get XP for failed attempts, and at low levels you go up fast, so always worth the bandage even at level 1.

Seriously, level 1 castaway here playing straight through to level 18 now, playing all through I have NEVER found a trap to be even annoying.

As for skill items, balancing sometimes requires reducing one aspects, and then improving another, no? I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

But you are right regarding good luck charm--for some reason I had classified it with the bronze cross and lucky ring and other unrealistic boosts, but you are right it is in the realistic catagory (for some odd reason ). So there are +3 possible.

I still like lockpicks to +2 though, makes lockpicks grant a +1 base skill on the default (2) difficulty level, which they should.