Packet Boat

[Captain Armstrong]

Good points! But having the right kind of hull lines does not make a ship period accurate. The words of the potbs wiki are rather vague, the examplarary qualities could mean anything from speed and size to having fairly fine lines. But it convienintly avoids the changes in ship design that took place between 1720 and 1767. It is quite a generalization to say that ship design didnt change much in the 1700s. there was no drastic transition from galleys to sailing vesssels or much of that nature, but the changes in proportions, dimensions, sheer, layout, decorations, rig, and general appearance are evident when comparing ships from opposite ends of the century. Appearance can change quite a bit with the same hull lines as well with different arrangements and decorations above water. Rider, would it be possible to have a version with the original bowsprit as well as the one with the spritsail topmast? That way we could have a packet ship for both the early and mid ( and maybe even late?) 1700s.

 

[modernknight1]

But it convienintly avoids the changes in ship design that took place between 1720 and 1767. It is a generalization of one focused on other eras to say that ship design didnt change much in the 1700s.

Sorry, but I think that's unfair and unkind.

I may be a particular fan of the 17th century, but consider myself very knowledgeable in all hull forms from the 14th century up to the 19th century. As I've said before in other posts, when I was a lad, the USS Constitution and the Yankee built frigates of the turn of the 18th/19th centuries were my very favorite ships. I studied them in depth and still love Yankee ships. As I studied history over the years and earned my MA in it - as I became exposed to art and a larger body of knowledge, my tastes changed. So I don't think it fair at all to say that I'm generalizing - because my knowledge spans all the eras of the age of sail and - I love most things - tall ships related.

If anything I feel like I have been fighting a very unfair and losing battle for years now against folks around here that are fanatic and extremely biased for everything 18th/19th century and have little or no interest in anything earlier. Even though ship evolution and form is much more noticeably dramatic and fast paced like a child racing through adolescence to adulthood - and then much less change occurring after - at say age 20 to 30.

I cited my scholarly resource - and I have many more sources. I didn't make the comments without first looking into it. The illustrations I have show the same virtual profiles in 1720 as the pictures shown in this thread.

I would be very interested to know what those specific and particular design changes are in barks, English yachts, pinks, and cats, as well as Baltic packet boats that you say are present between 1720 and 1767. Maybe I am missing something from looking at all those line drawings and paintings with very little rake. I myself see no distinctions except the decoration becoming over time less prevalent/more spartan and the use of one or two less strakes along the hulls.

So what am I missing then? Please enlighten me.

I think I have become a little too worked up about the whole gaming thing anyway lately. I may need to just take a break from it for a few months and do a lot more sailing for real. If my boat weren't deadlined I would be now - gotta buy a new one soon.

Sorry

MK

 

[Armada]

In fairness, I don't think Captain Armstrong meant any offence; his post is worded slightly differently to how it was when you quoted it.

 

[Captain Armstrong]

You have nothing to be sorry about! The first part wasnt directed at you, I meant FLS! It was convenient for them to say that to support that their ships are all adequetely close to the 1720s in design. I must admit that the second part was too far on my part, i realized that almost immediately and edited it out, but unfortunately you got there first. I apologize. and in a broader sense you are certainly right that ship design in the 1700s didnt change as much as in other centuries. but i guess what i was trying to say is that doesnt mean it didnt change at all. You have an a vast array of knowledge about everything age of sail. I like debating things with you because I usually learn quite a bit in the process! I must admit I don't know enough about the design of early 18th century packets, but following the trends of ship design in general, the earlier ships would've had a more pronounced sheer, hawse holes entering on the deck below, a beak head bulkhead, and(as you say) more strakes and more elaborate decoration. There are a lot of people here who like the later periods, but many who also like the same periods as you! and from what ive seen of the GOF eras mod, you arent exactly losing! quite a few fine early period ships in those screenshots I hope you dont take a break because of me! You must have amazing weather where you are to consider going sailing! Where I am it's still below freezing and was still snowing regularly until about a week ago

 

[Rider88]

It was a surprise for me that my post provoked such an active discussion! thank you, guys! It was interesting to read.

Now let me explain. There are certain reasons why I made such a rigging for the FLS packet boat. First of all, I'm currently playing POTEHO. It is the most modern and outstanding project based on Age of Pirates 2 mostly because much more realistic sailing qualities, it has very interesting storyline, there are many useful improvements such as reworked damage model and necessity of using the navigational tools. There are a new type of vessel called 'shnyava' (which actually means 'snow' in Russian), her model is much more detailed than old AoP2 models but still not so detailed as player-created ships, so I was looking for a replacement. I couldn't replace it with the vessel with different rigging, because in POTEHO the PROGRAM folder is locked and I can't change sailing characteristics of the ships, that is why I needed a detailed snow to replace shnyava. And then I decided to go with the FLS packet just to have some practice in Maya (it was before I started to work on my barque) and because I really had no time and will to create a snow from scratch, mainly because I am already working on one, just a different version. So I needed a three-masted snow for POTEHO, which time period is mid 17th century (the year of the start of the game is 1654). Of course there were no snows at that time, but I wanted my snow to look as close to the game time period as possible. And about the incompatibility of a spritsail topmast and gaff mizzen sail I can say that there's nothing strange in this design. I took the sailing plan of Munker snow launched in Russia in 1704 and her rigging was exactly the same as I made for the packet, here is the picture:

Rider, would it be possible to have a version with the original bowsprit as well as the one with the spritsail topmast? That way we could have a packet ship for both the early and mid ( and maybe even late?) 1700s.

Of course it would! I have the model of the original bowsrpit and I will remake the locators for it just after I finish the conversion of this version, as I did with SeaNoris' Neptunus privateer.

 

[Post Captain]

Note that that shouldn't be called a snow by every standard I remember seeing. It would require a trys'l mast (snow mast) properly spaced from the mizzen, and I've never seen a ship's mizzen that exactly meets that standard. That would appear to be a normal barque rig.

 

[Rider88]

Well, in many sources (Russian mostly) this type of vessel is called 'Baltic snow' or 'three-masted snow', and such of vessel as St.Peter, for example, is called 'snow-brig'. I can guess that such three-masted barque-snows are exclusive Baltic vessels and they didn't spread anywhere outside Baltic sea. Creators of Pirates Odyssey: To Each His Own are Russians, so maybe that is the reason why they included this vessel in their game.

 

[Post Captain]

Interesting... St. Peter is definitely a snow by the usual standards, but I've never heard of a barque being refereed to as a snow. One would think that that would require a snow mast. I've seen plenty of ships of the era with trys'l masts, but they don't qualify as snow masts because they are too close to the corresponding lower masts.

The discrepancy could just be a case of vocabulary changing over time.

 

[Noriruru]

How's this ship coming along?