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Panthère, 1744

Discussion in 'Ships' started by Bava, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. Bava

    Bava Wannabe Shipwright Coordinator QC Advisor 3D Artist Storm Modeller

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    As the title says, this is the WIP thread for the Panthère, a 20-gun 6-pounder frigate.

    The original ship was designed by the famous french shipwright Blaise Olivier and launched as one of the first 'true' frigates in Brest in 1744 and captured by the Royal Navy in the same year. There, under her new name Amazon, she served during the War of the Austrian Succession till the end of the Seven Years War, taking at least ten french prizes. More backround information on her can be found here: click

    Technical data (french pied du Roi):
    Armament (french service):
    Armament (british service):
    Compared with the armament, length and displacement of her bigger sister ships Siréne and Renommée
    it seems that the Panthère was 'undergunned' for her size.
    One reason could be that Olivier experimented with hull length, shape and displacement and didn´t want to adulterate the experiment with an armament too heavy for the ships in question, which could severely affect their sailing qualities.

    The Panthère and Renommée had the same hull shape, but different lengths and displacement, while Siréne and Renommée had the same length and displacement, but a slightly different hull shape. All three were the culmination of Olivier´s experiences with his, and his father´s, previous frigates, the Astrée (1728, 116', 22 8-pounders) and the Medée (1741, 121', 26 8-pounders).

    For the sake of completeness, here are the dimensions and armament of comparable british frigates:

    Sailing Qualities

    While there are no sources which could tell how well/bad the Panthère performed at sea, a contemporary british sailing report of the Renommée is available at the archives of the NMM and can also be found in Boudriot´s 'History of the French Frigate':

    The sailing characteristics mentioned in this report are typical for french frigates of the period, although most probably all of them were 1 to 3 knots slower than the Renommée (Gardiner states that 'she was the finest of the french prizes' taken during the War of the Austrian Succession ) and prone to rolling and pitching.

    As a side note, it is worth mentioning that, during the War of the Austrian Succession, a high percentage of french frigates were captured by english 50- or 60-gun ships, usually in adverse weather conditions. English frigates of the 1745 Establishment were top-heavy and mediocre sailors at best and no match for their french counterparts, while the english 4th rates had a favourable length-to-breath ratio, giving them good sailing characteristics.

    Most french 5th and 6th rates were fast in fair weather, had one or two good points of sailing and usually steered well, but their performance deteriorated in heavier seas, in some cases dramatically so.

    This can be explained by the light built typical for french frigates. French shipwrights reduced internal fastenings and dimensions of structual elements like deck beams to a minimum in order to reduce the overall weigth.

    While theoretically this practice gave the ships higher speeds, it also reduced weatherliness, structural stability and, accordingly, potential service time.

    One of the first things usually done when captured french ships were fitted out for the much more demanding service in the Royal Navy, was the installation of additional knees and bigger dimensioned beams and fittings.

    But this could not completely remedy the shortcomings of the initial light built, maintenance costs for french prizes were substantial higher than for vessels of british origin.
    For example, the Renommée needed one great repair and two smaller ones during her 24 years of service - the monetary equivalent of one newly built british frigate -, the Panthère one midling repair and two small repairs in 18 years.


    (cursive parts may be subject to change, combining Gardiner´s view and this article)

    But the fact that the british admirality didn´t hesitate to pay the higher expenses shows that french frigates posessed qualities that made them highly valuable for the Royal Navy.
    Ships like the Renommée were much sought-after commands, as capable captains could make a fortune in prize money in a relative short time.

    And in the case of the Panthère, the french influence lasted well into the 19th century. Her lines
    were used for the Myrmidon (1781), the Echo-class of 1782 (6 ships), the Cormorant-class of 1794 (7 ships) and variations of the Cormorant-class (starting 1806, 21 ships)

    Plan


    Link to the contemporary draught, showing her as captured:

    http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/83818.html

    Latest WIP pics:
    4.jpg
    3.jpg
    5.jpg
    1.jpg 2.jpg
    7.jpg

    Figurehead and carvings are made by our resident ZBrush artist Sisko.
    And many thanks to Thomas Rauzy, who provided a lot of additional information!

    If you have any questions, feel free to ask :)

    Regards,
    Bava
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2014
    Post Captain likes this.
  2. jokash

    jokash Sailor

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    :keith gorgeous
  3. modernknight1

    modernknight1 Field Marshall of Hot Tubs Banned

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    Very nice! Looking forward to seeing this one finished. If she has the right look I'm after, I may be interested in buying her from you if you're interested in selling her.

    MK
  4. Bava

    Bava Wannabe Shipwright Coordinator QC Advisor 3D Artist Storm Modeller

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    Tempting :p But I can´t sell it as the ship is for PA and a Mount&Blade mod/Open Source Project. And if you happen to like it, I´ll gladly 'donate' it to your project, as appreciation for your efforts.
    If there´s one thing I really, really, really want to play then its a realistic sailing/ship combat simulator in a state-of-the-art engine. Consider me your potential target audience :D

    Regarding the look, it´s going to be a mix of the Astree (1728)/Renommee (1744) and the Dauphine (1704). As far as I know, the 1720s have been a transitional period in terms of shipbuilding, eventually leading to the first true (french) frigate, Olivier´s Medee. And I want to show some aspects to this transition to the best of my knowledge.

    The decorations will probably be based on these drawings:


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (all made in the 1720s)


    This is going to be fun :p
  5. modernknight1

    modernknight1 Field Marshall of Hot Tubs Banned

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  6. Bava

    Bava Wannabe Shipwright Coordinator QC Advisor 3D Artist Storm Modeller

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    There´s only one plan for a ship similiar to the Dauphine (and which they most probably used for the reconstruction) that I know of, interestingly it´s preserved in the Danish National Archives. A smaller version is in Boudriot`s "The History of the French Frigate". Another good candidate for an early frigate would be this:
    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/74304344/TotSK/L - FrenchFrigate 1670 18guns.PNG
    Or:
    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/74304344/Plans/M - Aurore Fregate Legere 1697.jpg
    I modelled the hull for this one not long ago, a real cutie :p

    [​IMG]

  7. KrisWood

    KrisWood Freebooter Storm Modeller Storm Modder

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    Very pretty! What texture are you using for the hull, is it one that's used for other ships in the mod? I'd like to use it for my 7 Provencien if it wouldn't be out of place.
  8. Captain Armstrong

    Captain Armstrong Corsair Coordinator 3D Artist Storm Modeller Storm Modder

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    Looks great, as usual! I think I recognize those headrails:p the stern decorations look very ornate from the drawings, if they turn out like the rest of the ship they should look amazing.
  9. Bava

    Bava Wannabe Shipwright Coordinator QC Advisor 3D Artist Storm Modeller

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    'Small' change of plan, I´ll put this frigate on hold for now. I´ve found some really nice draughts on maritiemdigitaal that are more suitable for my project:

    Vollenhoven 1707
    [​IMG]
    Twickel 1726
    [​IMG]
    Hof Sint Janskerken 1733
    [​IMG]

    and a very nice chap from a german modelling board gave me this beautifull plan (1729):

    [​IMG]


    Dunno which one I´m going to use, though choice...:)
  10. jokash

    jokash Sailor

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    im joker 50:50 and i say Vollenhoven or Twickel
  11. Captain Armstrong

    Captain Armstrong Corsair Coordinator 3D Artist Storm Modeller Storm Modder

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    I would say either the 1733 or 1729. but of course I would rather see the HMS Phoebe :p
  12. Armada

    Armada Sea Dog Staff Member Admin Project Manager 3D Artist Storm Modder

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    I like the look of the last ship (1729), personally. Could be a potential replacement for the stock Battleship1 model; similar size and shape... :wp
  13. Bava

    Bava Wannabe Shipwright Coordinator QC Advisor 3D Artist Storm Modeller

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    *blowsthedustoffthethread*

    Works goes on, nothing spectacular, but I made one of the ship´s bells:

    [​IMG]

    The text says "Fecit 1744" (made in 1744), the ship´s name is on the opposite side of the bell. Not entirely happy with the colour for the cast bronze, it will need more work. The bell has 253 tris (metal parts have normal+spec map), the whole thing 1958 tris.
    Captain Armstrong likes this.
  14. Captain.Sparrow

    Captain.Sparrow Freebooter

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    the pictures are not working :(
  15. Captain Armstrong

    Captain Armstrong Corsair Coordinator 3D Artist Storm Modeller Storm Modder

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    That looks amazing! Brilliant work.:) I'm confused though, is it still for the Panthere? or are you making the Renomee now? or just using the details from the Renomee plan for the Panthere?
  16. Bava

    Bava Wannabe Shipwright Coordinator QC Advisor 3D Artist Storm Modeller

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    Good guess, CA, the year 1744 gave it away, he? ;) But it´s the other way round, Renommee with features of the Panthere (and the Sirene): less gun ports, slightly different deck layout and side galleries etc. The Sirene is almost a sister ship and the Panthere is basically a scaled down version of the Renommee, so this should work. And there´s the NMM plan after her Great Repair, so a bristish version as HMS Renown is also possible :)

    Another bonus is that I can use a lot of parts for the Belle Poule, too.

    @ Captain.Sparrow

    the pics were in my old dropbox folder, but I don´t have it anymore. Sorry.
    Captain Armstrong likes this.
  17. Captain Armstrong

    Captain Armstrong Corsair Coordinator 3D Artist Storm Modeller Storm Modder

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    1744 did give it away;) Well great! This will be an interesting project indeed:) an HMS Renown version would be neat! her looks were improved during the great repair IMO. Looks like all 3 sets of Boudriot's frigate plans will be used to some extent for Hearts of Oak :D
  18. Bava

    Bava Wannabe Shipwright Coordinator QC Advisor 3D Artist Storm Modeller

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    Update on the hull of the Panthére, I hope I got the thickness of the outer planks right this time:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The French knew how to build elegant ships, eh? :p
  19. Captain Armstrong

    Captain Armstrong Corsair Coordinator 3D Artist Storm Modeller Storm Modder

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    Indeed they did! Great work so far mate, glad to see some good progress here!:onya She is shaping up well, and you cut the Oarports in too!
  20. Bava

    Bava Wannabe Shipwright Coordinator QC Advisor 3D Artist Storm Modeller

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    Thanks, mate :) The oar ports are just booleaned right now, dunno if I´m to going to keep them or not.

    I´m having a little trouble with the head of the vessel, I have no idea if she had a beakhead bulkhead or a round bow. Here´s the drawing:

    PAN_head.jpg


    And here´s how I 'solved' this problem in the first version of the hull:
    PAN_head1.jpg

    Another option would be the omission of the quarterdeck and the head will look like in my WIP pics above. Thoughts? :)

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