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Abandoned Porting to Storm 2.8 Engine: Is it possible?

Mirsaneli

Privateer
Storm Modder
I was wondering, is it possible to convert the whole New Horizons Mod to Age of Pirates II engine? I'm enjoying the current Mod and every day I get fascinated with new things that make this Mod so dynamic and get the feeling that the ingame world lives it's own life. However, POTC is an old game. It isn't quite compatible with new CPU's and GPU's. Not to mention that Age of Pirates II brought some new features and better graphics. Maybe you guys have already considered this suggestion a long time ago, and I'm as newby and complete noob in storm engine coding, talking about something which maybe isn't even possible. But comparing the POTC with the AoP II which I also have installed on my PC, even in large battles, I don't get any performance drops when playing AoP 2. Also, in AoP II guards attack you when you fight civilians and even attack you if you kill them in their houses. Muskets are fired with both hands and not as pistols etc. So, there are a lot of good things within the Storm engine 2.8, but again, I don't know if this is possible, just saying that it would be a nice thing, cause GoF Mod isn't as close as good like the New Horizons Mod.
 
We've hoped to do that in the past. Theoretically a lot of that would indeed be possible.
The amount of work, time and effort required borders on the completely insane though

Whatever performance issues we still have in PotC, they're probably because of inefficiencies in the mod coding.
Even if we could port that to AoP 2, we'd port the problems along with it. The real issue there isn't with the engine.

There is a long-standing bug related to town guard relations in the mod. We haven't yet had the chance to look into that because it isn't a high priority issue.
See here for details: Confirmed Bug - Unintentional Fights or Lack Thereof (aka. AI Group Relations) | PiratesAhoy!

The use of muskets in PotC has MASSIVELY improved with the Beta 4 WIP as they're carried on the shoulder properly.

Long story short: This is never going to happen.
Virtually all issues could be solved on the PotC end, but it all takes time and effort (and lots of it too!).
There are a few engine things that CoAS does better, that much is true. But there is nothing that can be done about that.
Except to make a brand new start, like we're trying to do with Hearts of Oak.
 
Well, that isn't so discouraging. If I understand you right, Storm engine 2 isn't so limited and there are a lot of things that can be changed over time which could bring features available in COAS?
Hearts of Oak seems like a nice project, but I guess it will take a lot of time to make a new game from scratch. There is a game that is currently in development on the Cryengine, it's called Traction Wars, I'm waiting for that game. Maybe you could link with those guys cause they are very good with Cryengine and they are developing that game for free, when they have spare time, just like you guys here do make this mod for your own satisfaction.
 
Indeed most of the issues should be fixable within PotC as they aren't engine related. :yes

We tried making Hearts of Oak on CryEngine but had to abandon that.
 
Some things were ported over to the GOF mod for CoAS, there are also some things from GOF that have found there way to POTC, but as Pieter points out, it is a very time consuming project. There is also the fact that CoAS uses DLL files for a lot of it's engine processes, and those aren't easily accessible like the C files in POTC. There are certainly things that are just done differently in CoAS. That, combined with the limitations of the engine and a few other things, led us to decide creating Hearts of Oak from scratch on a modern engine would be the most productive use of our time.

CoAS also had a much more robust DRM that added to the challenge. The biggest reason it never got very far however was the fact that we couldn't seem to form a true team to work on the project. Everyone seemed to be working on things independently, or in small groups, and there never really was any real cohesion, though it was attempted several times by many good people. I am by no means blaming anyone in particular, there were just a lot of challenges with CoAS that POTC never had to face.
 
There is also the fact that CoAS uses DLL files for a lot of it's engine processes, and those aren't easily accessible like the C files in POTC.
That's not entirely true. CoAS has an open PROGRAM folder same as PotC.
The base code between both games is similar enough that tricks that work in one of them often work in the other too.
But they're so different that blindly porting stuff is extremely impractical, if not impossible.

The only thing I know that apparently cannot be as easily edited in CoAS as in PotC are the particle effects.
I know of nobody who ever figured out the CoAS ones, while the PotC ones can easily be modified with some trial-and-error.

We also have the CoAS source code somewhere, so in theory we could edit MORE there than for PotC.
But that takes yet more time and effort and requires people who actually REALLY know their way around C-code to do it.
So again... not going to happen.

The biggest reason it never got very far however was the fact that we couldn't seem to form a true team to work on the project. Everyone seemed to be working on things independently, or in small groups, and there never really was any real cohesion, though it was attempted several times by many good people. I am by no means blaming anyone in particular, there were just a lot of challenges with CoAS that POTC never had to face.
Oh, PotC faced very similar challenges, I can assure you! But we never let that put a stop to the project.
Many old people may have left, but we never gave up and eventually new people took their place.
Of course that may be related to some of those (by now) "old-timers" not actually leaving.... ;)
 
That's not entirely true. CoAS has an open PROGRAM folder same as PotC.

Open Program folder, yes, but there are a lot of things that are closed.

The base code between both games is similar enough that tricks that work in one of them often work in the other too.
But they're so different that blindly porting stuff is extremely impractical, if not impossible.

Yup, similar just aint good enough in this case.

We also have the CoAS source code somewhere, so in theory we could edit MORE there than for PotC.
But that takes yet more time and effort and requires people who actually REALLY know their way around C-code to do it.
So again... not going to happen.

Even if we had someone capable at the time to really dig in to the source code, I reckon we would have been able to do quite a great many things, and that certainly would have made transferring things if not easier, at least more practical. After spending all that time though, there is still the engine limitations and DRM to contend with. Hearts of Oak is the best solution.

Oh, PotC faced very similar challenges, I can assure you! But we never let that put a stop to the project.
Many old people may have left, but we never gave up and eventually new people took their place.
Of course that may be related to some of those (by now) "old-timers" not actually leaving.... ;)

I am well aware of the challenges both faced mate. POTC also had a LOT of help from the original developers when we first started, and of course those mod tools have been invaluable! We did not have that kind of cooperation with CoAS, even though we did eventually get the source code. POTC also had a lot of original tutorials to fall back on, some of them just didn't help a lot for CoAS. One of the things POTC didn't have to deal with, at least not til many years into development, was having a directly competing Mod being developed on the same forum and splitting resources. Also, as you point out, there was always at least one constant throughout almost all of POTC's development. :cheers
 
Open Program folder, yes, but there are a lot of things that are closed.
There are? I never did look very much into it and never ever will either. :shrug

Even if we had someone capable at the time to really dig in to the source code, I reckon we would have been able to do quite a great many things, and that certainly would have made transferring things if not easier, at least more practical. After spending all that time though, there is still the engine limitations and DRM to contend with. Hearts of Oak is the best solution.
Very true. But that never happened. Kicking out the DRM should have been doable.
But definitely Hearts of Oak is the best way to truly go forward. By far!

I am well aware of the challenges both faced mate. POTC also had a LOT of help from the original developers when we first started, and of course those mod tools have been invaluable! We did not have that kind of cooperation with CoAS, even though we did eventually get the source code.
I wasn't around for that true start of PotC modding, so don't know how much the developers helped out.
But definitely Edward Zaitsev from seaward.ru did do what he could to help us with CoAS; that much I do remember.
He answered a lot of our questions on modeling/exporting and sent us a bunch of files that have proven quite useful.
Though they did admittedly see their biggest use on PotC in the end.

POTC also had a lot of original tutorials to fall back on, some of them just didn't help a lot for CoAS.
What tutorials were those? The PotC ones were written by the modders here, no?
So any CoAS modder could have done the same.

One of the things POTC didn't have to deal with, at least not til many years into development, was having a directly competing Mod being developed on the same forum and splitting resources.
Was there not such a situation between the Sea Dogs and PotC mods?
Anyway, there was quite a bit of cooperation between PotC and CoAS modding at the start, because everybody had hoped to eventually make the port. Especially once we got that source code!
But when CoAS modding withered away, eventually it became clear that was never going to happen.

Also, as you point out, there was always at least one constant throughout almost all of POTC's development. :cheers
I think having one person always trying to move things ahead and keeping things centralized probably played a very big role.
But you could hardly have expected me to do that for two games at the same time. I had always hoped somebody else would step in there for CoAS.
Which almost happened many times. But not quite....
 
And now, what engine will Hearts of Oak be using? I know very little about game developing. And from what I know, it will take years to release just a Beta version of the game. Not to mention the game testing and fixing bugs after the release. From my point of view, a transition from POTC to Age of Pirates II would have been a better solution, but again, I don't know anything about modding and I'm not familiar with the storm engine, so maybe it would be a lot of work or even impossible to have New Horizons on storm engine 2.8.

All my posts are just questions. I'm new into this, but I really like New Horizons. I guess even the original developers of POTC and AoP series would be delighted to see what you guys have done. :)
 
And now, what engine will Hearts of Oak be using?
Unity.

Not to mention the game testing and fixing bugs after the release. From my point of view, a transition from POTC to Age of Pirates II would have been a better solution
IF people had been willing to cooperate and make it happen, then maybe. Maybe.
But even then.... Storm 2.8 is hardly more advanced than Storm 2.0 is and is technically already outdated as well by today's standard.
So no.... not really.

maybe it would be a lot of work or even impossible to have New Horizons on storm engine 2.8.
The amount of work would be ludicrous. You'd need a lot of dedicated people who know what they're doing to pull that one off.
If there were infinite time and goodwill, it could be done. Or get a bunch of persons paid to do the job.
But if we're being practical and realistic about it, no it isn't actually feasible.

I really like New Horizons.
As do we! We've still got hopes of bringing it further.
As I mentioned in another thread, it is a great testing ground to prepare more advanced systems that can later be applis to Hearts of Oak as well.
It is easier to experiment with and develop with a game that is easly moddable and is already at a good state to work from. :cheeky
 
I wasn't around for that true start of PotC modding, so don't know how much the developers helped out.
But definitely Edward Zaitsev from seaward.ru did do what he could to help us with CoAS; that much I do remember.
He answered a lot of our questions on modeling/exporting and sent us a bunch of files that have proven quite useful.
Though they did admittedly see their biggest use on PotC in the end.

Yes, Edward helped out quite a bit with CoAS. I am not sure if he was on the original Sea Dogs or POTC team, that was just too long ago. I do know that we would not have some of the modding tools for POTC without the help of some of the Akella team. I know some were also created by other modders. I guess Akella figured they could borrow some of our POTC code in return!

What tutorials were those? The PotC ones were written by the modders here, no?
So any CoAS modder could have done the same.

Those are the tutorials I mean, and yes, they were written by the original modders. A lot of that information was originally on the forum, but was transferred to the other server and set up as HTML tutorials after the first really bad server crash. The CoAS modders could have, yes, but no one chose to go to quite that extent. Although there were, and still are, some CoAS tutorials around on the forum somewhere.

Was there not such a situation between the Sea Dogs and PotC mods?
Not with Sea Dogs, no, we didn't do a lot of work on that game, though there was a bit. Hosehead and the LIB did almost all of that, and they helped us and worked along with us when we first started modding. Without them, PA would not be here. The problems started when a couple of our modders decided to make it a competition between PA and Ellaybe, they also failed to give credit for work that was done by others and claimed it as their own, very not cool! That was almost the end of the Build Mod and PA, unfortunately I think that whole mess is what ultimately led to NK stepping down. I certainly did not mean to imply that the Build Mod hadn't faced any challenges as tough as CoAS, but the challenges faced by both teams were different.

Anyway, there was quite a bit of cooperation between PotC and CoAS modding at the start, because everybody had hoped to eventually make the port. Especially once we got that source code!
But when CoAS modding withered away, eventually it became clear that was never going to happen.

Yup, that sums it up nicely.

I think having one person always trying to move things ahead and keeping things centralized probably played a very big role.
But you could hardly have expected me to do that for two games at the same time. I had always hoped somebody else would step in there for CoAS.
Which almost happened many times. But not quite....

Absolutely it did! I have said it many times before, and I will say it again, without your leadership New Horizons would be nothing even close to what it is today. If it even still existed at all. I know what it has taken out of you to do what you have done here Pieter, and I knew there was no way you would be able to do that for CoAS as well. Don't take this the wrong way, but I am glad that you stepped back from Hearts of Oak too, I don't want to see you burned out as well! I have seen a lot of what has gone on over these forums for the past 12 1/2 years, even though I haven't commented on it all. I hope that my efforts at recruiting have at least helped to make your job a bit easier mate.
 
Don't take this the wrong way, but I am glad that you stepped back from Hearts of Oak too, I don't want to see you burned out as well! I have seen a lot of what has gone on over these forums for the past 12 1/2 years, even though I haven't commented on it all. I hope that my efforts at recruiting have at least helped to make your job a bit easier mate.

So you guys are not part of the Hearts of Oak developers team?
 
So you guys are not part of the Hearts of Oak developers team?
For me personally it's to early to help.
When I have time left I try to read up on some discussions and comment but that's not often. When the base mechanics are in place I can help out more I think. And besides that potc needs me more now.
 
So you guys are not part of the Hearts of Oak developers team?
The way I make quests there has to be a game first and POTC already consumes most of my time. But maybe in the future.
 
The way I make quests there has to be a game first and POTC already consumes most of my time. But maybe in the future.

Well, I have to say that quests are awesome! I'm very satisfied with the quests and storylines in POTC. I still hope that I might see New Horizons on Age of Pirates 2 engine some day :D I wish I knew anything about modding and coding :D
 
I really havn't made all quests! :no
I wish I knew anything about modding and coding
It's always possible to start with something minor/limited and continue to bigger
things. That's what many people here have done.
 
I still hope that I might see New Horizons on Age of Pirates 2 engine some day :D
If you don't want to be disappointed, give up that hope right here and now. It will never happen.

I wish I knew anything about modding and coding :D
I knew hardly anything when I started on it here so many years ago.
Now I pretty much do it for a living. And it was mainly PotC that taught be the basics.
So if you want to, we're here to help. :doff
 
If you don't want to be disappointed, give up that hope right here and now. It will never happen.


I knew hardly anything when I started on it here so many years ago.
Now I pretty much do it for a living. And it was mainly PotC that taught be the basics.
So if you want to, we're here to help. :doff
I'm not disappointed, as long there is New Horizons :)
 
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