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Pre Build 13 weapon availability

I

irR4tiOn4L

Landlubber
Storm Modder
I have an 'issue' with the pre build 13 modpack, which i installed recently. Its a great achievement; astounding in many ways, but unfortunately its 'toggles' for some mods are less than satisfactory.

I did not find the handgun ammo mod to my liking (no offense to its author), nor did i like the way weapons would get damaged or the fact they would come in many different conditions. So i switched those mods off.

However, what i really dont like is that your level no longer affects WHEN a weapon becomes available, unlike stock POTC, and the prices have been altered. I dont know if its the weaponsmod, the ammo mod, or the weapons damage mod, but i much preferred the stock POTC system (even though its unrealistic) because good weapons were rare and it gave you something to look forward to. Right now, even with those three mods switched off, im stuck with having everything available right away.

Please, how can i change this? I want better blades to begin appearing as i progress, not all right away, yet i cannot identify what mod made the change.

I do like the newer grenades, armor and muskets, but i dont want to deal with blades of various quality, ammo, or begin to see these items untill much later in the game

Any help greatly appreciated.



I have another, very small, issue. In the great new menu for this build, you can select whether you want the 'new' or the 'old' interface. Well, i much prefer the 'new' interface, but i dont like its main background picture! For the background image i much prefer the one from the 'old' interface (the pirate woman with the twinkling eye). The background for the 'new' interface is boring in comparison.

Any way to change that? Its a minor issue. Perhaps introduce a better 'new' background, with more attitude?




Thats about it. Its altogether a brilliant modpack, well done! Unfortunately, it can get bogged down in detail, and with features such as ammo, gunpowder, food and drink requirements and new weapons, you can toggle them off, but unfortunately the toggle is either not a complete toggle, or the entire balance is then skewed (cargo space and economy wise).

Those mods are borderline. They really are begining to overcomplicate. Especially the handgun ammo (ship gunpowder i find alright), damaged swords and guns and food and drink requirements for crew. I know some LOVE them, but they overcomplicate the gameplay so much, playing without them should really be FULLY supported, not partially.

Thanks for this great mod, and for the time youve divested in reading this overly long post!


PS
There is one other thing - i find it a good example of overcomplication when 'hiring' crew takes you till nightfall. Especially with the bug that does this even if you dont hire any. What does this 'feature' add? In my opinion, nothing, it just forces you to visit stores/shipyards/taverns in a particular order.

A delay for unloading goods/repairs, i can understand, and even accept. But a delay for gathering crew is just nitpicking and superflous. Especially as you doing something else in that time is not simulated. If it doesnt add anything, take it away.

The worst thing is that you CANT toggle these types of delays. On the other hand, they are not a major problem either. Neverthless, i just cant help but wonder WHY the delay is there at all.
 
Well I can help you with 2 of your issues
to change the availability of swords go to your pirates of the caribbean Directory and go to PROGRAM\ITEMS\ and open initItems.c with a text editor (notepad'll do)

next search for <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->// ccc special weapon assembly kit --><!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
the objects under here can (I think) have the <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->    itm.minlevel = X;<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> added to them (where x is the level you want to get CCC's special weapons at. when you finish the special weapons search for <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->//WEAPONS<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> and set the minimum level on those (they already have the variable) when you get to a table ignore it (its for the weapon-mod) and scroll down to vassal's weapons you can set it for those, if you keep going you can set it for armour and spy glasses too

for the menu pictures go to RESOURCE\Textures\INTERFACES\BACKGROUND and rename build2.tga.tx to something like build2old.tga.tx and copy build1.tga.tx and rename this copied file to build2.tga.tx

hope that helps (I think thats all right)
 
Thanks for the quick reply! Very useful insight into where this stuff is.

Unfortunately, most of those items already HAVE level requirements? Like Solingen rapier has level 12? Yet i was seeing them all in a new game with weaponsmod, ammo mod and weapons damage mod disabled!

So something isnt right there.

Also, i dont know the original game's values. Isnt there some way to just get the stock POTC values back in?

If i have to, i will go through and redefine the minlevels, but a lot of items should already have them, so im wondering whats going on there.
 
On the question of old/new interface backgrounds, a more elegant solution ive found is to swap the mainmenu.ini from \RESOURCE\INI\INTERFACES with the mainmenu.ini from \RESOURCE\INI\NEW_INTERFACES.

Its not perfect, as the main buttons will be in the old style, not the newer style, but this is only on the main menu itself; as soon as you enter another menu, everything is fine.

In any case that small graphical misfit is better than simply renaming the background images; that would lead to the heading stretching over the woman's face.

Its a minor issue, sure, but it also sets the 'vibe' or 'feel' of the game. I obviously considered it important enough to swap the ugly 'new' interface background with the much better 'old' interface background.


Now i just have to isolate the exact lines of code in each mainmenu.ini that causes the change, and get the buttons themselves to match their respective styles.
 
<!--quoteo(post=154913:date=Jul 22 2006, 05:49 AM:name=irR4tiOn4L)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(irR4tiOn4L @ Jul 22 2006, 05:49 AM) [snapback]154913[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
A delay for unloading goods/repairs, i can understand, and even accept. But a delay for gathering crew is just nitpicking and superflous. Especially as you doing something else in that time is not simulated. If it doesnt add anything, take it away.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just wanted to let you know that you aren't the only person who feels that way about the mods. And that's *all* the mods you mentioned, not just the ones in the part I quoted above.

The delay in loading/unloading goods is a little... excessive. Your crew can easily starve while trying to unload a full hold of goods, even if you have a month worth of rations on board. IncredibleHat is working on fixing this part.

I've never heard an explanation of why we have to wait until nightfall when hiring crew. I'd just as soon take that code out if there's no one who knows why it's in there. And you really don't ever have to hire crew at a tavern, as repairing your ship auto-hires crew to fill your crew roster. Hiring crew in a tavern is enough of a pain that I never do it now. And that gawdawful sound file they played... I killed that one as soon as I could.

Pieter has mentioned that the minlevel is not used. I've found that blades' cost or rarity is really all that's needed to keep your character in lesser blades at the beginning of the game. Others have complained about seeing these high level blades at the beginning, when it's impossible for your character to buy them. My feeling is, it's nice for a new player to see what they will be able to buy when they get enough money. Gives 'em something to aspire to.

Hook
 
<!--quoteo(post=154928:date=Jul 22 2006, 04:05 PM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Jul 22 2006, 04:05 PM) [snapback]154928[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Pieter has mentioned that the minlevel is not used.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Would someone kindly tell me what I need to to to reimplement Minlevel
 
Hook said:
irR4tiOn4L said:
...The delay in loading/unloading goods is a little... excessive. Your crew can easily starve while trying to unload a full hold of goods, even if you have a month worth of rations on board. IncredibleHat is working on fixing this part.
Hook
Click to expand...
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hi.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":gday" border="0" alt="hi.gif" /> irR4tiOn4L and Hook
One reason why this is confusing is because it is not obvious to anyone, including me, just where much of this stuff can be adjusted.

After Build 12, the BuildSettings.h file was getting so large with all the new mods, toggles and settings, that some of it was broken off and made into a new file ... "InternalSettings.h"

A proper updated Read.me flie might help people find the features that can be changed, easily enough, once they are found <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />

Anyway, in "InternalSettings.h" there is the setting
#define TIME_MOVEGOOD 30 // type=int, time in minutes for 1 crewman to move 1 unit of a good. Also, no matter the crew, this * goods qty /10 is added in minutes.

If you change the 30 to 15, it almost cuts the loading/unloading goods in half.
Change it to 1 and your crew work like "Flash".
Click to expand...
 
<!--quoteo(post=154948:date=Jul 22 2006, 12:29 PM:name=fudge dragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fudge dragon @ Jul 22 2006, 12:29 PM) [snapback]154948[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
<!--quoteo(post=154928:date=Jul 22 2006, 04:05 PM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Jul 22 2006, 04:05 PM) [snapback]154928[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Pieter has mentioned that the minlevel is not used.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Would someone kindly tell me what I need to to to reimplement Minlevel
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is how I've always understood it and I may be wrong.
You could use any weapon if you had it except 2 & 4 shot pistols that require special ability.

Finding a specific weapon was determined mostly by rarity of the weapon and to a lesser extent, by players luck.

The min level determined if you were allowed to buy items form merchants.
I think it's the merchants code that probably has the problem of not applying min level.
I thought that was being worked on to fix it.
 
Ugh... where to begin... this will be a long post. I wont quote, as we all pretty much know whats being talked about here.


Time to move goods in the store when purchased:
This was SERIOUSLY busted out the rear end hole. I have completely rewritten it now, and the update is up on the FTP at the moment for anyone who wishes to try it. Basically, each good you traded, it would add time. And it used 'units' to calculate. Imagine buying 500 weight of gunpowder (thats 150,000 units). I watched the "YEAR" go buy when my crew loaded that one purchase. Using the Sell-All, and Auto-Buy buttons would also add sometimes weeks of time.

I have fixed this. Now, when you LEAVE the trade interface for a ship (when you are done dealing with the merchant about what you want to load/unload), it then calculates how much goods are ACTUALLY going to be transfered from ship-shore, and only adds the proper time based on that (you know, realistically).

The time is further reduced by larger crews, and better leadership skill.

And, to top it off, it has a cap now of 7 days. I read some books, and even unloading the largest merchant ships in the day, never took longer than a flippen week to completely clear a full hold.


Time for tavern hires:
I just came across that one myself the other day and was like "wtf?". What a total waste. It's bad enough you have to wait till morning to HIRE them, but then you waste a whole nother day waiting for them to "show up" ? Pfft... I'll be searching out and destroying that code. I'll put a toggle on it "STUPID_CREWHIRE_TIMEWASTING_MOD".


"Minlevel":
This was supposed to be used to determine when a merchant would SHOW you weapons for sale. Even though you can use those weapons at level one, it is of no fun to sell those weapons to a level one character. It is far more adventurous and enjoyable to search out those weapons by luck, or level up your character so you get the chance to buy them at a store yourself.

Someone decided to make weapon availability based off the "level of the merchant" instead! Not the player. SO, a high level merchant, will have AND sell extremely high level items to a level 1 player. Grrrrrrrrr.

It's on my list to find and fix. There is actually a toggle in IS.h (IT_USE_MINLEVEL) to "not show/sell high level items to low level players", but somehow at some point it either never got put in, or got removed.


Turning off the ammo/weapon/break mods:
This really doesn't affect economy. It simply removes that from the game. When you do an auto-equip, it wont bother with those ammomod things. When you talk to a trader, you wont see ammo, or millions of types of the same blade. When you fight, your blade wont break (neither with the enemies).

Keep in mind, the toggles were never put in by the original modders. They simply believe that 'everyone' will enjoy what they put in. Those who put the toggles in, have to decipher the mod, and bypass it, and its ill effects for those who wish to play a game without the mod active.

Some toggles are lacking yes. But if people notice something missed, and report it, it gets fixed. However the ammo mod, weapons breakage, gun powder, and weapons mods are all real well solid, because a lot of us have those off, and we have caught pretty much all cases to make this work cleanly.


Oh, and WELCOME ABOARD! Glad to see new faces around here. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />
 
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":bow" border="0" alt="bow.gif" /> @ Hat

'nuff said. Keep up the good work matey <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/me.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":onya" border="0" alt="me.gif" />
 
<!--quoteo(post=154971:date=Jul 22 2006, 03:11 PM:name=fudge dragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fudge dragon @ Jul 22 2006, 03:11 PM) [snapback]154971[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
How does rarity work then? as they are always in the decimals but the items are still common
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure how common things are now with all the recent changes to the build.

In B12, "itm.rare" ranged from .9 very common to .05 fairly rare, for swords.

I suppose you could set those even lower .01 or even .001 till you found the value you prefer.
 
Rarity is still in use. Although, it appears not as much when filling a merchants store inventory. It may have been overlooked like with the bit about not showing high level items to low level characters.

It may just very well be a mod unfinished. The original modder, has moved on, and that means someone will need to figure out whats missing, and put the pieces back in.

I'm just waiting for someone to pop in here with the ever stupid "well, just dont buy the item then!" ... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />
 
Hook, on the issue of blades, i wouldnt be so concerned if their cost prevented me from using them. I always felt the stock POTC way was better, as you didnt KNOW what would appear next, and these are supposed to be rare after all! I certainly liked progressively improving my equipment as i progressed.

But thats not the way it works for me now. I just started the game, did a few trade runs, and then captured two pirates who surrendered to a fort. I made in excess of 90 000, and bought an Altwood F100 with gold armor with PLENTY of change to spare.

Where do you go from there? I mean your level 3 or 4 and youve got one of the best blades in the game, as well as the best armor. All you have to look forward to now is a better ship - and they arent all that hard to get.

I much preffered progressively unlocking these blades; money never restricts what i can use well enough. Plus, it ruins the feel of rarity and something to look forward to when each shop has several F100s in different quality levels - this was supposed to be just 1 sword. Not that stock POTC stuck to that rule either!




Petros; Your right. I never knew of 'internalSettings.h'. Thanks for that!



IncredibleHat, thanks for the comprehensive reply! Your right of course, thos mods you mentioned are pretty slick and clean when toggled. The gunpowder one apparently takes up a few barrels in the boarding screen, but thats about it.

Really, i would like to use the weapons mod, and the blacksmiths, if only the items would have minlevels. As it is, nothing has them. I really hope that gets fixed soon.

At least now i know this was not decided on, but accidental. Its hard to coordinate such a large work; i dont mean to be critical.


Oh and thanks for welcoming me, but im a bit of an old hat here actually - I joined in early 2004. I just havent played POTC for like two years. Last build i tried was 9 i think. Its still the most realistic sailing game out there, especially with this brilliant build. It ties with the new Sid Meiers Pirates! for the most fun pirate game. This build is quite the achievement.

Cheers!


PS
IncredibleHat, is the update your refferring to the 19 July one? I have that one installed myself.
 
<!--quoteo(post=155010:date=Jul 22 2006, 09:19 PM:name=irR4tiOn4L)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(irR4tiOn4L @ Jul 22 2006, 09:19 PM) [snapback]155010[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Hook, on the issue of blades, i wouldnt be so concerned if their cost prevented me from using them. I always felt the stock POTC way was better, as you didnt KNOW what would appear next, and these are supposed to be rare after all! I certainly liked progressively improving my equipment as i progressed.

But thats not the way it works for me now. I just started the game, did a few trade runs, and then captured two pirates who surrendered to a fort. I made in excess of 90 000, and bought an Altwood F100 with gold armor with PLENTY of change to spare.

Where do you go from there? I mean your level 3 or 4 and youve got one of the best blades in the game, as well as the best armor. All you have to look forward to now is a better ship - and they arent all that hard to get.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once you've learned how to play the game and make boatloads of money, then the swords are easy to get. But for a beginning player, who hasn't learned all this yet, the cost of the swords is pretty prohibitive.

I'm currently playing most of my serious characters (not for fun or for testing) at Adventurer difficulty level. Rank is easy to get. Board a couple of large ships and you make incredible amounts of experience points killing enemies with over 800 hit points. If you can stay alive, that is. That's where the Toughness perk comes in. As a side note, I actually managed to get my very high level character killed with a Solingen Rapier, Gold Armor and the Toughness perk recently during a particularly nasty boarding.

You also get some major experience doing trade missions for the storekeepers. If you start playing for experience you'll level up quickly enough that the minlevels of the blades isn't any kind of hinderance any more than money.

As for better ships, there isn't really anything better than a sloop. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> I used to use a schooner, and I've tried a gaff-rigged xebec, but the sloop is pretty much good to take on anything if you intend to do a lot of boardings. For taking on forts, I prefer the 74 gun SOL, and you just don't see a lot of those.

As for the question about where do you go from there, well, there are a couple of frigates and a battleship guarding Oxbay. Capturing those three ships will net you somewhere north of 10 million. And it will probably level you up a few times in the process.

Hook
 
I really agree with Petros, we really need a better readme. If he hadn't mentioned the internalSettings in another thread I never would have known it was there. I thought many of the toggles were just plain removed from the game.

As has been discussed in another thread some of the toggles don't fully work though. If you toggle off food you have to adjust the moral settings in the internal settings file. There really isn't arcade sailing anymore. You will pick up broken blades even if you have that mod off unless you also have the whole blade grades off too. This isn't a complaint, it's a reminder.

I would also like to add that the current upgrade notes should be included in the dowload itself and not just listed on the site. I'm sure that I can't be the only one that didn't see that right away.

I'm really glad somebody is working on the time scale thing. It really didn't make sense to be since the only time it bogged me down was in port. I never noticed that it took days to unload all this stuff to smugglers.

I read in the update that there will now be a skill level requirement (commerce) in order to buy/sell in enemy ports. However I didn't see a toggle for it any place. I really don't think I understand how this is suppose to effect game play since we are still using the default relationships from the stock game anyhow. This I know I would prefer off till more is done with it.
 
Well, hook hints on the extreme 'inflation' that has occurred in the build mods.

As it stands, it is too easy to gain insane amounts of money, and experience. Even the novice player can easily stumble across a million dollar reward, or pick up a slew of experience points.

You can kill a merchant, lose a rep point, turn around and sell all the loot you got from the dead body, and buy a class 2 corvette ! LOL! All during the tutorial!

I recall when the game was better balanced... you had to scrape together gold pieces just to hire enough crew, or spelunk in the dungeons to find more loot to sell so you could get this new sword that a merchant now had (or even find a better one in the dungeon itself... making going into the dungeon actually WORTH doing). Then, barely making a new level because you didn't get experience just for opening a door, or tipping your hat at some barmaide.

It made the game last longer.

"but there is so much more to do now in the build mod!" ... is there really? Honestly, I don't see it. We have a bunch of broken and unfinished islands that mostly lead to random errors, or stop points in the game. We have more boats... so what? That only makes fights a bit more interesting at sea. There really isnt a whole heck of a lot of quests. Maybe a handful worth discovering and doing.

You can go up in level so quickly, and make so much money quickly too, that within a days playing, you are basically bored and start a whole new game.

I think some serious number fixes need to be made... prices are inflated, including payoffs. And the loot, sheesh... I carry so much stuff out of one level of a dungeon, to pay for a whole new officer AND ship for them! Before I even left Oxbay for the first time, I had three ships, 5 officers, and a decent pile of money in my pocket! LOL! ...
 
Hmm, to balance this would not be easy. This is a game, it is supposed to be enjoyable. A real pirates life was not that enjoyable at all. Most importantly, it was much shorter than we have in the game. Most pirates would complete some 10 successful raids on ships or colonies, before meeting their end at the hands of the military or their colleagues. But we want to play a fairy-tale pirate, who lived a long prosperous life. How to tie this up with the reality of 17th century piracy, I have no idea.

Pirates plunder was usually sugar or grain or rum. Something cheap and bulky. And of course they did not have a chance to sell it to a reputable merchant at a good market price. They would offload it to some lowlife merchants in small towns, for a fraction of the market price. Sabbatini (I'm not saying he was completely realistic in his books, but he made an attemt at it) once mentions an unlucky pirate who captured a shipload of cocoa and had great troubles selling it - noone needed the darn thing and he ended up hauling that cocoa all over the Caribbean for months on end. Same thing goes about captured ships.

Boarding parties were a very risky business, and pirates tried to avoid this kind of action if possible. If the opponents crew was about the same size as theirs, they would think twice befor the abordage. If there were military on the ship, they would never have the courage to board at all.

The morale on a pirates ship never reached the level of military-trained navies. Though the usual income of a navy sailor was much smaller than a pirates, the discipline was much more harsh and punishments more severe.

And those navies were out there to get them, too. Navy patrols were all around and never passed up a chance of persuing a pirate ship and either sinking it or persuading it to surrender or boarding it, after which it was the gallows.
------------------------------------------

So there. So far i can suggest a few things to make our life harder:

Precious cargoes are few and far between. Most of the time you'll find ships loaded with cheap trash. And then you'll have a hell of a time trying to sell it. And then when you do find whom to sell it to, you'll have to sell it for no more than half its market price. And of course no more gems in chests on decks. Maybe one in the captains cabin, if you are lucky and if the ship owner was rich enough.

You can't sell ships for more than 1/10th of their market value.

Ships crewed by the military always have good morale and boarding those is hard as hell. More often than not you'd need three times the sezi of the enemy crew, to stand some chance of success. After boarding such a ship, you will plunder a small ammount of money (regiments coffer), some weapons/ammo and that would be it. After that, the navy of that country will actively hunt you down.
--------------------------------------------

I still think this is not enough to make the game challenging, but this is all I could come up with for today <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/poet.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":hmm" border="0" alt="poet.gif" />
 
The game shouldn't be that difficult to balance. We could make more use of the difficulty level when setting prices for the goods, or the amount of money a merchant had for buying your loot, or the shipyard had for buying ships you'd captured.

I've already run across situations where I tried to sell off all the extra weapons that used to accumulate after several boardings and the merchants ran out of money before I ran out of stuff to sell. (I've fixed that weapons locker bug, btw.)

The only problem would be that sailing all over the Caribbean trying to find a shipyard with enough spare cash to buy your latest prize ship would be almost as much fun as visiting every merchant in town looking for ammo for your guns.

Keep in mind that any balancing that's done should result in a game that's challenging and fun to play, not a pain in the butt.

And keep in mind that even in the stock game, Virgile Boon, captain of the Oiseau, the barque that was carrying munitions for the French invasion of Redmond, carried 1,000,000. While you can get this from him in the modded version of the game, I don't know if there was a way to get it in the stock game.

Hook
 
Setting up the merchants with less money than they have now is a very good idea. For shipyards... it would be nice to implement it in a bit more complicated way:

You come to a shipyard and try arranging a ship sale. If it's a small scooner, there shouldn't be much of a problem. If it is something serious (like a spanish galleon for example), the shipyard will probably just refuse to buy it: "Yeah right. And what do I tell the spaniards when they come to inquire just where the heck I got THAT from?" Alternatively, they are willing to buy the ship, but at a throw-away price. Alternatively, they'd be something like "This is a big thing. If you moor it here for say a month, I'll try to come up with some cash and will buy it off you", after which you beach the ship in question and get your money much later. That and also you won't be able to sell many ships to the same shipyard too often.

Just brainstorming here. I agree our golden goal is balancing playability and realism.
 
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