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Discussion Releasing Future Modpack Versions

Pieter Boelen

Navigation Officer
Administrator
Storm Modder
Hearts of Oak Donator
Build 14 Beta 4.0 has just been publicly released, after a long and rocky development process.
Of course development has immediately continued and already we've got some nice stuff being prepared for Beta 4.1!

Now the big question is: How are we going to handle future releases?
There are a fair few things to consider here and I'd welcome your feedback!

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1. Frequency of Internal Releases

For starters, @Hylie Pistof has mentioned several times that during Beta 4 development, new updates were posted TOO OFTEN.
What happened is that myself and @Levis tried to sort out issues and make the fixes available as quickly as we could.
This has the advantage that everything is available to everyone who wants it.
But it has a disadvantage as well, which is that it becomes quite hard for players and testers to remain up-to-date.
Stuff changes all the time, so people may lose track of what is new. Plus often a "new game" is required, which also doesn't help.

So knowing how we have done this the past 1.5 year, what do you think about it?
What was good? What could have been done better? How would you like to see it?

If updates less frequently would be better, then that could save a lot of development time!

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2. Deciding the Content to be Added

The release of Beta 4.0 has been prone to MASSIVE delays. It was originally meant to come out shortly after the Summer 2015 holidays.
That became Christmas 2015 and that turned into Easter 2016 when it finally happened.

Main reason for this is that rather huge changes were added to the intermediate updates that weren't stable enough.
Unfortunately we did not know this at the time and we only found out when bugs started showing up.
This was the begin of a very long-winded process that took well over half a year and still hasn't 100% been completed.

But by the time we started to think it was taking stupidly long,
the changes had become so huge that reverting back to an earlier state was also no longer feasible.
In other words: Not the best situation.

This has made it clear that some sort of quality control is required BEFORE stuff is added to the main mod.
Normally this is me and I decide it by looking critically at all the code changes.
But for hugely complicated changes, such as the ones we have recently seen,
I cannot possibly foresee the impact of every line of changed code in advance.

This is not a reliable way of handling this. So how ARE we going to handle it?
And who will decide what goes in or not? And how is that to be decided?

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3. Frequency of Public Releases

Depending on how things go with development, we have had a release within 6 months of the last.
Or, as was the case with Beta 4.0, it took a year and a half.

Normally it is me who decides when it is good to go.
And I have a tendency to want all concerning issues to be sorted before the release.
But being rather a perfectionist, it could very well be that I am too critical, causing extra delays.

On the other hand, we don't want the public releases too frequently either.
Refer to point #1 above.

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4. Responsibility of Making the Releases

Reading between the lines of the above texts, you may notice that a lot of what does and doesn't happen and how everything is handled relies on me.

I unofficially took over from the great Nathan Kell around the time that Build 13 was released.
At the time I knew virtually nothing of programming nor software development as I was 17 years old.
And it has stayed like that for more than 10 years now.

A lot has happened since then and my life has taken more than a few twists and turns.
But no matter what, I have stuck around here to continue nudging, pushing and pulling things along.

Relying on merely one single person is not a very healthy situation though.
If for whatever reason I won't be around anymore to support this community,
it would be good if there were somebody else to step in and continue.

Because we have just released the biggest new update in years, this is a perfect time for other people to become involved as well.
I would be very happy to show you all the tricks of the trade.
And if someone else could join in the business of compiling and releasing updates, then eventually I may be able to start focusing on other things.

This process is always quite straightforward and I dare say many people here are more than able to do this as well as I do.
I am thinking, for example, of @Grey Roger, @pedrwyth and @Jack Rackham.

So do you guys agree with me that this would be a good idea?
And if so, who would be up for the challenge?

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As has always been the case, I really want the progress here to continue.
As long as there are still people who have fun doing this and playing with the results, New Horizons should have a bright future! :cheers
 
A public release every 6 months sounds good to me. If something isn't ready in 6 months then don't delay the release, but don't put it into the release. Feedback suggests that some thought New Horizons had been abandoned because of the huge delay.
 
If updates less frequently would be better, then that could save a lot of development time!
Yes, I had problems keeping up and keeping track of my own changes as well. I would prefer not so often.
Something like if all the zip updates should have been skipped. There was so much work merging into new version.

I really understand if you need to do something else Pieter after all this years. Personally I cannot spend more time on POTC than I already do because it's most of my spare time and a lot of time at work as well. :unsure
 
For me the problem with the build 14 4 development process was twofold. Firstly the move away from 3.4 meant that quite quickly fixes that should have been available to that public base were subsumed into what was a different animal so the answer became "we have fixed it in the new version if you want to try that" with no alternative even when the new version was pretty much broken. Part of this arose from the second the radical nature of the changes meant that they were not contained in a neat mod that could be turned on or off but permeated the whole build.

I think there are basically there are three types of change - fixes to the existing, new mods or storylines that can be added (or not) - via a toggle, (sorry PB) without impact elsewhere and thirdly structural changes which are pretty much one way deals. A number of the feature request/planned features are likely to be of this latter type and may give rise to a similar situation as beta 4 has gone through.

Ideally I think there should always be at least three conceptual versions in existence, the published version (which can have a supplementary thread of fixes to known problems, the beta WIP version which is the published version plus fixes plus "proven" content (effectively the next published build in waiting) and an "experimental" build of work under test. The "experimental" build may need to have subsets containing different substantive structural changes to avoid the situation where something is now broken but it is not at all clear by what, alternatively each major structural change must be a single change but be given long enough to prove stability before the next is brought in. reversible mod style changes can go straight into the WIP thread.

You thus have published version players who if they report a fault will either get a "we will look into it" or "we know and have fixed it (here is the fix, but you may like to try our new WIP version where the fix is applied and some new content but new game required". This would lead them to be a tester type 2 who is playing the game but in WIP version (which will get altered with new fixes and content - but which they are simply encouraged to add in when next they start again). Finally we have the hardy souls who know the game and may break off their normal playing of WIP to specifically test something in the "experimantal" with a view to breaking it or being critical. Modders adding content are, of course, expected to test their own work too.

None of this decides how often a public release nor when content is fit for purpose and allowed into the WIP but separating it into three allows a longer lead time and less likelihood of really game breaking stuff getting into the WIP to gum up the process.

However I'm afraid my current circumstances do not allow me to stick my head above the parapet for much, if any, of the requisite effort for compiling etc (and it wouldn't be likely to provide a future proof backup anyway).
 
Feedback suggests that some thought New Horizons had been abandoned because of the huge delay.
That did almost happen. In the end, it AGAIN fell to me to fix and finish the work started by somebody else.
After ten years of that, I am sorry to say that my continued willingness to do that has dwindled to near-nothingness.

If something isn't ready in 6 months then don't delay the release, but don't put it into the release.
Does sound nice. To accomplish that, we would need to do what @pedrwyth suggests and have multiple modpack versions in development at the same time.
That could definitely work out for the better. It would also be more more work.
Not necessarily difficult and hard work, but definitely more work.

That does make it yet more crucial that there is more than 1 person involved in making it happen.
Otherwise it would just mean double the work for me. Which is exactly the opposite of what I need.
If there is 1 person posting the "completely experimental stuff" and somebody else creating the "stable(ish) development version" from that, it would be a huge step in the right direction.


If I am indeed to continue, then one thing I will probably have to do is to simply REFUSE
to add new content to the versions I post that I don't know with 90% certainty are OK.


And when should to add newly posted content together? For the past 1.5 years, I have been doing that pretty much immediately.
This is specifically to catch "conflicted changes" straight away.
If I would add new stuff only every once in a while, then there is a risk of people's work becoming incompatible.


The one thing it comes down to is that this whole business CANNOT stand or fall with only me. That is just not acceptable.
It isn't good for the community and it isn't good for me.
There need to be more people actively involved on the management side.
That really needs to start.
 
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I totally agree with all of you especially you Pieter Boelen as a fan and as someone who works on mods for games i understand what are all of your points and the responsibilities that are on your shoulders i can suggest only one thing that worked for me till today i have no problems with it iss make a team well teams i myself before starting to start moding had no experience and no idea what i was doing i was doing pretty much useless things without me knowing it asked some experienced people and they all said the same one thing to me you fu** up you was rushing your self so i took in advice of some of them created a DevTeam called it YOUNEAN DEVTEAM and made each 2 persons on one job so if one is dead (meant offline for a while)other can replace him as for your case i suggest to do the same create a small group the Piratesahoy is big and assign jobs for each 2 of them from publishing to helping people to u know your stuff and that should help u relax a little bit though we will miss u being always active T....T but that's okay for me
 
I definitely do want to see a team effort. It does happen on some feature development occasionally, which are often the most fun times I have had here.
But a more formal team would be extremely valuable and the requirement for that is simple: People willing to be involved.

At the moment, there are several jobs related to New Horizons:
- Forum management, including technical support
- Keeping track of and fixing bugs
- Discussing and deciding on a "road map" for future development
- Making these planned features a reality
- Creating new content based on personal wishes
- Combining the work from various people and making it available
- Testing that work and providing feedback
- Creating a public release version whenever that is deemed appropriate
- Posting that public release version
- Promotion to generate interest in the work being done

At the moment I am heavily involved (and often in charge/the only person doing it) for most of those.
This is too much for a single person, but I still juggle them all to the best of my abilities.
But anything that I don't need to do means I can focus more on those other things that also need doing.

Several of the points listed there are relatively simple and can easily be done by various different people.
Modpack compilation is relatively straightforward, which is why I am suggesting that as a good place for someone else to join in.
And in theory, ANYONE can do promotion, even if that does take a bit of thought to do well.

There is a saying in the Netherlands: "Shared weight makes light weight."
And that really is true.
 
There is a saying in the Netherlands: "Shared weight makes light weight."
And that really is true.
well that is damn true indeed and for what u said I would love to do one of those but I can't since I'm in period of tests and exams that will last for a month and half so I won't be available all time in that period but having such thing will make the community more alive all in fb moddb maybe other sites which will do a lot of promoting and gaining a lot of support that would make and bring this community to its rightful place again
 
just a question do this site have tweet or doesn't it have only YouTube fb thanks having someone to update each and every social medias will have a great impact here just saying hahaha!!!!
 
just a question do this site have tweet or doesn't it have only YouTube fb thanks having someone to update each and every social medias will have a great impact here just saying hahaha!!!!
Check the signature below every post of mine.... :rolleyes:
 
That does make it yet more crucial that there is more than 1 person involved in making it happen.
Otherwise it would just mean double the work for me. Which is exactly the opposite of what I need.
If there is 1 person posting the "completely experimental stuff" and somebody else creating the "stable(ish) development version" from that, it would be a huge step in the right direction.
This idea of having two development branches is essentially what I was going to suggest, and having one person in charge of no more than one of these two branches sounds sensible to me.

A "stable" branch might only involve bug fixes and new content that is mainly cosmetic, such as new ships or textures, along with finished quest content.
Meanwhile, an "experimental" branch would include new features entirely which impact gameplay in some way, or new WIP quest content that isn't quite ready for release.

The way things have been over the past few months, I wouldn't be surprised if you opted to head the stable branch and leave the experimental stuff to someone else, and I would definitely support that decision. That way, you could take things a little easier and not have to worry about new features breaking the game (in theory). It also means that new features will only be developed if someone else steps in to make them, but if nobody does, then at least development isn't halted or impacted on the stable branch.

In addition, this could finally give you an excuse to (eventually) drop the "Beta" label from the stable branch, and keep it only for the experimental releases. ;)
 
The main things I'm trying to accomplish are to change my situation:
- So I can focus on non-PotC stuff when needed, while knowing you guys are still OK here.
- Shift priorities so I can be in a more advisory/supporting role.
- In the end, free myself up so that when I do have time for PotC, I can make these new features happen that we've been planning.
- Most importantly, share some of the responsibility to reduce the pressure so this remains first and foremost FUN! :woot
 
It might be worth mentioning that being involved in the management side of modding can be extremely interesting and you can learn a lot from it.
When I started at age 17, I had no clue what I was doing.
I have learned so much here that has served me very well on my real life job this past year.

I never envisioned having anything to do with professional software development, but I actually do now.
And I get to share the tricks that I learned here with the actual developers.
Yes, you read that right! That experience is going FROM PiratesAhoy! TO the actual software developers.

So for anyone with an affinity for thinking logically, there is quite an opportunity here to learn useful skills.
It may get you paid several years from now!
 
It might be worth mentioning that being involved in the management side of modding can be extremely interesting and you can learn a lot from it.
When I started at age 17, I had no clue what I was doing.
I have learned so much here that has served me very well on my real life job this past year
i know that for sure well what i do might be different a little bit or entirely from POTC but its always the same you can't learn from nothing ....am i not right ?? maybe what I'm thinking Pieter Boelen is make an article recruiting or a thread with a capturing title that everyone will want to check out not only here maybe fb ...i don't know....that would get people where u want them
and i personally i really like the idea of you and Armada that would help greatly !!!!
 
In the meantime, there are plenty of people on the forum who want to see a lot of changes made; some small, some big.
On the other hand, nobody has mentioned being willing to support the necessary modpack management.

In other words: There is a lot of desire to see things done, but not that crucial willingness to step up and do the things that need doing.
People seem to be quite happy to do their own stuff and leave the rest to me.

And while I myself do have the wish to do a great lot, I am left having to do SO MANY separate things that it becomes quite insane.
This is not a workable situation. It is also not reasonable.
 
To paraphrase Darth Vader: I find the lack of support here disturbing.

Am I to understand that nobody here is willing to take even the slightest responsibility for the future of our modding work?
Then that begs the question: Why on Earth should I?

I must admit this is discouraging in the extreme. And as a consequence, you may expect me to take a LOT less responsibility as well.
With a bit of luck, I will occasionally do something. When I feel like it. But don't count on all that much.

I said it before and I'll say it again: This is not OK.
 
Not wanting to put my foot in anything, as I really didn't see this thread until you linked the promo thread to it, I feel I should respond.

For myself, I'd genuinly love to help out with the more necessary bug fixing/coding duties. However, I don't see myself learning coding of any sort in the near future (believe me when i say I have tried); I also know I've been somewhat flaky on the one project I have had on POTC, mostly due to trying to wrap my head around things which 5 months ago I'd not even have attempted. The struggle I've had with these comparatively straightforward tasks (ie breaking the whole game editing ships_init :modding) doesn't fill me with encouragement (that and having recently started a new career myself, I should probably focus on learning that stuff first :/), therefore I think it's safe to say you can write me off from many of the roles you mention above ...it's not for a lack of wanting to, but more a realistic lack of time and patience to learn this stuff from scratch, which is what it'd be for me. Sorry but I'd rather be honest. :sparrow

However, I have no excuse when it comes to promo because as you (and everyone else here for that matter) know, one thing I can do is write; and a lot at that :rolleyes:. I don't know everything about the new releases as I've still only put in 20 hours or so to 14 Beta and most of that involves just sinking ships, so if there's any kind of feature list of what you need included in the article, I'd be happy to write something based from that. I also love the Guide with the example campaign which is on moddb, but notice it's unfinished? I may be able to help there too provided @Thagarr 's WIP manual isn't intended as a replacement for that? Beyond this, I'm happy taking on any forum or social media responsibilities; I'm no web developer but could probably help in some capacity here, as I am able to be online quite often.

Sorry if this is a bit of a cop-out as I realize my use is extremely limited, but I feel bad all the above is falling to you, @Pieter Boelen . At the same time, I realize unfair delegation is just the nature of voluntary work at times...:shrug I ended up doing the roles of about 30 people on the last voluntary project I worked on (hence it being my last...).

NB: I also like Armada's idea of having the two branches, personally that seems a good way to go. Just my humble opinion though :yes
 
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I like the two branches idea as well.
As long as I don't need to maintain both.

It would be pretty great to have things split up like that.
Then I can also explain to that other person how I do things, so that even when I'm not around, somebody here still knows.

Would be so much better.


Anyway, thanks for the response, @Robert Nutter.
I know not everyone is a coding expert and that is OK.
I've been saying quite a lot lately that people shouldn't need to do too much at the same time. :doff
 
There is a saying in the Netherlands: "Shared weight makes light weight."
And that really is true.

This is really too true, and a quote I plan on borrowing.

- Forum management, including technical support
- Keeping track of and fixing bugs
- Discussing and deciding on a "road map" for future development
- Making these planned features a reality
- Creating new content based on personal wishes
- Combining the work from various people and making it available
- Testing that work and providing feedback
- Creating a public release version whenever that is deemed appropriate
- Posting that public release version
- Promotion to generate interest in the work being done

I can assist a little with the Forum Management including some technical support. Not familiar with this particular forum software, but have a background in Website Design/Development (including PHP/JS/MySQL) as well as other forum software (and really in a nutshell they are all somewhat similar). I don't have a whole lot of free time, and a ton of irons in the fire, but if no one else volunteers to step up I'm here. I can also assist with testing and attempting to break any new work being added, and attempt to help out wherever else you need, time permitting that is.

I am not new to programming in general, though I know very little about the Storm Engine. I have tinkered some with it though, and can probably wrap my head around what I need to with it to assist with compiling and/or some bug fixing. Do we currently have a list located somewhere of known bugs that need fixing that I could take a peek at and start playing around with my local copy to see what I can figure out?

Anyways, thank you for all you and the rest of the team have done so far Pieter.

P.S. Are we using any standard code repository for tracking code changes and what not (ex: Git, Mercurial, SVN)?
 
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