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Rifle stats

Tingyun

Corsair
Storm Modder
I know it is mostly an easter egg or quest weapon, but it would be nice to model the in game rifle's stats off of the kentucky rifle (Long rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and differentiate it more from the musket.

From reading that article, it seems the major differences of the rifle compared to muskets were longer reload time, smaller caliber, lighter ammunition, more accurate. The accuracy advantage is already in the game, so I'd suggest For the other stats to be changed in the following ways:

Max damage reduced from 250 to 200.
Reload time increased from 30 to 50.
Only use 1 pistol bullet rather than 2.

It then gains the advantages and purpose of the kentucky rifle--longer hunting purposes, especially with the smaller ammunition so you can carry alot. While the musket retains its advantage is shorter, closer range engagements.
 
It's the "Longrifle_C" we're talking about as the other two are quest items.
It will get 2 disadvantages (longer reoad time + lower max dmg) and a small advantage (ammo for more shots).
I have no objections except that it maybe not should be renamed Kentucky etc as that one is used from 1700 and our in all periods.

It's an easy fix. Shottype = "pb".
 
The Brown Bess musket had a calibre of .75". The Baker rifle had a calibre of .625". Factor in that the rifle bullet, being a tighter and more airtight fit, would probably have a higher muzzle velocity, and I'd say damage should not be that different between the two.

Longer reload time was certainly a factor, though. Standard rate of fire was two rounds per minute for a rifle and four rounds per minute for a musket. So a rifle should have a reload time of 30 seconds and a musket should have a reload time of 15 seconds. That's for trained infantrymen, though - it may be that sailors were slower, hence the 30 and 50 second reload times quoted above.

Rifles should be superior to muskets. There's a reason why armies switched to using rifles and stopped using muskets. :)
 
Grey Roger,

That makes perrfect sense regarding the caliber, but it depends on what era of rifle we model it after.

The Baker Rifle with the .625 caliber is around 1800, right? So if we model it on that one, then it should still use two bullets (representing larger caliber ammunition), and have equal damage.

The Kentucky Rifle (and the earlier rifles it was based on) appear around 1700. Here is wikipedia on their caliber: "To conserve lead on the frontier, smaller calibers were often preferred, ranging often from about .32 to .45 cal."

Hence my suggestion of less ammunition used but reduced damage.

Both have merit as a guide for the weapon. The in game rifle is a bit too short for a Kentucky Rifle (but we could treat it as an early evolution from the german rifles that the kentucky rifle was based on, without yet having added barrel length).

But I would still favor modeling on the 1700 rifles, both to fit more time periods of the game, and leaving aside realism, because by doing so we differentiate the weapon more from the musket and give more interesting strategic choices in game. :)
 
The low calibre Kentucky rifle was primarily a hunting weapon, so did not need such heavy calibre. You do not need a .625 calibre rifle when hunting a rabbit. You only need it when hunting a human. :D

Anyway, the same article also says:
The longer barrel gave the black powder more time to burn, increasing the muzzle velocity and accuracy.
That echoes what I said earlier - it might fire a smaller bullet but that bullet will still pack plenty of energy.

The same article also mentions that the original German rifles were shorter barrel and heavier calibre. So we already have the 1700 rifles - just not the rabbit-hunting version. ;)
 
The muzzle velocity wouldn't have made up for the small caliber in damage (notice it talks about some modifications to the kentucky rifle made for hunting bigger game, that involved higher caliber). We are only considering a modest decrease in damage here, 150-250 becoming 150-200 (the tighter range reflecting greater consistency).

Yes, the german rifles were higher caliber--as I said I am proposing that "we could treat it as an early evolution from the german rifles that the kentucky rifle was based on, without yet having added the longer barrel." The rifles were very much not standardized in this era, I think we can take inspiration from whatever versions are useful.

Basically, realistically we could have either the higher caliber or lower caliber version of the rifle.

If we go higher caliber, then it is almost exactly the same as a musket, just longer reload time but slightly more accuracy.

If we go lower caliber, you add in the difference in ammunition usage, twice as much ammunition for slightly reduced damage.

So lower caliber means more interesting strategic choices for player by differentiating the weapon choices. Why not go that route when both are historically accurate?
 
The minor changes in damage will be hard to notice. The longer reload time and the change of ammo
will make a more distinct difference from the musket so I think it's good for the game. Which IMHO
always beats historical accuracy.
 
Agreed--especially since historical realism allows for both approaches, we get the best of both worlds by going with the lower caliber interpretation. The slightly reduced damage won't hurt its value much at all.

While we are at it, I'd say we equalize the rifle stats with and without scope, since that never made much sense (and thus allow the rifle to be equally useful for players who prefer to not use the weird scope). Busting the rifle down to 20 accuracy and hurting its damage because the player doesn't like using the scope seems to needlessly penalize realist players.

So like this:

n = InitGun(n,"LongRifle_C", "LongRifle_C_back", "BOP2",11,0.00,99, 1,150.0,200.0, 80, 1, 50, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_medium2.wav","pb", 1, PERIOD_EARLY_EXPLORERS, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC); // JRH: Long Rifle for All Storylines
n = InitGun(n,"LongRifle_CT","LongRifle_CT_back","BOP2",11,0.00,99, 1,150.0,200.0, 80, 1, 50, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_medium2.wav","pb", 1, PERIOD_EARLY_EXPLORERS, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC); // JRH: Long Rifle for All Storylines, with telescope
 
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Another thought. The main users of "LongRifle_C" in this game are probably Sharpe's riflemen in "Hornblower". They ought to be using the .625" Baker rifle. So, can we put the damage back up, please? You could perhaps define a new rifle, maybe "LongRifle_K", to use the Kentucky rifle stats, and limit it to earlier periods so that in "Revolutions" and maybe even "Colonial Powers", the same model is used for "LongRifle_K" with the reduced damage, whereas in "Napoleonic" it's "LongRifle_C" with the full damage.

Accuracy for muskets is 80, so I'd say rifles without telescopes should be 120 and maybe with telescope 160.
 
Accuracy for muskets is 60 in the items file, not 80, unless I am missing something?

n = InitGun(n,"pistolmket", "musket_back", 8, 10, 0.05, 20, 3245,150.0,250.0, 60, 1, 30,

If Sharpes riflemen were using the LongRifle_C before, they were REALLY in trouble. Because it had terrible stats, only the scope version had decent stats.

Here was longrifle_C before my changes:

n = InitGun(n,"LongRifle_C", "LongRifle_C_back", "BOP2",11,0.00,99, 1, 50.0,150.0, 20, 1, 30, "",

I don't think you want them to use that version, they would have had 20 accuracy and 100 less damage! ;)

The Longrifle_C is already linked to the scope in functionality and church quest, so it is the one we want to edit for general purposes.

I think the cleanest thing is to use the changes from my file, and then have Sharpe's riflemen draw from one of the duplicate Quest versions of the rifle:

Pick from any of the below:

n = InitGun(n,"LongRifle_BT","LongRifle_BT_back","BOP2",10,0.00,99,12000,150.0,250.0, 80, 1, 1, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_medium2.wav", "", 1, PERIOD_EARLY_EXPLORERS, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC); // JRH: Custom quest musket for BOP, with telescope
n = InitGun(n,"LongRifle_W", "LongRifle_W_back", "BOP2", 7,0.00,99, 0,150.0,250.0, 80, 1, 30, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_medium2.wav", "pb2", 1, PERIOD_EARLY_EXPLORERS, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC); // JRH: Custom quest musket for WR
n = InitGun(n,"LongRifle_WT","LongRifle_WT_back","BOP2", 8,0.00,99, 0,150.0,250.0, 80, 1, 30, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_medium2.wav", "pb2", 1, PERIOD_EARLY_EXPLORERS, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC); // JRH: Custom quest musket for WR, with telescope

Or define a new rifle there for him.

But you definitatly don't want him to use the 20 accuracy 50-150 damage LongRifle_C from before my edits. That one certainly is not the baker rifle. I would imagine he was already using a different rifle from that anyway, as that one is way underpowered. :)
 
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Indeed, "Longrifle_C" is the one which should be used for general purpose, and the shorter barrel, heavier calibre one would be the version in most use, so that should perhaps be the one. The cleanest thing would therefore be to define a new rifle to be the hunting rifle.

"LongRifle_BT", "LongRifle_W" and "LongRifle_WT" are specific versions for the "Bartolomeu o Portugues" and "Woodes Rogers" stories. It would be unwise to use them for "Hornblower" in case @Bartolomeu o Portugues or @Jack Rackham have their own ideas about changing those rifles for their stories.

You are correct that accuracy 20 is wrong. It should indeed be 120, and then perhaps your Kentucky rifle, with the longer barrel and higher velocity, could be 150. The telescope could boost the Baker rifle to at least 150 so that if you have it, you get the hitting power of the Baker rifle and the accuracy of the Kentucky rifle.
 
Grey Roger: I don't see why there is a philosophical issue of which version gets the LongRifle_C ;)

LongRifle_C already has the scope functionality attached, and is the one the player gets through the church quest.

It is therefore easiest if that is the one that has the stats rebalanced to achieve interesting player strategic choice, which means smaller caliber= more ammo, less damage.

A Baker rifle for a specific storyline can then be added as a storyline new rifle, like currently done for the other quest storylines, and have its own entry balanced accordingly. Hornblower can then be the same as the other storylines in this.

The ONLY way you get this rifle is for that one quest, it never appears otherwise, ithas a rarity of 0.00 and a min level of 99. So it is a player only weapon from that quest, not something we need to balance across time periods.

SUMMARY: my posted fix ensures a historically accurate and interesting strategic choice (more ammo, longer reload, less damage) version of the rifle gets given to the player in the only way a rifle can be obtained, through the quest. It preserves the scope functionality from that quest by not moving it around to a new entry. It even improves the Hornblower storyline by upping the stats for the LongRifle_C to a reasonable level, and can be seen as a partial fix if it was previously using the 20 accuracy 50-150 damage no scope version before my changes.

So this change improves everything. If you want to finetune the baker rifle for the hornblower storyline, just define a new item for that storyline, that is the sensible version, no? :)
 
If you want to finetune the baker rifle for the hornblower storyline, just define a new item for that storyline, that is the sensible version, no? :)
@Grey Roger: That should be quite doable actually, no?
Takes only a few minutes I should think....
 
Building off that, perhaps the newly defined Baker Rifle should actually be allowed to appear in the game in the napoleonic period (set its rarity to something above 0, and a min level of 25 or so, unlike the LongRifle_C)

That would be interesting, and create more variety in enemy weapon types. No reason for it to be player only in that period. :)
 
@Pieter Boelen

I took care of the first part of it I think. :) Created a new LongRifle_H for Napoleonic period (hornblower plus can now be found as random weapon)

Attached item and GM files. I used @Grey Roger proposed stats for accuracy and damage for the Baker Rifle. I then set it to slightly rarer (.02 vs .05 musket) and same min level as a musket, and let it appear in the Napoleonic. I gave it a reasonable price, slightly above a musket. I then copied over and renamed the normal rifle GM files for it.

All that needs to be done is the hornblower storyline redifined to use this rifle (not sure how to do that one).

However, these files shouldn't be used until after we decide to break saved game compatibility, given the glitch with adding items. So I propose keeping this one in quenue for when we are ready to break compatibility anyway (along with Jack Rackham's other new items), and using the file I posted in the other thread for now.

Here is the new item entry for Baker Rifle from the attached file:
n = InitGun(n,"LongRifle_H", "LongRifle_H_back", "BOP2",11,0.02,20, 4000,150.0,250.0, 120, 1, 50, "", "OBJECTS\DUEL\pistol_medium2.wav","pb", 1, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC, PERIOD_NAPOLEONIC); // TY: Baker Rifle for Hornblower and Napoleonic


EDIT: See later post for updated archive with hornblower storyline fixed.
 
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All that needs to be done is the hornblower storyline redifined to use this rifle (not sure how to do that one).
Use Windows Search & Notepad++ "Search and Replace in All Open Files" to replace "LongRifle_C" with "LongRifle_H".
 
Found and edited. Added them to archive, here is a rar file with all 5 files (now includes the hornblower storyline updates).

Editing previous post to remove old incomplete archive.

Anything else from item file that needs to be changed to add the new item? And anything beyond the GF files?

EDIT: now updated archive in post below!
 
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You covered RESOURCE\INI\TEXTS\ENGLISH\ItemsDescribe.txt already?

If yes, start a new game on Hornblower and see if the soldiers in port carry the rifles.
They're actually the same Riflemen characters, so if I recall, they should be properly equipped with them.
 
Nope, but now I did. ;)

itmname_LongRifle_H {Long Rifle}
itmdescr_LongRifle_H
{
A Baker Rifle, a flintlock rifle used by the British army during the Napoleonic wars.
}

New rar archive attached, now 6 files.

That should do it? :)

EDIT: Can't test right now (my wife just got home and she opened with "hang out with me, no more modding tonight", I will try to test later this week if someone can't test it out before me. :)

EDIT2: and new archive on the next page of the thread! ;)
 
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