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Feature Request Soldier Weapon Types During Boarding

Discussion in 'Build 15 Brainstorming' started by Pieter Boelen, Jul 29, 2016.

  1. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    Especially @Grey Roger and @Jack Rackham: I just remembered I still had to do something about those "soldier weapons during boarding", so see attached for my proposal.
    I excluded Pirates from the soldier weapons at sea, since it seems really weird for them to always have the same type of weapons.
    For real soldiers, I restored the original ARF code (from before @Jack Rackham's additions) and made some slight tweaks myself.

    If this does what I think it should, you should no longer see bayonets at sea; though you may still get the Musketoon in the later time periods.
    Does this seem like a good idea? Or would some further tweaks be needed?
     
  2. Grey Roger

    Grey Roger Sea Dog Staff Member Storm Modder

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    Looking through the swords you're assigning:
    Why is America getting a sword which doesn't exist when America exists? For that matter, what's going to happen in later periods when most of the swords shouldn't exist?

    Some of the swords are pretty powerful. If you can survive taking them, you're going to get lots of them, which you can then either hand to your officers and crew, though admittedly that happens now anyway when the standard armament of the opposition is swept-hilt rapiers, Venetian cutlasses and Hibernians.

    So Portugal may as well get the Portuguese Officer's Sword. It's available in all periods, and a pretty nice sword (it's a good reason for going into the Barbados cave, one of them is hidden in there) but not as nice as the Corsair's Pride which apparently is now standard issue for English warships. And if we're giving away powerful swords then America may as well have the US Cavalry Sabre - it's only available in "Revolutions" and "Napoleonic", but then, so is America.
     
  3. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    For the record, these assignments were originally made by ARF.
    I'm just restoring them since it seems to me they're more appropriate at sea than muskets with bayonets.

    Assuming those comments are accurate, apparently it is intentional. But a "before/after Golden Age of Piracy" if-statement is still quite simplified.
    It could be replaced with a full period-dependent switch. If only someone would know which swords would be better to put to use there.
    I don't and I don't think it is worth my time to figure it out.

    That was probably purely for "just in case" scenarios. Same reason why you defined promotion reward ships for the Pirates which aren't used.

    That is indeed a bit of a concern of mine, but that also applies to the Town Guards on shore.
    Boardings may be harder to survive, because enemy HP is probably higher than regular town soldiers.
    So I am hoping these better weapons are serving more as deterrent against boarding navy ships in the early game than an exploit that hands out awesome weapons with ease.
    I think only play-testing will tell us for sure though....

    If you can think of more reasonable assignments, please be my guest and change it. :doff
     
  4. Grey Roger

    Grey Roger Sea Dog Staff Member Storm Modder

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    I tried to install this.

    Snag 1: that version of "Periods.c" is dated 18th January and is obsolete. "WinMerge" shows a lot of difference between that and a modern version, starting with but not limited to international relations in "Early Explorers".

    Snag 2: thinking this over a bit, I wonder if this is really a good idea? If you're playing as a naval officer then it's supposed to be your duty to take on enemy navy ships, which is going to be difficult if you're the only naval captain in the whole Caribbean whose crew don't have these swords.

    Snag 3: "Ardent" requires you to board a small naval vessel early on, a "CastelF" brigantine with a military crew. This is already tough, intentionally so, and could become near impossible if the entire enemy crew are carrying tizonas - admittedly that's one of the less scary swords being assigned and by this point in the story you'll have taken one from the captain of another ship, plus you've probably been to Port Royale in which case there's another nice sword in the dungeon. Your officer and crew won't be so well endowed, though. On the other hand, if this part of the story is not impossibly hard with the crew of the payroll ship carrying tizonas then you'll end up with a large number of tizonas to hand to your officers and crew. The tizona is defined in "initItems.c" as minlevel 10, which you probably won't be at this point in the storyline.
     
  5. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    Oops, looks like I posted COMPLETELY the wrong version. Please ignore that; I'll try to remember tonight to post the correct one instead.

    As captain in charge, you're able to supply your own crew with whatever swords you want, right?

    I think it should also be relatively easy to do auto-equipping for naval officer crews.
    Then the player gets the same advantage that enemy ships do too.

    Then that's a nice advantage afterwards, no?
    If you insist, we could add a character attribute that, if present, will avoid this behaviour for that specific ship.
    That is easy enough to arrange.
     
  6. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    Bonus idea: What if we do this, but ONLY on the first (ouside) deck.
    Then on the inside deck, rather than fighting soldiers, you get to fight sailors with random weapons.
    That way we also simulate the idea of navay ships having a combination between soldiers and sailors in boardings.
     
  7. Grey Roger

    Grey Roger Sea Dog Staff Member Storm Modder

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    If you have them, yes. Remember that these are all pretty advanced weapons which are not available to the player early on. Several are minlevel 11.
    Does that mean naval players would get advanced swords considerably earlier than everyone else? And the nice sword which you receive upon promotion to high enough rank might look rather plain when everyone already has them.
    That could help, yes.
    That mitigates the problem but the fundamental issue still remains - either that first deck is near suicidal for a low level player, or the player is going to get a bunch of advanced swords rather early on. Of course, once he's managed to take a few naval ships, he'll have enough of them to go round all his officers and crew, at which point boarding becomes a bit easier and he can collect more of them. Dutch ships now become the priority target because their marines have Dutch Admiralty swords, whose base price is 2548. ;)
     
  8. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    If the enemies on a deck have weapons which are minlevel 11 the enemies should be above level 11 also. So normally they should be pretty tough. If you with a level 1 character are able to take over a ship which is populated by a lot of enemies which are level 11 or higher I think you deserve to get some good loot ;).
     
  9. Grey Roger

    Grey Roger Sea Dog Staff Member Storm Modder

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    That's the point, though. The enemies aren't necessarily level 11+. The idea seems to be to give all naval crews these weapons. So either they're all level 11+ right from the start of the game or they're getting level 11 weapons while they're level 1 or 2.

    If it's a matter of giving naval characters their correct national weapons at the correct level instead of the random swept-hilt rapiers, Venetian cutlasses and Hibernians which they get at high level, while leaving them with generic cutlasses and sabres at low level, that would be much better for game play. It wouldn't risk breaking my storyline either. Then there's just the matter of picking weapons suitable for the period, too - what are the French going to get in "Napoleonic" if their default weapon, the French Admiralty Rapier, is only available up to "Golden Age", for example?
     
  10. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    Their crew would, yes. Still not officers and player himself though.

    If you have suggestions for less high-level weapons being assigned, that would also be quite fine.

    Only the first deck means at least the difficulty is reduced and so is the number of high-level swords you'd get from it.

    Enemy boarding crew strength should not be related to the player level, but more to the relative strengths between the player ship and the enemy one.
    So since that "player-centric behaviour" doesn't apply there, I'm not sure I see a need to have the weapons be player-centric.

    Of course the whole "hardcoding all of this" approach is not a perfect solution; it is just a simple solution.
    Ideally I'd like "character types" to be defined for all weapons, so certain weapons are available to only soldiers, others for only captains, others for regular sailors and others again for random highwaymen.
    But that would require a far more substantial reworking of the "equipping code" and I think it would be most unwise to try and do that in the near future.

    Some of the reasons why I think having Soldier Weapons in boardings is a good idea:
    - Soldiers ashore get them, so why not at sea?
    - Giving out stronger weapons should make it more dangerous to try and tackle any navy ships, which is good because the navy should be tough opponents
    - It adds another difference between the various nations and I like them being as not-the-same to each other as possible
     
  11. Grey Roger

    Grey Roger Sea Dog Staff Member Storm Modder

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    Not until you loot some dead crew, your or enemy, of which there will be quite a few on the first deck. If you actually survive the first deck then you ought to get at least three or four swords, enough to equip yourself and all three of your party officers.
    England: Highlander - blade11
    France: duelling rapier - blade13
    Holland: German rapier - blade19
    Spain: light tizona - blade47
    Portugal: Iberian longsword - blade15 (either switch to something else from "Colonial Powers" onwards or change its definition in "initItems.c" so it's valid for later periods)
    America: Smallsword - bladeC6 (not purely American, but nobody else is getting it as a naval standard sword because it doesn't exist before "Golden Age").
    Expect 3-4 enemy boarders and a couple of your own, so at least 3 swords per ship taken. That's enough for your officers, anyway.
    So little ships like naval cutters just get the usual cutlasses and it's only decent size ships like frigates which get the good swords? I like that idea! For one thing, it means "Ardent" won't be affected since the payroll ship is just a tier 6 CastelF. For another, you won't be going after the big ships anyway until you're a reasonably high level because you won't survive boarding a big frigate until you have a good set of melee perks, a good sword and preferably at least battle armour.

    Though you said "relative strength", which means if you're in a tier 6 ship yourself then that CastelF might still have the good swords...
     
  12. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    I think what @Pieter Boelen is aiming for eventually is having the strenght of the enemies on ships be completly depended on the ship. So when you just start playing the game even the smallest ship will probably be to tough for you to take. After you've raised a few levels and gotten some better crew etc you can take the level 5-6 ships. They will have crew which are say round level 8 (just an arbitrary number atm).
    for navy ships for example they could consist out of some navy character which have some better equipment and some "normal" peopel which have lesser equipment.
    If you go up to higher tier ships you will encounter ships full of navy character which say or example are level 15 and have full equipment of pretty high level. And the higher the tier of the ship the better they are equiped (for example they have potions too etc). And they are higher level.
     
  13. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    Sounds quite fine to me. Is that OK for all Periods?

    With "strength", I was referring mainly to level, HP and skills.
    Soldier equipping at the moment bypasses everything level-related. Ideally it shouldn't, but as I said, that is not so easily changed.

    With less awesome swords being assigned, do you think this feature as it currently is becomes more feasible?

    That does sound OK, actually. :yes
     
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  14. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    Also we could play with the quality of the weapons on lower level enemies to make sure you get less money for it. I don't know how much this is done at the moment.
     
  15. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    For the soldiers, not at all. I think a low quality expensive weapon still sells for quite a substantial price.

    At the moment, my preference would be to use the weapons that @Grey Roger suggested, add the "exclude from this" character attribute and leave it at that.
    Not perfect perhaps, but by far the simplest solution with the least risk of breaking anything that is currently working.
     
  16. Grey Roger

    Grey Roger Sea Dog Staff Member Storm Modder

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    Few if any are valid for "Early Explorers". There aren't that many swords which are valid for all periods from "Early Explorers" to "Napoleonic", are moderate level, and are even remotely suitable for a national standard sword. And, as I said, the Iberian longsword is not valid from "Colonial Powers" onwards. Perhaps use Milanese longsword, bladeC11, for Portugal instead.
    I'm not sure. If it's implemented soon then I'll try it out during the next playtest of "Ardent" and see if it makes the "Payroll Ship" quest suicidally difficult. If Spain gets the light tizona as standard then it might work and although that sword is supposed to be minlevel 9, it's not that much better than some others which are minlevel 5 or less. And although you may not be level 5 by this point, your officers start off already at that level or better.
     
  17. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    I'll post another proposal tonight.
     
  18. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    For now we can indeed solve this easily and if we are going to look into the ship/captain generation this could be an item on the list also to look at.
     
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  19. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    @Grey Roger: Please try the attached archive instead.
    This one contains the correct code, I used your sword suggestions and then made some changes of my own too.
    I also got rid of the use of ANY unique weapons on soldiers, since they aren't very unique if every soldier has one.

    You can now also add a "skipSoldierWeapons" attribute to your captain if you insist his soldiers should not get the "default weapons".

    Does this seem better?
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Grey Roger

    Grey Roger Sea Dog Staff Member Storm Modder

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    Pirates shouldn't matter. In one version of "LAi_boarding.c" at least, soldier weapons are skipped if the nation is "PIRATE". Pirates shouldn't be using standard weapons, they use whatever they stole from someone else. But if they do use standard weapons, the Dragon's Head is a rare, powerful sword which you can get three ways. You can join the Brethren of the Coast and be promoted to level 3. You can take it from the dead hands of one or two captains. Or now you can just kill any regular pirate. ;)

    Likewise, the Crab Claw broadsword is described in "initItems.c" as "rare+'fantasy' blade" and in "ItemsDescribe.txt" as "Ancient and rare". This is why I didn't suggest it as suitable for a general Portuguese weapon. ;)

    Why give Spain the more powerful tizona in earlier periods and the light tizona later? It's available in all periods, so you could use it for all periods.

    Having musketoons as general issue firearms is perhaps not a good idea. The guy in front is going to be engaged in close combat pretty quickly, which means it's the guy at the back who will fire his musketoon, much to the annoyance of the guy in front. Also, firearms in general are now more dangerous due to the reduced effect of armour on firearms, so giving the opposition area effect weapons as standard is likely to make boarding much nastier. Perhaps use "pistol2" (duelling pistol, available in all periods) for early times and "pistol8" (brace of flintlock pistols) for later. Besides, the opposition don't always get to use their guns before they are in close combat, so giving them good guns will either make boarding too nasty or give the player a lot of free guns if he wins the sword fights.

    Try this version of "Periods.c". The supposedly rare swords aren't in general use any more, and the default early pistol is the duelling pistol rather than the brace of small pistols - the enemy may only get one shot before sword fighting starts, so make it a good one. If Pirates are getting standard weapons at all then they can have the Bosun's Choice in later periods, which is better than what most navies are getting, so they get the Brace of Small Pistols to balance them while navies get the Brace of Flintlock Pistols.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2016
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