WIP Some tweaks to hired officer level function

[Tingyun]

In accordance with discussion here: Poll - More unique officers | Page 5 | PiratesAhoy!

Removed the bonus levels given the officers hired through the tavern inn keeper dialogue. They will now be consistent with the levels of tavern table hires, NOT higher level.

Also transformed the 2xluck+3xleadership bonus for hired officers generally with a simple 5xleadership.

I'm not sure if most people were even aware luck had nearly as much influence there as leadership--when I was a new player and asked a couple of times what influences hired officer level, the answer I got was player level and leadership. Noone ever mentioned luck skill, and this really is a place for leadership to have its influence.

It balances well especially with the recent removal of the "high leadership reduces salaries" mechanic, as now leadership is given more of a boost. Luck still retains its core functions in looting, finding treasure, and covert actions.

(for reference, the other primary influence on hired officer level is difficulty setting, which is of course left in place and a great use of difficulty level)

EDIT: luck to leadership included through merging into Levis experiment

Tavern dialogue switch altered to arcade only and included in last post.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I'm not sure if most people were even aware luck had nearly as much influence there as leadership--when I was a new player and asked a couple of times what influences hired officer level, the answer I got was player level and leadership. Noone ever mentioned luck skill, and this really is a place for leadership to have its influence.

What all skills do is REALLY fuzzy.
Unless you really investigate, nobody truly knows.

 

[Levis]

I believe this is not yet included in the mod yet right?
Should we? did anyone test it?

 

[Grey Roger]

Weakening the officers hired by dialog with the tavern keeper is not a good idea. The whole point there was that you can get a better officer than the random table-sitters, but you only get one chance - take him or leave him.

It doesn't bother me as I never use the tavern keeper dialog anyway, preferring to keep checking the table-sitters until I get one who I find suitable. (Reputation is more important to me than officer type because the primary purpose of my officers is to command prize ships.) But the folks who wanted the tavern dialog officers in the first place might want them to remain superior.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I believe this is not yet included in the mod yet right?

Well, it was posted on Thursday and I'm still on the 28 July 2016 base.
So if you didn't add it, it is indeed not included.

Should we?

Removing the Leadership influence in tavern.c was my suggestion and is completely safe.
I was never sure if I should add that or not and nobody could give me any feedback at the time.
But we do have feedback now, so let's include this change.

As for removing Luck and increasing the effect of Leadership here, I do think that makes sense.
At the moment it is used completely all over the place as if it is pure magic and I don't like that one bit.
Partly because that sort of luck doesn't actually exist and also because it completely confuses what the various skills do.
Before we do that though, maybe we should have a general poll on what to do with the various influences of Luck.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Weakening the officers hired by dialog with the tavern keeper is not a good idea. The whole point there was that you can get a better officer than the random table-sitters, but you only get one chance - take him or leave him.

No, that was not the whole point. The whole point is that you can find the type of officer that you're looking for.
So if you want a Carpenter, you don't have to hope you run into one eventually, but you can force one to appear immediately.

It doesn't bother me as I never use the tavern keeper dialog anyway, preferring to keep checking the table-sitters until I get one who I find suitable. (Reputation is more important to me than officer type [...].)

Reputation is 100% random. Which means there is a 50% chance of any given officer to have a matching reputation to your own.
So you could:
1. Try the tavern owner option
2. If not OK, spend the night in the tavern
3. Then try it again

That gives you a 50% chance at a reasonable reputation twice. So on average, that should be pretty much a 100% guarantee.
This completely without using the "tavern in/out" hack/cheat
So why wouldn't you want to even try using that?

the primary purpose of my officers is to command prize ships.

YIIIIKES!!!!! Alarm bells are going mental here!!!
That means that officers helping the player by contributing their skills and abilities is completely and utterly not important enough as otherwise you would not be saying that!

But the folks who wanted the tavern dialog officers in the first place might want them to remain superior.

The only person who ever provided feedback on it specifically said he doesn't use it because of this.
So at the moment, there is only evidence to the contrary.

 

[Grey Roger]

Reputation is 100% random. Which means there is a 50% chance of any given officer to have a matching reputation to your own.

Not so, the reason being that neutral is also acceptable.

So you could:
1. Try the tavern owner option
2. If not OK, spend the night in the tavern
3. Then try it again

That gives you a 50% chance at a reasonable reputation twice. So on average, that should be pretty much a 100% guarantee.
This completely without using the "tavern in/out" hack/cheat
So why wouldn't you want to even try using that?

Perhaps because I don't want to wait a day. Perhaps because it's easier just to leave and re-enter the tavern to try again than to spend a night and try again. I don't see it as a hack/cheat anyway.

YIIIIKES!!!!! Alarm bells are going mental here!!!
That means that officers helping the player by contributing their skills and abilities is completely and utterly not important enough as otherwise you would not be saying that!

Not so, I do recruit officers to use in their posts - more than enough, in fact, because they gain levels slowly so they don't get perks all that frequently. If I have two surgeons then one can concentrate on the traditional defence perks while the other can go after the poison resistance and enhanced potion perks, for example. But that is secondary to the purpose of capturing enemy ships to sell for profit. At the very least, I want them to be able to command prize ships, in addition to any skill and perk boosts which they may provide in the future when their skills and perks build up.

As for alarm bells - they've been going off here on a near constant basis, and I'm getting used to them now...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Not so, the reason being that neutral is also acceptable.

That reinforces my point.
Since "neutral" and "matching" are both acceptable, the chance of finding an OK officer is technically slightly above 50%.

Perhaps because I don't want to wait a day. Perhaps because it's easier just to leave and re-enter the tavern to try again than to spend a night and try again. I don't see it as a hack/cheat anyway.

Then why don't you:
1. Enter the tavern
2. Try the tavern owner option
3. IF this doesn't give you what you want, talk to a table officer
4. IF this also doesn't give what you want, either:

a. Spend the night: you can wait 24 hours in one go, so you don't even need to leave the location at all
This makes ingame time pass more quickly, which means rations consumption and salary go on.
But there is a near 100% guarantee that the next day, you'll find what you want. So you waste less REAL time.
It also makes realistic sense.

b. Exit/enter location and try again
50% chance of a (different) officer appearing with a random type.
So there is a substantially less than 50% chance that on second try, it will be an officer you want.
You may have to repeat this multiple times, which means you have to spend more REAL time.
It is also doesn't make logical sense for officers to magically appear in a location you only just left when they weren't there.

In the end though, you can combine both methods; it isn't one OR the other.

As for alarm bells - they've been going off here on a near constant basis, and I'm getting used to them now...

It is not usually MY alarm bells. Not like this anyway.

But that is secondary to the purpose of capturing enemy ships to sell for profit. At the very least, I want them to be able to command prize ships, in addition to any skill and perk boosts which they may provide in the future when their skills and perks build up.

Ah, I suppose that makes more sense.
Though wouldn't you prefer to use a somewhat capable captain, rather than assigning, for example, a random Quartermaster to command?

 

[Grey Roger]

That reinforces my point.
Since "neutral" and "matching" are both acceptable, the chance of finding an OK officer is technically slightly above 50%.

Likewise for the table-sitters, except checking again is quicker.

Then why don't you:
1. Enter the tavern
2. Try the tavern owner option
3. IF this doesn't give you what you want, talk to a table officer

It's quicker to miss out the middleman and go straight for the table officer. The only reason I'd use the tavern owner is if I've got almost all the officer types from random table sitters and still haven't been able to find a gunner, for example. Or I can just hire a random sitter, assign him as a gunner, and let him learn on the job. Early on he'll only have a couple of points of skill anyway so it doesn't make much difference.

4. IF this also doesn't give what you want, either:

a. Spend the night: you can wait 24 hours in one go, so you don't even need to leave the location at all
This makes ingame time pass more quickly, which means rations consumption and salary go on.
But there is a near 100% guarantee that the next day, you'll find what you want. So you waste less REAL time.
It also makes realistic sense.

So it costs me a day's rations and still gives me a slightly better than 50% chance of finding what I want, which is someone suitable to command a prize ship. And I disagree that it's unrealistic to leave the tavern and come back later the same day. The only unrealistic thing is that time doesn't pass when you're wandering around town.

b. Exit/enter location and try again

50% chance of a (different) officer appearing with a random type.
So there is a substantially less than 50% chance that on second try, it will be an officer you want.
You may have to repeat this multiple times, which means you have to spend more REAL time.
It is also doesn't make logical sense for officers to magically appear in a location you only just left when they weren't there.

By that logic, the entire population of the tavern should remain static. Nobody leaves, nobody enters. Or perhaps the officer who wasn't there before was going in about the same time you were going out. Perhaps he was staying the night in the hope that someone would show up the next day and has only just left the room. Or perhaps it's actually 15 minutes later but the game doesn't depict that.

It is not usually MY alarm bells. Not like this anyway.

No, it's mine. They've been going off constantly for a while and I'm learning to ignore them.

Ah, I suppose that makes more sense.
Though wouldn't you prefer to use a somewhat capable captain, rather than assigning, for example, a random Quartermaster to command?

Not really, since all he needs to do is keep the ship from disappearing due to not having a captain. Prize ships aren't going to be much use in a fight because they usually have minimal crews after the boarding actions which secured them. So I just put any random officer onto the ship, get it to the nearest port, and sell it. Besides, he might have originally advertised himself as a quartermaster but if he keeps being put in charge of prize ships then he's going to learn the fine arts of captaining, and may even get permanent command of the Mefisto if he's learned enough by the time I complete that quest.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Likewise for the table-sitters, except checking again is quicker.

Yep, that goes both ways.

It's quicker to miss out the middleman and go straight for the table officer. The only reason I'd use the tavern owner is if I've got almost all the officer types from random table sitters and still haven't been able to find a gunner, for example. Or I can just hire a random sitter, assign him as a gunner, and let him learn on the job. Early on he'll only have a couple of points of skill anyway so it doesn't make much difference.

Then swap #1 and #2 in my list.

Anyway, you don't have to use either method. They're both available and they both have their uses.
My main point is that the tavern owner option exists to allow you to find the officer type you're looking for; not necessarily to find a better officer.

So it costs me a day's rations and still gives me a slightly better than 50% chance of finding what I want, which is someone suitable to command a prize ship.

If that is all that you're after, then indeed you don't need the tavern owner. After all, ANY officer will do and competence is virtually irrelevant.

On that account, do you actually appreciate the "reputation difference can lead to mutiny" feature in the game?
If I understand you correctly, that is more of a pointless hassle that doesn't serve any purpose. Right?

And I disagree that it's unrealistic to leave the tavern and come back later the same day. The only unrealistic thing is that time doesn't pass when you're wandering around town.

It is unrealistic if you do the "in/out" trick immediately. If you do other stuff in town and then come back to the tavern, then it makes more sense.

No, it's mine. They've been going off constantly for a while and I'm learning to ignore them.

The current level of activity seems to be the cause of alarms going off left, right and centre.
Apparently just because "stuff happens". I'm hoping we'll be able to address that, because really there should be no need for that.

Not really, since all he needs to do is keep the ship from disappearing due to not having a captain. Prize ships aren't going to be much use in a fight because they usually have minimal crews after the boarding actions which secured them. So I just put any random officer onto the ship, get it to the nearest port, and sell it. Besides, he might have originally advertised himself as a quartermaster but if he keeps being put in charge of prize ships then he's going to learn the fine arts of captaining, and may even get permanent command of the Mefisto if he's learned enough by the time I complete that quest.

That makes sense, I suppose.

Does seem weird though to put a random Quartermaster in command of a prize ship.
I understand that makes sense in the current game state. But does it really make sense from a gameplay point of view?

 

[Tingyun]

I won't be able to do this entire great discussion justice in the moment I have, but I want to voice one opinion:

The idea that tavern keeper dialogue officer higher level is justified by it being more work because you might have to spend the night doesn't make sense (let me tell you how much provisions and crew salary are near completely irrelevant to any player without jacking the salary option up to 10x or more, especially when the player is near the beginning with less crew and will likely be hiring most of their officers), and the few extra seconds of player time between "staying the night" and walking in and out of the tavern is never going to be a real inconvenience.

Besides, since you can pick the class of the inn keeper dialogue officer, if anything he is much more convenient and much more likely to be what you need. Were there to be any level advantage justified by convenience, it is precisely the OPPOSITE of what is had now.

Most importantly, the current effect is a nightmare for difficulty level balancing on the higher difficulty levels, because of how it blunts the intended change.

Player lvl 18 on swashbuckler, the tavern table guys were around lvl 13, the inn keeper dialogue guys were around lvl 20, all because of the effects of an additive leadership factor.

See why I first thought the dialogue generated officers were a cheat?

 

[Grey Roger]

Then swap #1 and #2 in my list.

I suspect you mean #2 and #3. You're not going to recruit anyone until you have completed #1.

If that is all that you're after, then indeed you don't need the tavern owner. After all, ANY officer will do and competence is virtually irrelevant.

It is if you're only getting an officer with skill 1 or 2. In the short term he's just a junior officer waiting to be trained. In the long term he's whatever type he's been assigned as he'll have risen to higher level in that role.

On that account, do you actually appreciate the "reputation difference can lead to mutiny" feature in the game?
If I understand you correctly, that is more of a pointless hassle that doesn't serve any purpose. Right?

It is a negative effect to be avoided by taking appropriate precautions. There are plenty of such in the game. Being attacked by a fort because it's previously seen you as an enemy and remembers you is another one, also to be avoided by appropriate precautions.

It is unrealistic if you do the "in/out" trick immediately. If you do other stuff in town and then come back to the tavern, then it makes more sense.

Such as going for a walk and returning.

Does seem weird though to put a random Quartermaster in command of a prize ship.
I understand that makes sense in the current game state. But does it really make sense from a gameplay point of view?

There are at least three reasons why a random quartermaster might be put in charge of a prize ship. One is that he's only Commerce skill 2, so he's not much better at quartermastering than he is at anything else, which is how he probably is if you've hired him early in the game. Another is because you have one each of gunner, boatswain, quartermaster, surgeon and carpenter, and the quartermaster is the only one who isn't giving you any help in the battle. Another is because you've been using him as a prize captain for some time and now he's developed his ship command skills, and incidentally probably isn't a quartermaster any more because he's been relabelled as privateer captain.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

See why I first thought the dialogue generated officers were a cheat?

Don't worry; I added that functionality in the first place and you had me immediately convinced.

As I said earlier today: That Leadership addition was more an experiment of mine that nobody ever bothered to provide feedback on.

 

[Levis]

Also @Grey Roger and @Pieter Boelen I remember reading and seeing different occasions where the quartermaster was actually chosen as new captain after a mutiny or where he was assigned to ships (temporary) because the crew trusted him most and the first mate couldn't be spared for example.
I actually find the way Grey Rogers handles it and thinks about it sound pretty reasonable.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I suspect you mean #2 and #3. You're not going to recruit anyone until you have completed #1.

Uhm.... Yes indeed.

It is if you're only getting an officer with skill 1 or 2. In the short term he's just a junior officer waiting to be trained. In the long term he's whatever type he's been assigned as he'll have risen to higher level in that role.

True, that.

It is a negative effect to be avoided by taking appropriate precautions. There are plenty of such in the game. Being attacked by a fort because it's previously seen you as an enemy and remembers you is another one, also to be avoided by appropriate precautions.

I'm just thinking that it is very easy to avoid by doing exactly what you do.
Which makes it more of an inconvenience and less a real part of the gameplay. Right?
So in its current state, it might as well be removed for all the good it does.

Such as going for a walk and returning.

Yep.

There are at least three reasons why a random quartermaster might be put in charge of a prize ship. One is that he's only Commerce skill 2, so he's not much better at quartermastering than he is at anything else, which is how he probably is if you've hired him early in the game. Another is because you have one each of gunner, boatswain, quartermaster, surgeon and carpenter, and the quartermaster is the only one who isn't giving you any help in the battle. Another is because you've been using him as a prize captain for some time and now he's developed his ship command skills, and incidentally probably isn't a quartermaster any more because he's been relabelled as privateer captain.

Makes sense.

Just brainstorming here, but what might be necessary to make it worthwhile for players to keep some separate officers around as "dedicated prize ship officers"?
On random idea: What if an officer needs to have at least Leadership and Sailing at 2 before being able to serve as prize ship officer?
Since "1" is pretty much the bare minimum, allowing that is effectively putting a complete idiot in command.
And since all a prize ship needs to do is to "be there", that is completely OK. Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Alternatively, maybe a factor could be added to the "companion mutiny" code.
So if the Leadership and Sailing are insufficient for the size of the ship, then the Morale will keep dropping until a Mutiny occurs.
In other words: An "idiot" Quartermaster would be OK to command a Tier 7 ship. But NOT a Tier 1 ship.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Also @Grey Roger and @Pieter Boelen I remember reading and seeing different occasions where the quartermaster was actually chosen as new captain after a mutiny or where he was assigned to ships (temporary) because the crew trusted him most and the first mate couldn't be spared for example.

I'm just using the "Quartermaster" name as an example.

I actually find the way Grey Rogers handles it and thinks about it sound pretty reasonable.

I agree. Based on the current state of the game, it makes perfect sense.

 

[Levis]

Just brainstorming here, but what might be necessary to make it worthwhile for players to keep some separate officers around as "dedicated prize ship officers"?
On random idea: What if an officer needs to have at least Leadership and Sailing at 2 before being able to serve as prize ship officer?
Since "1" is pretty much the bare minimum, allowing that is effectively putting a complete idiot in command.
And since all a prize ship needs to do is to "be there", that is completely OK. Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Alternatively, maybe a factor could be added to the "companion mutiny" code.
So if the Leadership and Sailing are insufficient for the size of the ship, then the Morale will keep dropping until a Mutiny occurs.
In other words: An "idiot" Quartermaster would be OK to command a Tier 7 ship. But NOT a Tier 1 ship.

I believe there is a check already for officers to see if they can sail the ship. I remember working on that before....
I don't know about the morale, but it shouldn't be that hard.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I believe there is a check already for officers to see if they can sail the ship. I remember working on that before....

Indeed there is, but only in Realistic Game Mode. But you can overrule that, allowing you to place an incompetent officer in command.
That does further reduce the Leadership and Sailing skill of that officer, but probably nobody cares because that ship doesn't need to do anything anyway, other than to "stay afloat".

That is why my idea would be to also affect Morale, which means that you CAN do this, but on a long trip, it might end up with Mutiny on that ship.
Indeed I don't imagine it should be very hard to do that. Just adding another variable in DailyCrewUpdate.c .

 

[Grey Roger]

I'm just thinking that it is very easy to avoid by doing exactly what you do.
Which makes it more of an inconvenience and less a real part of the gameplay. Right?
So in its current state, it might as well be removed for all the good it does.

As I said, there are quite a few such inconveniences which can be avoided by taking suitable precautions. This one means you need to be at least a bit picky about officers you hire. It also means when you go into Nevis Pirate Settlement, players with good reputations will want to help Artois Voysey and players with evil reputations have a reason to side with Nigel Blythe. All of which ties into your wish to have player reputation mean something. You don't want to take away one of the few current ways in which it means something.

Just brainstorming here, but what might be necessary to make it worthwhile for players to keep some separate officers around as "dedicated prize ship officers"?

Players who want to be forced to keep separate officers as dedicated prize ship officers.

On random idea: What if an officer needs to have at least Leadership and Sailing at 2 before being able to serve as prize ship officer?
Since "1" is pretty much the bare minimum, allowing that is effectively putting a complete idiot in command.
And since all a prize ship needs to do is to "be there", that is completely OK. Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

He's not a complete idiot. An idiot is someone with skill 0, who is incapable of commanding a ship at all. This officer can't do anything useful in a battle but can at least keep the ship afloat.

Alternatively, maybe a factor could be added to the "companion mutiny" code.
So if the Leadership and Sailing are insufficient for the size of the ship, then the Morale will keep dropping until a Mutiny occurs.
In other words: An "idiot" Quartermaster would be OK to command a Tier 7 ship. But NOT a Tier 1 ship.

That's you stuffed if you haven't managed to get an officer with high Sailing and Leadership by the time you take on Silehard's flagship at the end of "Tales of a Sea Hawk", unless you want to stay in command of the lumbering monster yourself while you're trying to chase after the Black Pearl. With the quartermaster in command, Sovereign of the Seas won't play much part in that battle unless Black Pearl wanders into its firing arc, but that doesn't matter because you're going after the Pearl in whichever frigate you brought to Cozumel in the first place.

 

[Levis]

Indeed there is, but only in Realistic Game Mode. But you can overrule that, allowing you to place an incompetent officer in command.
That does further reduce the Leadership and Sailing skill of that officer, but probably nobody cares because that ship doesn't need to do anything anyway, other than to "stay afloat".

That is why my idea would be to also affect Morale, which means that you CAN do this, but on a long trip, it might end up with Mutiny on that ship.
Indeed I don't imagine it should be very hard to do that. Just adding another variable in DailyCrewUpdate.c .

doesn't that work already? The morale is bases on the leadership of the captain right? So lowering that leadership will mean the morale will be lowered even more right?