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Planned Feature Weather Discussion

morgan terror

morgan terror

Magnificent bastard
Storm Modder
Public Relations
This bug has been around for quite a while now, but i've never seen it being adressed here on the forums. I'm not sure if it's always counter-clockwise, but they are always at a 90 degree angle, as apposed to moving along with the wind like they normally do. You can tell by how the ship moves; normally it only rocks from side to side when having the wind on the beam, but in a storm it does this when the wind comes from behind. This doesn’t make sense, and makes avoiding damage by keeping the right course very confusing. I don't know if i'm supposed to be paying attention to the wind direction now, or the waves. There used to be an indicator for the ship's angle and if you were in any danger, but that seems to have been removed at some point. I'm also not getting anything like cargo being washed overboard anymore.

The following is mere speculation on my part, but maybe it's related to moments where the waves are virtually non-existent in a storm sometimes? When this happens, it is often still possible to go to the worldmap, so it’s not officially considered a storm, but there is lightning. Perhaps this kind of non-storm is intended as a prelude to a real one?

Personally, i think storms use some kind of custom waves, and the bug's somewhere in there. This does need resolving though; it can actually cost you your ship the way it is now.
 
If you don't see the roll angle indication, I think your ship should be safe from capsizing.
I've seen occasionally that it isn't there (not sure why), but normally it is there just fine.

Sometimes I see waves coming from the direction of the wind and sometimes from somewhere else.
Of course there can be multiple wave systems from different directions anyway, just like in real life.
 
The problem is that the game constantly advises you to sail along with or against the wind in a storm to reduce damage, but it's contradicted by the waves. It's confusing. The waves not following the wind does not happen anywhere else in the game, nor is it so crucial as it is here. Maybe it does happen in real life, but this is a gameplay mechanic than can pose a serious threat to the player. The way things are now mean that you either take more damage due to being poorly angled to the wind, or you risk capsizing. You sink either way. You should be able to avoid both problems, which was how the storm sailing mechanics were originally intended (as long as you could compensate for the waves pushing your ship around), which could be done if the waves followed the wind, but they're not.
 
It is completely random. Sometimes the wind is blowing with the waves, sometimes sideways, and sometimes against the waves. Then it is always changing anyway. Don't pay attention to the wind as it has nothing to do with anything else.
 
Hylie Pistof said:
It is completely random. Sometimes the wind is blowing with the waves, sometimes sideways, and sometimes against the waves. Then it is always changing anyway. Don't pay attention to the wind as it has nothing to do with anything else.
Click to expand...

Is that only with storms? I would have sworn the ship rocks far more with the wind on the beam, and far less if you've got the wind from behind or in front (though sailing against it causes more 'bucking'). This is realistic, and seems very consistent outside of storms. I've sailed enough hours in realistic sailing mode to see that, though the phenomenon may have different origins.

Even if the waves direction is completely random everywhere, it still doesn't make sense, and i'm still unclear on what i'm actually supposed to do in a storm. Following the loading screen's advice feels extremely counterintuitive if i look at where the waves are coming from.
 
That loading screen text probably comes from the stock game.
Being able to capsize from rolling is my doing though, since I figured that just sitting out a storm is super boring.
So now you have to navigate the waves to limit your rolling from the waves.
And in the meantime don't take too much rigging damage.
I don't think I've ever lost my ship from storm damage alone; just from capsizing.

It being a bit of a balancing act is fine by me.
Surviving a storm should take some skill, luck and player involvement as far as I'm concerned.
Otherwise it is back to the old and dull "riding it out" mechanic.

And of course there is the Trident of Neptune now as an expensive, but reliable way to survive any storm.
Courtesy of @TechnicJelle. :doff
 
In regular sailing the wind and waves do somewhat follow each other, but in storms anything goes.
 
The loading screen text was not in the earlier build 14 versions, or anything before that. I actually thought you'd made them as soon as i saw them show up. I've also noticed it always displays storm-related info when going into a storm, which is a nice touch.

The thing about the balancing act is that having the waves move at a 90 degree angle looks really weird. It just doesn't make sense. It's like seeing ships sail sideways (which they technically can, but... yeah). The player involvement comes from trying not to be pushed around. Now that you've introduced the wind-dependant damage and capsizing, there's a very good reason for the player to stay on their toes rather than ride it out. In the end, the only difference it makes is this (ignoring looks and realism):

If the waves behave properly, the player can get out of a storm relatively undamaged, as long as they keep everything together.

If the waves stay the way they are, you're guaranteeing damage of some kind, wether it be through nearly capsizing or just ordinary damage. Is that what's wanted? Should storms always cause damage, or should sufficient skill enable the player to avoid it? It's a legitimate question, and there's arguments for both. I just know i'd prefer storms to make sense.
 
Hylie Pistof said:
In regular sailing the wind and waves do somewhat follow each other, but in storms anything goes.
Click to expand...
I thought so. Is that to add some element of random chance into the game? Some storms being harder to navigate through than others?
 
No, I believe it is total chaos. I ignore the wind and follow the waves. With enough perks and skills damage is greatly reduced. It is only early in the game with small ships and low perks that storms are dangerous.
 
Hm. That's no good either. Only proves that it needs to be looked at, IMO. I can see where this topic is going though. Not gonna change unless we somehow run out of other things to do, or a miracle happens.
 
I'm not saying the weather is perfect right now; I know it's not. But it is a complex system that nobody here is quite familiar with.
So unless it is hugely concerning, which I do not think it is, I consider any changes to it to be a low priority.

And I see no problem with always taking some measure of damage in a storm.
You're with a wooden ship. In very strong winds and waves.
You wouldn't expect that to be safe, would you? ;)

If we do look into the weather system, I've got some additional wishes:
- Figure out a sensible wind sea and swell direction based on wind
- Limit wind speed while ashore to avoid the grass moving like mad in a storm
- Add in some real life meteorology, such as the Eastern trade winds in the Caribbean and morning land breezes and evening sea breezes for example
- If at all possible, correlate appearance of storms between worldmap and DirectSail mode

But that's a big project and not easy. For now, it is just a Build 15 wish of mine.
 
That stuff should be a top priority IMHO. Getting the sailing part of a SAILING game correct should be much more important than all that other stuff you have been doing. This is where my priorities are. Note that I rarely comment on anything else.
 
It is a huge, huge, HUGE undertaking to tackle the weather.
I won't allow for some new project to be started until after Beta 4 is ready for public release.

We've tried to get away with similarly large changes these past few month and that is where the "three steps forward, two back" progress we currently have seems to come from.
If there is one thing we need right here, right now, it is something steady and playable for us to build on again.
We've had new updates bring down the mod like a house of cards far too bloody often.

The Weather has been in this exact state for many years now.
It isn't perfect, but it can afford remaining like this for a while longer.

It has to. Practicality speaking, we have zero choice in the matter.
Doing anything other than "tying up our current lose ends" would be a major mistake that I don't want to see made again.

New stuff AFTER the current stuff is done.
 
Pieter Boelen said:
It is a huge, huge, HUGE undertaking to tackle the weather.
I won't allow for some new project to be started until after Beta 4 is ready for public release.

We've tried to get away with similarly large changes these past few month and that is where the "three steps forward, two back" progress we currently have seems to come from.
If there is one thing we need right here, right now, it is something steady and playable for us to build on again.
We've had new updates bring down the mod like a house of cards far too bloody often.

The Weather has been in this exact state for many years now.
It isn't perfect, but it can afford remaining like this for a while longer.

It has to. Practicality speaking, we have zero choice in the matter.
Doing anything other than "tying up our current lose ends" would be a major mistake that I don't want to see made again.

New stuff AFTER the current stuff is done.
Click to expand...

I'll have to agree. Remember the crash at sea you and CCC were working on in build 13 beta? That thing stuck around.
As irksome as i find the wave bug, it'll have to stay for now. I just hope it doesn't get forgotten again like last time.
 
It's on the Bug Tracker. And in my memory too.
So I don't expect we'll forget. Not sure when we'll get round to actually doing something about it though.
We've got a bunch of other things lined up to do first.
Ideally we should have someone other than @Levis or me who'd like to investigate it.
 
Moved this to build 15 brainstorming so people can discuss how it should be etc :).
 
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