why always the caribean?

rabisyong · May 28, 2009

Why are sailing games always set in the caribean, with the character always a pirate or at best a privateer? Why has no one made a game where you play an post-captain in the Royal Navy, or the other major powers? You could start out as a lutenant or commander, in command of a sloop, then get promoted to post-captain and command frigates and 74's, then become an admiral and command fleets, mabey even get some nice titles, like Earl St. Vincent or Viscount Nelson. There you could have some real sea battles between men-of-war, not these pathetic pirate skirmishes.
Someone mentioned Silent Hunter in another forum, and if you took that concept and inserited sailing ships, it would be great.
In an aside, the best ship in the game is called a man-of-war, but it should really be called a line-of-battle or ship-of-the-line, all fighting ships, from sloops to 74's are called man-of-war.
But back to the point, there should be an sailing game using the silent hunter formula, that implements all the vast dynamics that were in place in the 1700-1800's and made sea combat so interesting.

vassock · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 28 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Why are sailing games always set in the caribean, with the character always a pirate or at best a privateer? Why has no one made a game where you play an post-captain in the Royal Navy, or the other major powers? You could start out as a lutenant or commander, in command of a sloop, then get promoted to post-captain and command frigates and 74's, then become an admiral and command fleets, mabey even get some nice titles, like Earl St. Vincent or Viscount Nelson. There you could have some real sea battles between men-of-war, not these pathetic pirate skirmishes.
Someone mentioned Silent Hunter in another forum, and if you took that concept and inserited sailing ships, it would be great.
In an aside, the best ship in the game is called a man-of-war, but it should really be called a line-of-battle or ship-of-the-line, all fighting ships, from sloops to 74's are called man-of-war.
But back to the point, there should be an sailing game using the silent hunter formula, that implements all the vast dynamics that were in place in the 1700-1800's and made sea combat so interesting.</div>
Because it would take away some of the freedom. Royal ships are governed by their own government and the rules of war. They can't capture some vessels (or if they do, they don't get to keep them), they cannot take slaves, and they have to do what their king tells them to do.

Cylon13 · May 28, 2009

Besides being a pirate and owning a ship like The Black Pearl or Cinco Liagas/Arabella and having your own fleet of ships then screw royal navy or anything of that kind.. Pirates for the win!

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thpirateshipff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :pirates

ahoy!" border="0" alt="thpirateshipff.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thpirateshipff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :pirates

ahoy!" border="0" alt="thpirateshipff.gif" />

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQP6CAwnYPw&fmt=18" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQP6CAwnYPw&fmt=18</a>

wolfsrain · May 28, 2009

Well, the Mediteranean Sea and the North Sea had its share of famous pirates and corsairs. So, yeah would be a nice change to see that part of the pirate history. The european waters had their share of scums and gentlemen.

konradk · May 28, 2009

If someone gives me properly done new map of a desired region I'd try to incorporate it in PotC (I can't do this for AoP: CoAS and I'm not sure if that it'll work, but I believe it should) so player would select the map on which to play - at least I think that it would be possible. However, all the other stuff (like making islands, definitions of islands and towns, characters etc.) should be also ready as I won't have time to do it myself.

Making a map for PotC means creating a special .gm file with "terrain shape" for every island which are to be loaded, together with a textures for them. Then every island must have its own set of files: geometry, fort, weather files together with foam files (but they're not problem since PotC produces them alone) with textures. I can't say how it's done in CoAS, but worldmap was redesigned in AoP: CT so islands were a separate entities on locators. In CoAS situation would be quite different than in PotC then.

pirate_kk

rabisyong · May 28, 2009

Point of fact a naval captain could capture any ship his nation was at war with, no different than the letters of marque u get in every pirate game, and many a frigate captain became a rich man, and there is an increadible amount of freedom in this type of occupation.

As for ur little squadron of fake pirate ships, why not have a real dignified national squadron of real men-of-war's? That seems more interesting. So for the fella who said give him a fleet of pirate ships and screw the RN, you should know that a: pirates do not operate in fleets (fleets being groups of more than 7 ships, squadrons less than 7) or squadrons, and even if they had, they would not be frigates(32-40 guns) so ur average Royal Navy squadron of frigates would eat them alive...RN for the win...

I just dont get the huge intrest in pirates....they had little ships, they could not even think of setting about a 36'gun frigate, no chance for glory...and as for your selling of slaves, that detestable pratice was done by slave ships, not your average jo blow pirate, all other things considered, their ships wernt big enough.

I defy anyone who has played silent hunter 3 or 4 to tell me a naval combat simulation using sailing ships would not be perfect using the silent hunter set up. With that set up, u could have a distinguished carrer and record, rising from a lutenant to admiral, and with all the spetacular REAL naval combat of the 1700-1800's, it would make for a much more enveloping game than some dinky pirate skirmishes in the West Indies. A naval game with all the oceans of the world open for u...

marauderim · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 28 2009, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Point of fact a naval captain could capture any ship his nation was at war with, no different than the letters of marque u get in every pirate game, and many a frigate captain became a rich man, and there is an increadible amount of freedom in this type of occupation.

As for ur little squadron of fake pirate ships, why not have a real dignified national squadron of real men-of-war's? That seems more interesting. So for the fella who said give him a fleet of pirate ships and screw the RN, you should know that a: pirates do not operate in fleets (fleets being groups of more than 7 ships, squadrons less than 7) or squadrons, and even if they had, they would not be frigates(32-40 guns) so ur average Royal Navy squadron of frigates would eat them alive...RN for the win...

I just dont get the huge intrest in pirates....they had little ships, they could not even think of setting about a 36'gun frigate, no chance for glory...and as for your selling of slaves, that detestable pratice was done by slave ships, not your average jo blow pirate, all other things considered, their ships wernt big enough.

I defy anyone who has played silent hunter 3 or 4 to tell me a naval combat simulation using sailing ships would not be perfect using the silent hunter set up. With that set up, u could have a distinguished carrer and record, rising from a lutenant to admiral, and with all the spetacular REAL naval combat of the 1700-1800's, it would make for a much more enveloping game than some dinky pirate skirmishes in the West Indies. A naval game with all the oceans of the world open for u...</div>

2 things :

first, your are in Pirates Ahoy! not in Royal Navy Sir! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :facepalm

" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />

second, your idea is really good, they could have made a carrer like you are saying, CoAC have 3 carrers, trader, privateer and personal quest, would be real nice to have a Military carrer too <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
they could even add barracks for that, just needed to add a new tipe of building in large settlements, not in all settlements ofc, only in the most developed

Thagarr · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 28 2009, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>As for ur little squadron of fake pirate ships, why not have a real dignified national squadron of real men-of-war's? That seems more interesting. So for the fella who said give him a fleet of pirate ships and screw the RN, you should know that a: pirates do not operate in fleets (fleets being groups of more than 7 ships, squadrons less than 7) or squadrons, and even if they had, they would not be frigates(32-40 guns) so ur average Royal Navy squadron of frigates would eat them alive...RN for the win...</div>

While it is true most pirates operated with one or two ships, and most were smaller sloops and galleons, there were a few exceptions. Perhaps you should do a bit more research about pirates... at one time, Henry Morgan commanded a fleet of 11 pirate ships, and more than 900 men. The Spanish Main found that fleet quite more than they could handle.

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgan" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgan</a>

Most games are set in the Caribbean because that was the center of pirate activity during the Golden Age of Piracy. That is where the most famous pirates in history plied their trade. I do agree though, it would be interesting to see a pirate game focused on areas like the Mediterranean or the Indian Ocean. Many a pirate made his mark plundering East India Company ships.

Sordid · May 28, 2009

I remember a single non-Caribbean pirate game, some ten years ago. Gloriana it was called, set in Europe. Never had a chance to play it, though.
And of course there's East India Company.

CapnSunk · May 28, 2009

Well it is called Age of Pirates, not Age of Navies. There's a vast interest in pirates, and for better or worst the POTC movies added to this interest which increases game sales. Unless game companies deem a large interest in a realistic European theater age of sail game then I doubt you'll be seeing one outside of a large scale mod.

Stallion · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 28 2009, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I just dont get the huge intrest in pirates....they had little ships, they could not even think of setting about a 36'gun frigate, no chance for glory...and as for your selling of slaves, that detestable pratice was done by slave ships, not your average jo blow pirate, all other things considered, their ships wernt big enough.</div>

I don't think it's really about what size ships they had, but more their freedom to go after what they wanted, with really only the articles they'd signed with the crew being their form of governance. Whether they did right or wrong, well, that was their choosing.

Freedom to do what we want has really never been an option for any of us, so being able to do what we decide to further our own goals, although only in a game, is nice.

Laws back then, provided somebody wasn't bending them to screw you over, were far more straightforward, too. Heck, in the wild west, everyone followed The Code of the West, which made far more sense that most, if not all, of today's laws:

<span style="font-family:Arial Helvetica sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">"Though the cowman might break every law of the territory, state and federal government, he took pride in upholding his own unwritten code. His failure to abide by it did not bring formal punishment, but the man who broke it became, more or less, a social outcast. His friends â€˜hazed him into the cutbacksâ€™ and he was subject to the punishment of the very code he had broken."

Adams breaks down the Western code into a list of qualities. Here are some of them.
<blockquote> <b>Loyalty.</b> A cowboy took pride in being loyal to his "brand." The highest compliment a man could receive in the Old West was: "Heâ€™ll do to ride the river with." This was a tribute from the old trail days when only the fearless dared to swim herds across treacherous rivers. If a life-threatening mishap occurred in the crossing, the help of the nearest cowboy would be the difference between life and death.

<b>Friendship.</b> There was no more sacred obligation than to be there when your friend needed you.

<b>Hospitality.</b> There were no motels in the Old West. Anyone who wandered in - even an enemy - was welcome at the table. The same was true for riders who joined cowboys on the range.

<b>Fair Play.</b> Westerners despised duplicity or under-handedness of any kind. The Code dictated that one could not shoot an unarmed or unwarned enemy (also known as "the rattlesnake code": always warn before you strike). All bets were off, however, if someone was being stalked.

<b>Liquor.</b> Drinking on duty was grounds for instant dismissal and blacklisting.

<b>Generosity.</b> Most cowboys were generous to a fault.

<b>Curiosity.</b> It was dangerous to inquire into what someone was back "in the states." On the frontier it didnâ€™t take long to take the measure of a man.

<b>Kindness.</b> Consideration for others was central to the Code. You didnâ€™t stir up dust in the vicinity of the chuck wagon; you didnâ€™t wake up the wrong man for herd duty.

<b>The Environment.</b> The cowboy spent most of his time in the open. He would rarely smoke during rides across fire hazard country. He had no tolerance for those who would disfigure trees or rocks.

<b>Integrity.</b> Honesty was an absolute. Locks on doors were unknown until nesters moved in. Your word was your bond; a handshake was more binding than a 100 page contract. When the terrible winters of 1887-89 virtually wiped out the cattle industry, ruined ranchers literally worked their way into early graves rather than go back on their word. Should a parent die before debts were paid off, the inheriting son or daughter assumed them. Bankruptcy was not an option.

<b>Religion.</b> To the average cowboy, religion meant living by the Golden Rule. </blockquote></span></span>

Pieter Boelen · May 28, 2009

Reading the Hornblower books does suggest to me that there's a great opportunity for a good game to be made out of that.
Especially when it'd be open-ended. You would get tasks, so you wouldn't be 100% free, but after leaving, you would be on your own.
And then you would be able to go about your task in whatever way you'd want, which can be succesful or not, and you might get some surprised along the way.
And you would get missions all around the world, wherever something relevant is going on.

For the ideal pirate game, I was also thinking it'd be nice to have at least some non-Caribbean exotic ports in the game.
For example, one town in Europe of each of the nations and also Tangiers, Indonesia, India, Cape of Good Hope, etc.
At the least, of course. But that would open up a lot of gameplay possibilities and would make the world more interesting and less samey-samey.

CapnSunk · May 28, 2009

I just don't think there is a large enough market for a European theater only game. Perhaps a good option would be continuation of game, for example finishing a main quest line took you to the European, African or Asian theater based on your choices within that main quest line. And from there take you to one of the others you haven't played etc.

With the same game mechanics, graphics etc etc it would be a nice expansion pack or a large scale mod. Doing main land areas like this would be easier to mod since you wouldn't have to do islands and such, just a generic coastline and some new skins.

But I think that is also something the Caribbean has going for it, the islands offers a unique gameplay experience. It seems like it would lose some appeal if you sailed along coast lines the entire time. Would be interesting though, and they'll eventually have to do something if they plan on continuing the series...couldn't do the same region again could they?

Pieter Boelen · May 28, 2009

I'm not quite convinced on Europe only either, though it'd certainly offer possibilities too.
Personally I'd prefer something a bit more global. Of course making the WHOLE world would be a bit much,
but maybe just do some parts really well and add some of the main parts outside of that.
Europe would need to be big for Napoleonic navy affairs and the Caribbean for pirates and then a bit of Mediterranean and Far East too.
And both the capes, of course: Good Hope and Horn. And Tahiti and Pitcairn. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :cheeky

" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />
A world like that would offer endless options for historically correct adventures.

Sordid · May 28, 2009

Well it's not like pirate games are all that popular in the first place, compared to mainstream first person shooters and such, and personally I'm finding the Caribbean theme <i>really</i> old and boring.
So if we're just throwing ideas out there, I'd like to say that in my dream pirate game we'd have only a small area, but modelled in exquisite detail. Wouldn't even have to be the whole of the Mediterranean, the Adriatic sea with its thousands of small, sparsely inhabited islands would be quite enough. A small geographical area would also fix one of the oustanding problems of Akella games (and pirate games in general), ie. the fact that ships move slowly and necessitate some kind of time compression for long voyages. I find Akella's handling of it an exceptionally poor design decision, since it stresses quick reactions rather than careful planning and deliberation. Not to mention some technical problems, such as that upon leaving a town I often find that my ship has spawned with its bow stuck into the shore and turning it about on the map can take a day or two. Utterly absurd.

rabisyong · May 28, 2009

Actually, it would not have to be limited to the european theater, i dont see any reason why you couldent include the whole world, they do in Silent Hunter 4. If that is to much town making for the devs, you could narrow it down to theaters like in Empire: Total war.

Regarding the Hornblower series, ive never read them, but I would reccomend Patrick O' Brian as a great resource on sailing and naval combat. Read those books and you will understand why a Navy game would be great.

and Thagarr, please do not mistake my not mentioning the handfull of cases where pirates had more than 1 ship as my not knowing enough about the period. If Mr. Morgan had 11 ships and 900 men in his fleet, that means around 80 men per ship, hardly a powerful fleet. The reason he was so sussesful on the Spanish Main is because he was attacking the SPANISH, not the Royal Navy, or French for that matter. The Spaniards built great ships, but they didnt sail them well. A Royal Navy frigate crews around 300 men, so 3 RN frigates would have more men then Morgans fleet of sloops. The fleet that was blockaiding Touloun (Napoleon's largest base in the Med) had over 10,000 men in it...And thats why pirates are lame compared to real navies.

Pieter Boelen · May 28, 2009

Just one small area would seem rather limited to me, depending on how small it would be. One island kind of small? Or the whole of Europe kind of small?
But moving away from the Caribbean, at least partly, would certainly offer a lot of new gameplay grounds.

I do agree about the disadvantages of using an interactive worldmap and would prefer a map where you could plot your long-distance voyages.
You would then be able to "go to sleep" and have an officer wake you when you arrive or if any other ships are sighter or something noteworthy occurs.
That'd be a pretty simply system: you'd have everything realistic, except you'd skip the boring parts.
Then it doesn't matter anymore if a voyage takes a couple of ingame hours or a couple of ingame months.
The several-months voyage would take longer in real life though, since you'd encounter more random stuff along the way.

Worldmap sailing is thoroughly unrealistic in the first place.

CapnSunk · May 28, 2009

This series is definitely NOT ready for any large scale naval battles, there is enough AI troubles with a handful of ships now.

Perhaps we should go back to the Sea Dog days and have a fantasy world of islands.

Pieter Boelen · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 28 2009, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Actually, it would not have to be limited to the european theater, i dont see any reason why you couldent include the whole world, they do in Silent Hunter 4. If that is to much town making for the devs, you could narrow it down to theaters like in Empire: Total war.</div>Modeling the whole world in extensive detail isn't quite realistic.
I imagine in Silent Hunter, you would play under water most of the time, so no great extent of detail would be needed.
Making just a chart of the world is quite doable, also when you're adding the correct water depths and currents and whatnot.
But making a detailed 3D model of all coastlines and towns...? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 28 2009, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Regarding the Hornblower series, ive never read them, but I would reccomend Patrick O' Brian as a great resource on sailing and naval combat. Read those books and you will understand why a Navy game would be great.</div>I tried to get through the first Master and Commander book, but still haven't managed. It goes into detail a bit too much for my liking.
The Hornblower books are a great read though in every way; they're well-written interesting stories with good characterisation.
And they're actually pretty easy to read, unlike the first Patrick O'Brien book. At least that's what I found. I'll try Master and Commander again though.

CapnSunk · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ May 29 2009, 03:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Just one small area would seem rather limited to me, depending on how small it would be. One island kind of small? Or the whole of Europe kind of small?
But moving away from the Caribbean, at least partly, would certainly offer a lot of new gameplay grounds.

I do agree about the disadvantages of using an interactive worldmap and would prefer a map where you could plot your long-distance voyages.
You would then be able to "go to sleep" and have an officer wake you when you arrive or if any other ships are sighter or something noteworthy occurs.
That'd be a pretty simply system: you'd have everything realistic, except you'd skip the boring parts.
Then it doesn't matter anymore if a voyage takes a couple of ingame hours or a couple of ingame months.
The several-months voyage would take longer in real life though, since you'd encounter more random stuff along the way.

Worldmap sailing is thoroughly unrealistic in the first place.</div>

I agree with that, I don't see the point of seeing our ships on the 'world' map, I thought it was just fine when we did receive messages for ship contact or destination arrival. The time they spent making the world map could have benefited other parts of the game much much more.

why always the caribean?

Landlubber

Landlubber

Super Zealot

Sailor Apprentice

Privateer

Landlubber

Sailor Apprentice

Pining for the Fjords!

Utterly inexcusable!

Sailor Apprentice

Sea Dog

Navigation Officer

Sailor Apprentice

Navigation Officer

Utterly inexcusable!

Landlubber

Navigation Officer

Sailor Apprentice

Navigation Officer

Sailor Apprentice