why always the caribean?

Oldtimer · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sordid @ May 28 2009, 09:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Well it's not like pirate games are all that popular in the first place, compared to mainstream first person shooters and such, and personally I'm finding the Caribbean theme <i>really</i> old and boring.
So if we're just throwing ideas out there, I'd like to say that in my dream pirate game we'd have only a small area, but modelled in exquisite detail. Wouldn't even have to be the whole of the Mediterranean, the Adriatic sea with its thousands of small, sparsely inhabited islands would be quite enough. A small geographical area would also fix one of the oustanding problems of Akella games (and pirate games in general), ie. the fact that ships move slowly and necessitate some kind of time compression for long voyages. I find Akella's handling of it an exceptionally poor design decision, since it stresses quick reactions rather than careful planning and deliberation. Not to mention some technical problems, such as that upon leaving a town I often find that my ship has spawned with its bow stuck into the shore and turning it about on the map can take a day or two. Utterly absurd.</div>
Hear, Hear...

most excellent idea you`ve got here. The Adriatic and maybe some more to the east , greek coast and archipelago down to the Bosphorus. This world could in fact be made much more diverse and varied than with an oceanic approach.

Real galleys for trade and war... The Knights Hospitaller... Barbarossa... Barbary pirates... Greek insurgents... Bashi-bazouks...

Me like...

Regards, Oldtimer

Pieter Boelen · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CapnSunk @ May 28 2009, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323388"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>This series is definitely NOT ready for any large scale naval battles, there is enough AI troubles with a handful of ships now.
Perhaps we should go back to the Sea Dog days and have a fantasy world of islands.</div>There's a lot of interesting navy-stuff that can be done without requiring huge sea battles.
Of course with an improved AI, this should be possible. But it wouldn't be easy. Quite nice, though, but one could argue that it'd just become a whole other game then.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CapnSunk @ May 28 2009, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I agree with that, I don't see the point of seeing our ships on the 'world' map, I thought it was just fine when we did receive messages for ship contact or destination arrival. The time they spent making the world map could have benefited other parts of the game much much more.</div>More arcade = more people playing? I don't quite agree, of course.
My suggestion would make for a fast-paced game too, since you skip the boring parts. So it should be just fine for regular gamers too, right?
Or as "regular" as they can be when they're playing sailing games.

When it comes to "regular" gaming, I'd also like to have some more interactive and fast-paced fighting system for fencing.
Ship battles should be slow and strategic, but massive boardings not so much. A lot of gameplay could be added if you've got more freedom.
To climb the rigging, for example, or swing towards the other ship or shoot a cannonball at a line so that it breaks and falls on top of the enemies on deck.

Pieter Boelen · May 28, 2009

We have actually been discussing some of the above... elsewhere. I have now made that thread available for everyone to view.
See here: <a href="http://forum.piratesahoy.net//index.php?showtopic=13052" target="_blank">The Ideal Game Story</a>.

rabisyong · May 28, 2009

I had the same trouble getting into Master & Commander, but once i got into it, i loved his style of writing. It may not be for everyone, but if u dig it, its great. Defiently a unique writer though.

You might say than modeling the coast lines for the whore world is un-realistic, but World of Warcraft has a huge game world...it can be done. Of course, you could have theaters, Europe, the med, west and east indis

It would have to be a whole other game of course....

But like P Boelen said, alot can be done without having huge battles...cutting out ships for one, raiding outpost, you could have a dynamic of the longer your crew sails together and the more you train then...at cost....the better they are

CapnSunk · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ May 29 2009, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>When it comes to "regular" gaming, I'd also like to have some more interactive and fast-paced fighting system for fencing.
Ship battles should be slow and strategic, but massive boardings not so much. A lot of gameplay could be added if you've got more freedom.
To climb the rigging, for example, or swing towards the other ship or shoot a cannonball at a line so that it breaks and falls on top of the enemies on deck.</div>

Target reticle! Shooting with a reticle instead of just hitting a button and fencing with a reticle...that might take too much effort though.

I've played all in the series since sea dogs so I forget which ones had and did not have the high/low attacks, but that should be brought back imo. Thinking of games similar to fencing, perhaps boxing is the closest I can think of that could be copied. Defending is as easy as high or low and lining up hits, or thrusts in our case, as high right/left, low right/left and then hooks, jabs, uppercuts etc keys replaced by keys that perform thrust, riposte, feint, and cut.

Pieter Boelen · May 28, 2009

There's a difference between "a huge world" and "THE world" though. When you model the real world, people would expect it to look recognisable.
That's harder to do than just making a world that looks good.
In World of Warcraft, does the world actually look different in different places? Or is it a bit like AoP/CoAS where all islands and all towns look pretty much the same?

Of course a LOT is possible if you've got the people, time and money to make it happen.
But what point is there really in modeling all the little islands of Alaska correctly in a game like we're proposing? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :cheeky

" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />
Some artistic license and simplifications would go a long way in making a big, realistic and varied game world possible though.

CapnSunk · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 29 2009, 04:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I had the same trouble getting into Master & Commander, but once i got into it, i loved his style of writing. It may not be for everyone, but if u dig it, its great. Defiently a unique writer though.

You might say than modeling the coast lines for the whore world is un-realistic, but World of Warcraft has a huge game world...it can be done. Of course, you could have theaters, Europe, the med, west and east indis

It would have to be a whole other game of course....

But like P Boelen said, alot can be done without having huge battles...cutting out ships for one, raiding outpost, you could have a dynamic of the longer your crew sails together and the more you train then...at cost....the better they are</div>

That's a whole nother ball game, world of warcraft imo has poor graphics (haven't played the new expansions so can't say how that is, last I played my guild were trying to clear the last boss of SSC before that sunwell update came or whatever). But more importantly blizzard has tons of resources, little to no chance any game of this nature would have that kind of market share.

Pieter Boelen · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CapnSunk @ May 28 2009, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Target reticle! Shooting with a reticle instead of just hitting a button and fencing with a reticle...that might take too much effort though.</div>Actual aiming? That takes a bit longer whilst in the thick of a boarding though,
making it rather hard when people are whacking away at you.
But it'd certainly be more realistic. I suppose an option to use auto-aim or manual aim should be available, with manual aim being more accurate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CapnSunk @ May 28 2009, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I've played all in the series since sea dogs so I forget which ones had and did not have the high/low attacks, but that should be brought back imo. Thinking of games similar to fencing, perhaps boxing is the closest I can think of that could be copied. Defending is as easy as high or low and lining up hits, or thrusts in our case, as high right/left, low right/left and then hooks, jabs, uppercuts etc keys replaced by keys that perform thrust, riposte, feint, and cut.</div>I think it's just PotC that has attack/block/jump backwards buttons.
The other games all have multiple attacks, though I never really played any of them.

When it comes to swordfights, I wonder how things would work if it were set up more like an action/adventure game and less like an RPG.
I was thinking of the fighting system in Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb,
where you can perform a lot of moves by using the mouse and the arrows buttons only.
That system works really quite intuitive and is a lot of fun too. Not sure what people liking more realistic gameplay would think of that though.

CapnSunk · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ May 29 2009, 04:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Actual aiming? That takes a bit longer whilst in the thick of a boarding though,
making it rather hard when people are whacking away at you.
But it'd certainly be more realistic. I suppose an option to use auto-aim or manual aim should be available, with manual aim being more accurate.

I think it's just PotC that has attack/block/jump backwards buttons.
The other games all have multiple attacks, though I never really played any of them.

When it comes to swordfights, I wonder how things would work if it were set up more like an action/adventure game and less like an RPG.
I was thinking of the fighting system in Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb,
where you can perform a lot of moves by using the mouse and the arrows buttons only.
That system works really quite intuitive and is a lot of fun too. Not sure what people liking more realistic gameplay would think of that though.</div>

Probably was Sea Dogs then that I'm remembering. I haven't played any of the sword fighting action games so no idea how they work. Maybe sea dogs 3 will come with a wii esque controller for sword fighting <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :bow

" border="0" alt="bow.gif" /> now how cool would that be, I'd often sink ships just because I'm too lazy to sword fight...just like I would if it were real life!

Sordid · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ May 28 2009, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Just one small area would seem rather limited to me, depending on how small it would be. One island kind of small? Or the whole of Europe kind of small?
But moving away from the Caribbean, at least partly, would certainly offer a lot of new gameplay grounds.</div>
Well it doesn't really matter how large the area is geographically, what counts is detail. Look at Daggerfall. A world of over 160,000 square kilometers with fifteen thousand towns, villages, castles, and dungeons in it. But it made no difference because it was all horribly generic and empty. And Bethesda learned and the following games focused on a smaller area in much more detail and were a lot better for it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Worldmap sailing is thoroughly unrealistic in the first place.</div>
Well yes and no. Just skipping entire parts of the voyage might create problems, what if you decide to alter course? If you're just skipping time instantly then you have a problem. What I'd love to see is an interface fashioned like an actual historical nautical map, with your ship's route and current position marked, as well as that of other ships in visual range or those you know about. You could then accelerate time at will and watch the blips move, and pause whenever you wanted. An absolute must would be an auto-pause when anything noteworthy happens. I absolutely hate how in Akella games enemy ships come whizzing out of hyperspace and if you so much as blink they're right on top of you before you know it.

CapnSunk · May 28, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sordid @ May 29 2009, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323427"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ May 28 2009, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Just one small area would seem rather limited to me, depending on how small it would be. One island kind of small? Or the whole of Europe kind of small?
But moving away from the Caribbean, at least partly, would certainly offer a lot of new gameplay grounds.</div>
Well it doesn't really matter how large the area is geographically, what counts is detail. Look at Daggerfall. A world of over 160,000 square kilometers with fifteen thousand towns, villages, castles, and dungeons in it. But it made no difference because it was all horribly generic and empty. And Bethesda learned and the following games focused on a smaller area in much more detail and were a lot better for it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Worldmap sailing is thoroughly unrealistic in the first place.</div>
Well yes and no. Just skipping entire parts of the voyage might create problems, what if you decide to alter course? If you're just skipping time instantly then you have a problem. What I'd love to see is an interface fashioned like an actual historical nautical map, with your ship's route and current position marked, as well as that of other ships in visual range or those you know about. You could then accelerate time at will and watch the blips move, and pause whenever you wanted. An absolute must would be an auto-pause when anything noteworthy happens. I absolutely hate how in Akella games enemy ships come whizzing out of hyperspace and if you so much as blink they're right on top of you before you know it.
</div>

The way Sea Dogs originally worked, and my memory is hazy so correct me on the finer points if I'm wrong, is you had a nautical map and a ticker that showed the days. It would go from day to day quickly and you could interrupt your travel any time you wanted to alter your course or whatever reason. If you made contact with a ship it would automatically stop and tell you what was spotted and whether you wanted to pursue or not, if you had a choice. Most encounters were not aggressive as is the case with CoAS.

LordDrow · May 28, 2009

Swordfighting - None of the seadogs or related games ever had high/low attacks, I believe you are thinking of Sid Meiers Pirates.

In Seadogs and PotC you had a basic attack and block. PotC added the dodge key to the works which just made you jump backwards a bit each time you hit the key.

Then in AoP it got expanded with two or three new attacks such as heavy attack, thrust and parry. Plus you gained the left and right strafe.

Now in CoAS there is Slash, Smash, Thrust, Circular attack, Parry, Dodge/Parry and Block. Slash is left mouse button, smash is middle mouse, thrust is right mouse, circular is shift+left mouse, Parry is shift+middle mouse, dodge/parry is shift+right mouse and block is the space bar. Hopping backwards and sideways are accomplished automatically when you move left, right or backwards when you have your sword drawn.

World Map - Model the whole world, but have the major 'Sailing' areas in high detail where you use a direct sail type option. Then when you want to sail from say the Caribbean to the orient or European waters, I'm thinking that a map such as is used in CoAS now would be good.

Locations need to have no edges and the world needs to be more open, similar to oblivion, with loading screens only there when absolutely needed.

Just a few more ideas of mine....

Cap'n Drow

rabisyong · May 29, 2009

Sordid, thats how its done in Silent Hunter, you plot your course on a map, it tells you how long till you reach the end, when you make contact with another ship it lets you know and lets you decide what you want to do. Of course in a sailing game there is the wind to consider, so the Nav map would have to take that into consideration, maby having the wend bend your course lines, but it can be done.

I can see the point that making the Entire world would be difficult, so have theaters like in Empire: Total war...

World of Warcraft may not be beautiful in the same sense as other games, but it is detailed, and in a sea game, your only making the coastline, so it seems like it would be easier. Hell, this game is no masterpiece of detail...And yes, all the zones in warcraft look different...

by the way, how do you make quotes?

CapnSunk · May 29, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 29 2009, 07:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Sordid, thats how its done in Silent Hunter, you plot your course on a map, it tells you how long till you reach the end, when you make contact with another ship it lets you know and lets you decide what you want to do. Of course in a sailing game there is the wind to consider, so the Nav map would have to take that into consideration, maby having the wend bend your course lines, but it can be done.

I can see the point that making the Entire world would be difficult, so have theaters like in Empire: Total war...

World of Warcraft may not be beautiful in the same sense as other games, but it is detailed, and in a sea game, your only making the coastline, so it seems like it would be easier. Hell, this game is no masterpiece of detail...And yes, all the zones in warcraft look different...

by the way, how do you make quotes?</div>

Hit the quote key to reply by quoting that message, or can use quote tags by putting the word quote inside brackets, [], and /quote inside brackets after the message your quoting.

Anyways, yea sids pirates is probably what I'm thinking of, though I hated that game.

Silent Hunter you can, if you want, go in real time from anywhere to anywhere, but in my experiences with SH3, I rarely saw anything other than ocean or my own port, only enemy ports at night through the telescope. So terrain was a non factor. Much of AOP is done on land, so you would have to reskin vegetation, coastlines etc. I think it would either have to be a whole new company, with more resources available, to develop such a game. Something like that seems too difficult for modders with the tools available for AOP.

And I dont know why world of warcraft is even mentioned...I think its a great game, played for a long time in a top 5 raiding guild, but the graphics are horrible, the world isn't as big as everyone makes it out to be and the zones look different? Comparing one to another perhaps, but many many many models in that game are used over repeatedly throughout, some simply retextured if even that. Of games I have played the best looking most expansive worlds has to be Vanguard for an MMORPG or Oblivion for any game.

vassock · May 29, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 28 2009, 03:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Point of fact a naval captain could capture any ship his nation was at war with, no different than the letters of marque u get in every pirate game, and many a frigate captain became a rich man, and there is an increadible amount of freedom in this type of occupation.</div>They may be able to capture the ships, but I don't know if they are allowed to keep them. I figured they would become property of the British empire upon capture.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As for ur little squadron of fake pirate ships, why not have a real dignified national squadron of real men-of-war's? That seems more interesting. So for the fella who said give him a fleet of pirate ships and screw the RN, you should know that a: pirates do not operate in fleets (fleets being groups of more than 7 ships, squadrons less than 7) or squadrons, and even if they had, they would not be frigates(32-40 guns) so ur average Royal Navy squadron of frigates would eat them alive...RN for the win...</div>Pirates wouldn't attack a fully battle ready fleet, anyway, would they?<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I just dont get the huge intrest in pirates....they had little ships, they could not even think of setting about a 36'gun frigate, no chance for glory...and as for your selling of slaves, that detestable pratice was done by slave ships, not your average jo blow pirate, all other things considered, their ships wernt big enough.</div>Because pirates don't have to follow anyone's orders. And pirates owned their ships and anything they captured. They were also allowed to do anything they wanted, like execute/capture captains/crews, raid ports and keep the loot, trade contraband, etc...<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I defy anyone who has played silent hunter 3 or 4 to tell me a naval combat simulation using sailing ships would not be perfect using the silent hunter set up.</div>You're talking about two different things. First, you discuss the general atmosphere and role of the player, then you discuss tactical battle mechanics. The point is you can have an SH scenario with AoP mechanics, or AoP scenario with SH mechanics. SH mechanics would slow down battles a LOT, but it could be a good thing.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>With that set up, u could have a distinguished carrer and record, rising from a lutenant to admiral, and with all the spetacular REAL naval combat of the 1700-1800's, it would make for a much more enveloping game than some dinky pirate skirmishes in the West Indies. A naval game with all the oceans of the world open for u...</div>
Once again, I don't think that they just took a captain, gave him a ship, and told him to do whatever he wanted. I am assuming they gave him missions, like escorts, assassinations, negotiations, diplomatic meetings, etc... You'd have the freedom to determine how to accomplish each, but you'd still be out doing what the king tells you to do, and you would obviously be bound by the rules of war (except when dealing with pirates). SH3 missions generally had you go on patrol. A lot of the time, you encountered no ships.

rabisyong · May 29, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You're talking about two different things. First, you discuss the general atmosphere and role of the player, then you discuss tactical battle mechanics. The point is you can have an SH scenario with AoP mechanics, or AoP scenario with SH mechanics. SH mechanics would slow down battles a LOT, but it could be a good thing</div>

I was refering to the map of silent hunter 4, how u plot your course and such

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Once again, I don't think that they just took a captain, gave him a ship, and told him to do whatever he wanted. I am assuming they gave him missions, like escorts, assassinations, negotiations, diplomatic meetings, etc... You'd have the freedom to determine how to accomplish each, but you'd still be out doing what the king tells you to do, and you would obviously be bound by the rules of war (except when dealing with pirates). SH3 missions generally had you go on patrol. A lot of the time, you encountered no ships.</div>

Dont you do missions in this game? From governers? How is it any different. Except in my imaginary game, you would have a record of missions and how well you completed them would govern how fast you advance in rank. And they would be important missions, like burning a 74 in her harbor or chassing down a frigate thats attacking your whalers, capturing a french island fort...the time period is full of increadible combat stories between nations, far more so than the annals of pirate history.

Also, captains were not sent on assassination missions...but they did take a captain, give him a ship and a mission, but how he completed his mission was largley up to him, plus he had a great deal of freedom running his ship, on a ship the captain is the monarch, whilst by and large, a pirate captain had a lot less power over his crew than a Royal Navy captain.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>hey may be able to capture the ships, but I don't know if they are allowed to keep them. I figured they would become property of the British empire upon capture</div>

True, the captain didnt keep the ship, but they got prize money, amounting to almost the entire value of the ship, a man could make a hundred years pay in an afternoon if he captured a rich merchant ship.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Because pirates don't have to follow anyone's orders. And pirates owned their ships and anything they captured. They were also allowed to do anything they wanted, like execute/capture captains/crews, raid ports and keep the loot, trade contraband, etc..</div>

really, who gets their kicks out of trading contraband? And you cant execute any captains in this game, and as for taking forts, are there any stories of pirates taking forts in Europe or the Med...no, because those were REAL forts, that the REAL navy had to take care of...not those little dinky heaps of stone on the Spanish Main.

Thagarr · May 29, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rabisyong @ May 28 2009, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=323386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>and Thagarr, please do not mistake my not mentioning the handfull of cases where pirates had more than 1 ship as my not knowing enough about the period. If Mr. Morgan had 11 ships and 900 men in his fleet, that means around 80 men per ship, hardly a powerful fleet. The reason he was so sussesful on the Spanish Main is because he was attacking the SPANISH, not the Royal Navy, or French for that matter. The Spaniards built great ships, but they didnt sail them well. A Royal Navy frigate crews around 300 men, so 3 RN frigates would have more men then Morgans fleet of sloops. The fleet that was blockaiding Touloun (Napoleon's largest base in the Med) had over 10,000 men in it...And thats why pirates are lame compared to real navies.</div>

In your opinion mate. I am not questioning your knowledge of the period, I am questioning your understanding of pirates. I am well aware of how many men crew a Royal Navy Frigate, and what they were capable of, and you can damn well believe so were the pirates that sailed during that era. A lot of them had served in the Royal Navy. British frigates were indeed formidable, but they were not untouchable. Black Bart captured at least one British frigate during his pirate career. As was pointed out in a couple of early posts, pirates were not looking for fleet actions or head on confrontation with Royal Navy warships. They were after booty. To a pirate, speed was life, you needed a fast, maneuverable ship that was capable of being manned by as few crew as possible. What good is it to spy a fat, juicy prize on the horizon if you don't have the speed to overtake her? Lame to you is seen as a thing of beauty to others.

Stallion · May 29, 2009

@rabisyong:

Quick question here - are you trying to get something started? I'm just wondering why, if you so dislike pirates, you're even a member on a pirate-themed forum? Seems to me most of your posts have been about refuting everything that's been said in this thread, and about things the game doesn't do right. You do know you could just quit playing the game, right?

If I'm wrong about my theory about you, I apologize - but replying like a smartass isn't usually called for. It doesn't take all that much effort to word something more politely, ya know?

Fred Bob · May 29, 2009

Now Stallion, calm yersef thar, matey! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

" border="0" alt="yes.gif" /> Fred Bob be thinkin' dis 'ere be some purty stim'latin' discussion! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":huh" border="0" alt="huh.gif" /> Mo' beta den some o' de mindless spam done in some parts 'round 'ere! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

Cylon13 · May 29, 2009

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mellow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":|" border="0" alt="mellow.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":huh" border="0" alt="huh.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" /> .. <img src="http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1353_angry_smoking_red_smiley.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /> ......... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="8)" border="0" alt="cool.gif" />

why always the caribean?

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