Sea Battles

[Pieter Boelen]

Sea battles are certainly cool and should play a major part in the game, but sea battles would also become fairly boring after a time.
After all, what is the difference from one battle to the next?
So first of all, there should be enough chances for different things happening to make (almost) all sea battles interesting in one way or another.
Reasons for these could include:
- Player and enemy skill level
- Player and enemy officer skill level
- Player and enemy crew skill level
- Weather conditions and changing weather conditions
- Ballistics and chance (eg. a stray cannonball killing your helmsman or disabling the enemy's rudder)
  These events could be advantageous or not and you should be able to influence this by ordering your crew to aim for certain targets aboard the enemy ship.
- Strategic choices and being able to fool your enemies. I'm thinking of the Horatio Hornblower stories here, where frequently battles are won not by skill or by sheer numbers, but by outwitting the enemy. That should also be an option!
- There should be a seamless transistion between sea battles and boardings, if possible.
It would be cool if you could influence an ongoing boarding, for example, by continuing to fire cannonballs at the ship.
Also, especially if there's multiple ships involved, the other ships shouldn't suddenly "disappear" from the world as soon as boarding commences.
- Relatively free motions in boarding scenes, so you would be able to jump, climb up the rigging (and shoot at enemies from above), have swordfights with the enemy captain on a yardarm and possibly being able to use your surroundings.
Joined with the previous point, imagine during a boarding a stray cannonball hitting the main mast, which would come crashing down upon the deck!

But even with all these different events that could take place, doing just sea battles will get boring in the end.
Therefore there should also be enough variety in things to do ashore.

 

[LarryHookins]

<!--quoteo(post=311512:date=Apr 7 2009, 03:58 AM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ Apr 7 2009, 03:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sea battles are certainly cool and should play a major part in the game, but sea battles would also become fairly boring after a time.
After all, what is the difference from one battle to the next?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me count the ways.

I got into this game because Man O War 2 wouldn't run on Windows XP and I wanted to do some sea battles from the deck of my ship. Of course, I realize I'm in the minority on this. MoW2 didn't sell that well.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be cool if you could influence an ongoing boarding, for example, by continuing to fire cannonballs at the ship.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remind me never to sail with you as captain during a boarding. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But even with all these different events that could take place, doing just sea battles will get boring in the end.
Therefore there should also be enough variety in things to do ashore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.

Hook

 

[Pieter Boelen]

<!--quoteo(post=311527:date=Apr 7 2009, 12:19 PM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hook @ Apr 7 2009, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=311512:date=Apr 7 2009, 03:58 AM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ Apr 7 2009, 03:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sea battles are certainly cool and should play a major part in the game, but sea battles would also become fairly boring after a time.
After all, what is the difference from one battle to the next?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Let me count the ways.

I got into this game because Man O War 2 wouldn't run on Windows XP and I wanted to do some sea battles from the deck of my ship. Of course, I realize I'm in the minority on this. MoW2 didn't sell that well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I found <a href="http://www.game-over.com/reviews/pc/Man_of_War_2.html" target="_blank">this not-exactly-raving review</a> of that game, though the following excerpt sounds interesting to me:<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are two main modes of control, captain on deck or captain on bridge. On deck, you will give the orders for sails, cannons, directions, and basically everything else, while you’re free to walk around the ship and watch the battle. On bridge gives you control of the ship, so you will actually be doing the steering instead of commanding it. In this mode, the AI controls cannons and the rest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds a bit similar to this thought I had posted elsewhere:<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you're at sea, you would be able to switch to first person mode, in which you take on the role of the CAPTAIN instead of the SHIP! You would be able to walk around the ship yourself and interact with your officers and crew. You would also be able to take control of the helm and sail your ship in first person mode, climb up the rigging and spot oncoming ships yourself or take control of the ship's cannons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In any case, I can understand that some people would actually be very interested in just the ship battles, so for that reason I believe that those definitly should be really interesting in the game. It'd also be interesting if some proper fleet-to-fleet battles would be possible in a more "navy gameplay" kind of style for players who like that.

<!--quoteo(post=311527:date=Apr 7 2009, 12:19 PM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hook @ Apr 7 2009, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remind me never to sail with you as captain during a boarding. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="24.gif" /> I didn't say it was a <i>good</i> idea to do that. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/razz.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="razz.gif" />
But if the ships both remain sailable/controllable during boarding, it <i>would</i> be a possibility if you'd want. Maybe not the best example though. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />

 

[Keith]

I think the leadup to the fight is important, I remember playing the original Pirates! and getting to find out who was chasing you was great if it's a pirate or a hunter or a famous pirate, it gave some sort of individuality to each fight & and not just an eng/spa/frn/dutch gall/sloop/xbec etc.. You were actually fighting a captain of a ship.

You might want in the boarding to have the enemy captain on deck and if you can get through everyone and get him it's a quick end to the fighting or you just slash your way through everything.

You might want to have a history of the ships/captains you have come across and fight again, or pirates you have defeated (we're getting away from the actual fight i know).

Also the seamless transition from ship to board i'm not sure about, i usually took the time to reposition myself with the mouse and such for combat so it never really affected me.

 

[LarryHookins]

If nothing else that review shows the difference between the casual gamer and the hardcore gamer.

I have NO idea what he's talking about with the captain on deck/captain on bridge thing. You can turn some functions over to your second in command, but as far as I know, no one ever did that. You lost reputation for it. For the most part, sailing combat was very similar to PotC with some additions of commands to sail in formation, which were generally lousy.

And the difference between 1997 graphics and 1999 graphics! See what I meant earlier about some gamers prefer good graphics over good game play? Yeah, the graphics were sprites and voxels. Big deal.

I wasn't involved in this one, but once they played the battle of Trafalgar with 32 human players, each controlling one British ship against the AI.

Hook

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Indeed, the enemy captains having a history would certainly be interesting.
Plays into my "character personalities" suggestion I posted elsewhere as well.
It'd be good if the NPC would feel like "characters" instead of "polygons resembling characters".

I don't quite get your comment on the seamless transition from ship to boarding.
The below I posted elsewhere too, but it might better explain my thought of a seamless transition between ship and boarding:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you're at sea, you would be able to switch to first person mode, in which you take on the role of the CAPTAIN instead of the SHIP! You would be able to walk around the ship yourself and interact with your officers and crew. You would also be able to take control of the helm and sail your ship in first person mode, climb up the rigging and spot oncoming ships yourself or take control of the ship's cannons.

In a ship-to-ship battle, on your ship's deck, there would be debris flying everywhere and you could actually see your ship getting damage and your crew dying. When boarding enemy ships, you would see the hooks of your crew flying to the other ships and see the ships being pulled together. You would see your crew swinging through the air towards the other ship. And in first person mode, you would be able to join in this as well. You could stay aboard your own ship and let your crew do the fighting and only defend your ship or you could grab a hook or rope yourself and get onto the other ship and be on the forefront of the battle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main idea is that in first person mode, you would control the CAPTAIN and not the SHIP.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

<!--quoteo(post=311546:date=Apr 7 2009, 02:37 PM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hook @ Apr 7 2009, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have NO idea what he's talking about with the captain on deck/captain on bridge thing. You can turn some functions over to your second in command, but as far as I know, no one ever did that. You lost reputation for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->LOL! Seems like that reviewer wasn't really a fan of the concept to begin with.
I can't seem to gather whether he did like the first version, even though he mentions remembering playing it.

Strange though that he more-or-less made up the option of captain "on deck"/"on the bridge".
Though reading some PotC and AoP reviews, some of them also seem to mention things that I don't quite remember that way from the game itself.

<!--quoteo(post=311546:date=Apr 7 2009, 02:37 PM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hook @ Apr 7 2009, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the difference between 1997 graphics and 1999 graphics! See what I meant earlier about some gamers prefer good graphics over good game play? Yeah, the graphics were sprites and voxels. Big deal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->LOL; indeed. The graphics look pretty unimpressive either way. Though I know that used to be considered impressive in the past.
I've actually player "Captain Comic" on a black-green-white and "Civilization I" on DOS as well. I had the best time with those game, especially with Civilization.
The graphics weren't impressive, especially not compared to today's games, but the gameplay was GREAT!

Of course nowadays good graphics are a MUST for a truly succesful game.
But when is the last time you've played a game that had AND good graphics and REALLY good gameplay too?
The best memories of games that I have are all for games which didn't have impressive graphics, but they were great fun anyway.
Is there something about good graphics that prevents good gameplay or am I going to far into randomness here?

And why is it that "the original" movie/game is (almost) always considered best?
Should a sequel not be quite capable of bettering the original? Especially when it comes to games?

 

[LarryHookins]

The graphics weren't impressive in 1997 either, but you could run a large battle on a Pentium 90. A 50+ ship battle ran well on a Pentium 120. Imagine that many ships in PotC on even the most modern hardware. This is what you're giving up for state of the art graphics.

Hook

 

[Thomas the Terror]

I think that there should be some 'rare' occasions on which the powder magazine is hit and that the whole ships is blown apart. So that it not just sinks, but that it is blown to pieces. And when a ship catches fire, fire should also 'eat' the rigging and masts away. So that you can burn out a ship.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Sounds good to me. And hitting the powder magazine should also do damage to other ships when they're near.
So if the ship IS ablaze and you're in a boarding, you'd better get out of there yourself AND take your ship with you! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

Of course such events shouldn't be totally random; you should somewhat be able to predict it happening by seeing flames getting near to the powder magazine or even CAUSE it by actively targeting the powder magazine.
And while we're at it, there should be some crew firedrill involvement!
Which again gives me the idea that the crewmembers should actually be doing sensical things.

For example you have a certain amount of crew, a couple of whom are assigned to handling the sails and rigging (making/setting sails should NOT be instantenous anymore!), one helmsman and the rest of the crew for handling the cannons.
Then when crew is killed, the game would need to check in which area the cannonballs hit and kill of crew in those different departments.
For example, if a cannonball hits near a cannon, your cannon crew would decrease. But if the ball would hit near the wheel, you might lose your helmsman.
If the second event comes to pass, you will temporarily lose control of your ship until another crewmember takes the place of the old helmsman.
This crewmember then either decreases the available crew for the cannons or for handling the rigging.

In walking around mode, you would be able to give orders on which aspect of shiphandling to prioritize.
For example, if the helmsman is killed, should the replacement crewman come from the cannon crew or the rigging crew?
And if a lot of cannon crew is killed, should automatically some of the rigging crew be diverted to that? And how many?
You would be able to choose this through your orders, but if you've set "values" that you're happy with once, you don't need to do this all the time.

You might've noticed I would like to see some actual leadership skills to come into play in the game.
Rather than just being "a number", you'd need to make some tough choices yourself!

 

[Bathtub-pirate]

Hey guys - sorry for the thread necromancy. But I have an idea.

How about that one can determine which guns fire and which not, as soon a a ship features more than one deck of cannons? In naval warfare in the age of sail one big factor was if the lower battery deck could even fire or not, when in troubled water. For opening the lower hatches could easily result in flooding the ship, when the sea was troubled and the water line came dangerously close to said hatches. It also can apply when the ship is fully loaded and lies deep in the water. This would add to the realism of fights and could even result in profoundly weakening a ship of the line, when in stormy weather and confronting single deck fregattes or corvettes.

 

[Armada]

We did discuss this in the Ideas and Brainstorming forum, though I can't remember exactly where right now.
It was in one of the discussions relating to user interface design, I think.