WIP 18 gun Naval Brig, 1797

Captain Armstrong · Apr 22, 2012

I decided it was time to post something of my latest project.

I had originally intended to wait until the Revolutionnaire, Volage, and Prince de Neufchatel were in POTC, but Craiggo seems to be busy with other things right now and in the meantime I finished the entire hull for this ship. Not much is known about this brig, called the Hassan Bashaw, she was built in 1797 in Philadelphia by the son of the Constitution's designer, Samuel Humphreys. The vessel was built as a 'tribute' vessel for the dey of Algiers, and in return for this ship and some other small cruisers, he would release american hostages. the brig proved unusually fast, but beyond that few specifics can be found about her sailing quailities.(she was sailed to Algiers and handed over, so the americans only had one voyage in her) However, her lines and dimensions are nearly identical to the brig USS Syren of 1803 http://www.shipsofscale.com/gallery/cpassaro/syren/index.html
Anyways, this ship should be able to replace nearly all versions of the stock brig :cheeky

please take a look at it and make sure that I got the rigging right? (note that running rigging is not included)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/64339105@N08/6954873236/in/photostream

Post Captain · Apr 22, 2012

Excuse me while I go find something...

Ahh... Here it is:

The sail plan looks just right to me. Remember that the t'gallantmast shrouds end right above the t'gallant, and not above the royal. Other than that, you seem to be pretty familiar with rigging now.
Edit: you may have forgotten the futtock shrouds (see parts of the ship), but it's a little hard to tell.
One thin I did notice was that there should be pins on that rail going around the mainmast. That was generally where the lifts (holding the yards up when the sails weren't set) and squares'l sheets (pulling bottom corners of the sail down) were led to.

Captain Armstrong · Apr 22, 2012

Hahaha I actually laughed out loud at that, I'm glad you like it!

: Youre right that I forgot to put the futtock shrouds in the sailplan, but I planned to model them anyways :onya

same with the t'gallant shrouds, now that I look at it I'm not sure I even drew them on, but I'll be sure to end them right above the t'gallant :yes

what do you think of the staysails? It seemed like they would be some of the most commonly used ones

Post Captain · Apr 22, 2012

I definitely agree with your decision to exclude the main stays'l. We get a lot of use out of Pilgrim's spencer, which is in the same position, but since it is bent to a gaff the dynamics are completely different.
I've actually only seen a main t'gallant stays'l set on a brig in earnest (not in a parade) once, and they are only useful in limited conditions. However, I think adding it was a good idea for aesthetics and because all the other brigs in the game have them. I like the t'gallantmast stays'l's shape, by the way.

(you may have missed the bit about the pin rail in my last post; I edited it in right before you posted)

Captain Armstrong · Apr 22, 2012

Thanks! I'm glad I dont have to change the sailplan then :onya

Ah yes I didnt see that about the pin rail, I meant to put some in there originally because it is shown on the plan, but I got a bit worried about poly count so I held off. I'll put them on though, they wont add much. :keith

Armada · Apr 22, 2012

That's a pretty nice brig you've got, there. I can definitely see her working well in the last two game periods. :keith

Some minor nitpicking: the capstan looks slightly too big to me, given the small deck space.
Also, shouldn't a vessel this size have just one wheel, as opposed to two?
Oh, and some of your cannons have gone black. You need to 'Set vertex normals' on them again.

Regarding the stock brig, I'm in two minds about what to do with it.
One the one hand, I might say your new vessel could replace the stock one in the last two periods.
However, the RN_Brig and US_Brig47 have some nice weathered textures, which newer models tend to lack.

Also worth considering is that the stock brig may have been loosely based on the Russian brig Mercury (since the link goes to the same site where I found out about the Rossiya).
This gives us a reference to use to upgrade the ship in future, in which case I could easily see her appearing alongside your new model, instead of being replaced.

Captain Armstrong · Apr 22, 2012

Armada said:
That's a pretty nice brig you've got, there. I can definitely see her working well in the last two game periods.

Some minor nitpicking: the capstan looks slightly too big to me, given the small deck space.
Also, shouldn't a vessel this size have just one wheel, as opposed to two?
Oh, and some of your cannons have gone black. You need to 'Set vertex normals' on them again.

Regarding the stock brig, I'm in two minds about what to do with it.
One the one hand, I might say your new vessel could replace the stock one in the last two periods.
However, the RN_Brig and US_Brig47 have some nice weathered textures, which newer models tend to lack.

Also worth considering is that the stock brig may have been loosely based on the Russian brig Mercury (since the link goes to the same site where I found out about the Rossiya).
This gives us a reference to use to upgrade the ship in future, in which case I could easily see her appearing alongside your new model, instead of being replaced.

Thanks! I suppose the capstan is a bit big, i'll scale it down a bit. I'll set vertex normals for the cannons right away, that was bugging me but I didnt know how to fix it :urgh Looking at the Syren and the Mercury models, they both have single wheels, so you are probably right on that :onya

I dont know why you wouldn't want two wheels thoug, seems like it could be useful if one was hit by a cannonball :keith

Hmm, well the mercury was built in 1819, so is definately a later period ship, but it is a stock ship and though it is better than some, it still doesnt match up to newer ships in terms of detailed and accurate modeling. Are RN_Brig and US_Brig47 versions of the stock brig? maybe they could be kept in if they are the best versions, with reduced encounter chances? (at least until the Mercury upgrade happens)

Armada · Apr 22, 2012

Captain Armstrong said:
Hmm, well the mercury was built in 1819, so is definately a later period ship, but it is a stock ship and though it is better than some, it still doesnt match up to newer ships in terms of detailed and accurate modeling. Are RN_Brig and US_Brig47 versions of the stock brig? maybe they could be kept in if they are the best versions, with reduced encounter chances? (at least until the Mercury upgrade happens)

I'm just thinking about variety, that's all. An upgraded stock brig alongside your new one would make things more interesting that only using the new one.
However, you have a good point about the encounter chances. I'd like to encounter the stock brigs less often than your new one, of course.

Captain Armstrong · Apr 22, 2012

Armada said:
I'm just thinking about variety, that's all. An upgraded stock brig alongside your new one would make things more interesting that only using the new one.
However, you have a good point about the encounter chances. I'd like to encounter the stock brigs less often than your new one, of course.

Very true, and the Vincejo is also similar so that makes it even more interesting :keith

and thanks, me too

any idea how many versions of the stock brig are currently in game?

Post Captain · Apr 22, 2012

Armada said:
Some minor nitpicking: the capstan looks slightly too big to me, given the small deck space.
Also, shouldn't a vessel this size have just one wheel, as opposed to two?

I think the capstan is just right for the vessel... the only thing you'd have to consider is whether the capstan bars will strike the helm when they are shipped and turning. Decks of sloops of war were famous for their lack of space.
As for the double wheel... A merchantman of that size wouldn't usually have had a double wheel like that, but I believe it is plausible that there would be one in a man-of-war. I've read accounts with similar vessels having double helms. Sometimes it can take a lot of force to move the wheel, and in actions where fast maneuvering is required the extra man power at the helm would come in handy. It's also useful to have multiple people at the helm in case one or more are killed.

Edit: I do have two more nitpicks, and both are minor details that may actually make the model look worse and increase the poly count. I'm not a modeller (yet) so I have no idea.

1: Hammock netting where appropriate (usually covered with taught white canvas after being filled with hammocks)
2: This one is more stylistic, but it was not unusual to have chafe protection where the anchor's fluke rests on the cap rail in the form of a sword mat. (A mat made of old rope. You can see one in the windy sail behavior video in my parts of a ship thread.)

Captain Armstrong · Apr 22, 2012

moved the wheel back (it actually was farther forward than in the plans anyway) so the capstan bars would clear it, I also scaled down the capstan just a tad and put the pins in the rail around the mainmast
http://www.flickr.com/photos/64339105@N08/6957773474/in/photostream

I was thinking of adding two more guns in the ports right forward, because the Hassan Bashaw apparently mounted 22 guns, and that is they only place they will fit. it looks a bit cramped, but they just might fit http://www.flickr.com/photos/64339105@N08/7103843977/in/photostream

I have no Idea how to do hammock netting, it would take too many polygons to model, but it can apparently be textured on (like on the movie suprise) not sure how that was done though

Armada · Apr 22, 2012

Captain Armstrong said:
any idea how many versions of the stock brig are currently in game?

I think it's just the four of them; the two original versions, plus the RN and US variants.
The former two can be encountered with any nation at any point between 1600 and 1830, which probably needs adjusting for historical accuracy.
The latter two are nation-specific, with the US version restricted to the last two periods, but the RN version is another 1600-1830 case.

I've also realised that the stock versions are probably more suitable for pirates than your new brig, considering their weathered textures, so that's one extra use for them.

Post Captain · Apr 22, 2012

I actually think Armada was right. That capstan does look a little better small. I think if you found out who did the original netting and asked him how do do it (assuming he/she/it is still active) it might improve the outward appearance of the vessel. Of course you don't have to actually model the netting in. During the daytime most vessels would have them packed with hammocks covered by taught sailcloth behind the netting. I also read that sailcloth was sometimes placed over the entire assembly, including the stanchions, and pulled drum taught. That might make thins easier. That's definitely the method I'm planning to use when I do this schooner, assuming I succeed at my attempts on Pilgrim and the chalupa: (the one I have ludicrously detailed plans for. I got the over-$150 kit in Pilgrim's annual auction for five dollars. Lucky me. I almost snapped up a merchant brig for ten dollars, too)

Armada · Apr 22, 2012

Captain Armstrong said:
I was thinking of adding two more guns in the ports right forward, because the Hassan Bashaw apparently mounted 22 guns, and that is they only place they will fit. it looks a bit cramped, but they just might fit http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream

I have no Idea how to do hammock netting, it would take too many polygons to model, but it can apparently be textured on (like on the movie suprise) not sure how that was done though

Yeah, that's very tight. Maybe just move the rope tethers around a bit and you'll get away with it.
My only concern is that the orientation of the extra guns is somewhere between a broadside and a bow chaser (in the game's sense), but it's neither one nor the other.
Do you reckon, with a bit of moving around, that they could be positioned as chasers? That would add some gameplay value, at least.

About the hammock netting. The nets themselves are easy enough as flat planes using a netting texture like many high-detail models.
However, the folded hammocks are an immense waste of polygons if done in the same way as the movie Surprise model.
To see how they're done, open the model in GM viewer and press the [5] key to overlay the wireframe. Press [6] to return to normal view.
If you do decide to incorporate the hammocks, I strongly suggest you make a simplified version.

Post Captain · Apr 22, 2012

Thankfully, the sail cloth cover would have eliminated any visible folding. That might make the entire thing more viable. The Surprise should also technically have canvas covering like that over the hammocks.

Edit: You can see what I mean in this painting, "Flying Kites" by Geoff Hunt. It's a little small, but there's a large version on the cover of The Frigate Surprise by Hunt and Lavery.

Captain Armstrong · Apr 22, 2012

yeah I will adjust the rope tethers, but I wanted to get the right angle first, I'll try for a bow chaser :onya

hmm I just see the flat portions where the netting is textured on in my file, maybe I accidentally deleted the hammoks themselves :shrug

at any rate, hammock netting just seems like a royal pain to me, and seing as the hull alone is about 57000 tris, im not sure that they are worth adding in.

just a side note, but It appears takeda-one posted the plans of the mercury awhile back
http://forum.piratesahoy.net/index.php/topic/15469-jack-aubreys-first-own-ship-the-hms-sophie/

Post Captain · Apr 22, 2012

(See above. I edited right when you posted.)

That might make the process a little more simple... It'll just turn out as a white canvas box running the length of the cap rail.

Using the guns as chasers would, in real life, not leave any room for their recoil, preventing them from being reloaded. It could work with some adjustment, I guess. I would say keep them angled like that.

Armada · Apr 23, 2012

Captain Armstrong said:
just a side note, but It appears takeda-one posted the plans of the mercury awhile back
http://forum.pirates...the-hms-sophie/

Interesting! It's funny what you can find buried on this forum.
I think tomorrow I'll start a new thread about stock ship replacements. I've found a couple more real ships which I think may have inspired some of the stock ships,
so it will be useful to gather it all together. Plus, I won't have to hijack this thread with stock ship discussion. :wp

Post Captain said:
Using the guns as chasers would, in real life, not leave any room for their recoil, preventing them from being reloaded. It could work with some adjustment, I guess. I would say keep them angled like that.

The way I see it, there's not much room for recoil in that tight space anyway. And then there's the game's lack of actual recoil...
In the end I guess it's down to whatever's easiest to do. Chasers would be favourable in a gameplay sense, but if they can't be fitted in, then it's not a major disadvantage.

Captain Armstrong · Apr 23, 2012

yeah so really the only way the gun will fit is as it is right now, if I try to make it a chaser there is not only no room for recoil, but it would shoot away the anchor with the first shot. :urgh If I try to angle it more like a broadside gun, it overlaps with the assembly where the bowsprit ends, and the recoil would smash it into the stovepipe anyway. I could just leave it out? the Syren which was actually a foot longer didnt thave a gun in this position, despite there being a gun port there. IT was likely intended as a bridle port, to make handling the anchors easier and possibly to be used as a chase port if the foremost broadside gun was stuck through it (which would leave plenty of room for recoil) what does everyone think, should I keep it as it or remove it entirely?

Armada · Apr 23, 2012

Captain Armstrong said:
IT was likely intended as a bridle port, to make handling the anchors easier and possibly to be used as a chase port if the foremost broadside gun was stuck through it (which would leave plenty of room for recoil)

How about this idea? Remove the extra two guns you originally proposed, and move the foremost broadside guns into chaser positions?
You might need to move the anchors slightly to avoid unnecessary damage, of course.

It's really down to whether you want chasers or not, I guess.
I'd be more obliged to remove the extra guns in any case, just because their orientation doesn't really work in the game's sense.

WIP 18 gun Naval Brig, 1797

Shipbuilding Coordinator

Seamanship Advisor

Shipbuilding Coordinator

Seamanship Advisor

Shipbuilding Coordinator

Sea Dog

Shipbuilding Coordinator

Sea Dog

Shipbuilding Coordinator

Seamanship Advisor

Shipbuilding Coordinator

Sea Dog

Seamanship Advisor

Sea Dog

Seamanship Advisor

Shipbuilding Coordinator

Seamanship Advisor

Sea Dog

Shipbuilding Coordinator

Sea Dog