Feature Request Seventh Age: Steam Power

[Robert Nutter]

Ahoy ye all !

So I know this has been floating around here for a good while now, and that it could be a pretty ambitious addition to build 15; not to mention that it's still very low priority. But as some of you have probably already noticed, I've taken this idea and gotten all enthusiastic for it.

Wouldn't it be great to start the game in the early days of sail, and end with it's bloody demise? Ships of the line could have some new competition for supremacy of the seas...​

Historically, the Crimea is the only conflict in which this 'cross-tech' conflict happened on any kind of large, 'total war' scale...yes, there was the odd skirmish or war in which a technologically superior power would subdue a less technological power with blunt naval force throughout the Victorian period (The Opium war comes to mind for one), but for the most part the early to mid 19th century was comparatively quiet fleet engagement-wise following Trafalgar and by the time larger wars did start to take place, like the civil war in the US, most major powers had at least a few steam engines or armoured hulls at their disposal. That's what makes this such an exciting proposition: the 'what-if' potential is endless. And I'm sure many ship-buffs will agree, it's an exciting period to implement from a modelling and texturing context too.


After discussing briefly with Pieter, the only way this can actually happen as a whole new age is probably to have a good selection of Steamships to build the rest of the age from. It'd certainly wrap up the Build Mod nicely (or even open the doors more for further versions to build upon) and the addition of Steam brings a lot of interesting tactical and navigational tidbits. I don't pretend to know how much scripting/modding would be involved in this...just that it would be a worthy project should it be taken up. I'm furthermore thinking it could potentially attract a new player-base; which is obviously not the goal but it's certainly a positive side-effect.

Essay over, I've started this thread to both garner interest and possible collaboration. Over the next month or two, I'm going to be posting various images and documentation which can be put up for possible implementation. This doesn't have to be taken seriously at this stage as I know it's extremely low priority right about now, but it'd be great to get an idea of the interest this has and indeed, if steamships are destined to be stuck in the sixth age!

Thoughts?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Amount of scripting required would be doable. A fully functional steamship is already in the game, but she burns planks rather than coal.
Adding coal would require one interface picture to be added with a minimum of coding.

At the moment the speed/engine power of the steamships is pretty much hardcoded because there is only one.
If more are added, this should be moved to ships_init.c instead. That is not so hard either.
But the functional support is there and working.

The game doesn't actually understand ships without sails as the steamships currently in there are "hybrid" ones and would still operate mostly under sail.
A fully engine-powered ship may therefore require more experimenting and could require some "creative solutions" and less-than-perfect work-arounds.
We'd probably have to fake it so the game still uses it as a sailing boat; the player just wouldn't really notice.

Other work to add another period:
- Defining the new period (simple code work; though adding it to ALL ships in ships_init.c would be a rather large and repetitive task)
- Adding period flags (texture work)
- Possibly create different soldier skins (texture work again)
- And more texture work to add any new "guest nations"

But we've added six periods already; a seventh one is certainly possible.
And we've added a nation before (America), so more can also be done.

Wouldn't it be great to start the game in the early days of sail, and end with it's bloody demise? Ships of the line could have some new competition for supremacy of the seas...

That part isn't happening. You'd have to play for hundreds of years straight.

And because that is rather pointless, the time periods don't change during the game and I don't intend to add that.
You've got the choice at the start of the game and if you want to play in another period, then it is time for a new game.

 

[Robert Nutter]

My first idea for a ship could be the 1852 'Light of the Nation' (AKA Kanko Maru). Historically, she was actually used against Carracks and older gen ships so she could fit perfectly at the beginning of a Seventh Age or even right at the end of the Sixth. A very significant steamship as she pretty much represented Asia's first foray into the development of a modern navy. This is a jackass-barque rig with four heavy calibre guns (for POTC purposes, 1x 42iber Long Guns and 3x 68iber Carronades...unless more have been added since Build 13). Players of Fall of the Samurai will recognise she also appeared in Shogun 2 as a playable ship, though I'm proposing a much more accurate model than that one which for start, has six guns! She's also wooden hulled, underpowered and simple enough to be incorporated earlier...meaning most larger sixth age ships will have a fair chance against her.

There's a perfect replica in existence which would make her easier to model from reference material.

View attachment 24330

EDIT: Pieter, good to hear it's doable...I was using some poetic license with that but you get what I mean...people can have campaigns from the first to the last and so on. It would be great to include a good selection of older ships from the sixth age..that would be realistic historically, as Steamers took a good 50 or so years to become popular and economically viable even with the larger powers. A lot of texture work would indeed be needed, but I wouldn't say it's *vital*...iron should be easy enough to simulate for the ships (famous last words...) and we could always use existing wood textures with new UWs, no? As for the game not understanding ships without sails...most steamships outside of coastal monitors and specialised boats do have at least partial rigs, though smaller gunboats generally don't...is that going to be a problem when i try incorporating my current project, which is mastless? I could add a mast but adding yards, rigging and sails may ruin the historical element...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Nice ship. Though I've got to admit she seems relatively similar to the steam frigates (based on the USS Constitution model) that are currently already in the game.
In what ways is this one substantially different? If not so much, you may want to consider another one as starting point to increase the variety of steam vessels.
Your idea of a truly small steam gunboat seemed like a good one.

That being said, she does seem to have a very sleek hull. Maybe one hull could be made with a steam version and a "clipper rig".
Then we'd have two for the price of one.

for POTC purposes, 1x 42iber Long Guns and 3x 68iber Carronades...unless more have been added since Build 13

Just so you know, PotC doesn't support multiple calibres on the same ship.

It would be great to include a good selection of older ships from the sixth age..that would be realistic historically, as Steamers took a good 50 or so years to become popular and economically viable even with the larger powers.

Of course! I'd imagine that most ships would remain sailing ones; just with steam ones being common enough to be noticed and used by the player in the game.

A lot of texture work would indeed be needed, but I wouldn't say it's *vital*...iron is easy enough to simulate for the ships and we could always use existing wood textures with new UWs, no?

Retexturing existing ships and replacing their wood with an iron texture is easy enough from a "how to do it" point of view.
Getting that to look good requires some more artistry though....

 

[Robert Nutter]

Nice ship. Though I've got to admit she seems relatively similar to the steam frigates (based on the USS Constitution model) that are currently already in the game.
In what ways is this one substantially different? If not so much, you may want to consider another one as starting point to increase the variety of steam vessels.
Your idea of a truly small steam gunboat seemed like a good one.

I agree, and was a little concerned about that myself...again, this is my bias due to not being able to play the game yet :/ Aggrevating....but from the shots I've seen of the ships already in the game, this one would have a few notable differences...for a start, she's too under-armed to be an effective frigate (I think she was originally a coastal corvette) so is probably smaller too. The issue with gunboats is, now that you mention it, the fact they don't have any rigging...would the game accept that?

being said, she does seem to have a very sleek hull. Maybe one hull could be made with a steam version and a "clipper rig".
Then we'd have two for the price of one.

That's a great idea! I think she's unique enough to be incorporated, as she has an interesting deck layout and the rounded paddle cover gives her a sleek feel...

Just so you know, PotC doesn't support multiple calibres on the same ship.

Didn't think so, is that an engine limitation?

existing ships and replacing their wood with an iron texture is easy enough from a "how to do it" point of view.
Getting that to look good requires some more artistry though....

Of course, I would never have belittled what's involved, but I've been having some pretty good luck with using basic bump maps on my Monitor to split the light and I'm sure there are ways we can get it looking good in game if it won't support that

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The issue with gunboats is, now that you mention it, the fact they don't have any rigging...would the game accept that?

Dunno. We'd have to find out.
In the worst case, we'll set her up with invisible masts and sails and give her the steam engine to go with it.

That's a great idea! I think she's unique enough to be incorporated, as she has an interesting deck layout and the rounded paddle cover gives her a sleek feel...

For reference, this is the one we've got (in several paint schemes):

Didn't think so, is that an engine limitation?

Pretty much. And if it isn't, the amount of work to change that as well would be absolutely NOT funny.

 

[Robert Nutter]

She's definitely different enough from that one, which looks pretty heavily armed and full rigged? I see the Kanko as more of a low-budget trade steamer than a full-on warship, at least in the context of POTC. I can't see her taking down any frigates soon with those 4 guns...

Here's an idea: I'll make my little gunboat and we'll try invisible rigging...that's starightforward enough to do from a modelling perspective of course but will locators etc still work? As for the Kanko, I'll start on her too so we have a couple to play around with...I'll see if I can make a hull for her and if not, we'll go with your idea She'd be about the size of the vanilla corvette I think in terms of length and height; so fairly small. As we'll need to nail this stuff if there are going to be loads of them!

Do the paddles/screws turn at this point?

VERY impressed you've got the smoke and dynamics sorted...I would not believe it was possible in this game if I hadn't seen it

EDIT: Is the smoke coming from a funnel on that model? As localisation may be important for something with a higher stack...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

She's definitely different enough from that one, which looks pretty heavily armed and full rigged? I see the Kanko as more of a low-budget trade steamer than a full-on warship, at least in the context of POTC. I can't see her taking down any frigates soon with those 4 guns...

I wonder how that would work for gameplay. Using steam power is of course expensive because of... well, engines.
Giving the real-world economical purpose to the steam ships may prove another interesting challenge.

I'll make my little gunboat and we'll try invisible rigging...that's starightforward enough to do from a modelling perspective of course but will locators etc still work?

Why wouldn't they work?

Do the paddles/screws turn at this point?

Nope. I don't think we'll ever be able to do that with this game engine.
But that water splash effect does move and gives the impression of the paddlewheels actually doing something, even if they're stationary.
Actually... it isn't so much that the wheels don't move; it's more that they aren't there at all. Only their "cover" was modeled.

Is the smoke coming from a funnel on that model? As localisation may be important for something with a higher stack...

It's trying to come from the funnel. There are (X,Y,Z) coordinates defined in the ships_init.c file that define the position.
But I had to use a crazy trick to sort-of counter the weird effect you see in that screenshot. I think it is better when you try her in the game now.

Also worth noting that at the time that screenshot was taken (several years ago),
she truly WAS still a sailing ship and only the "BestPoint" and "ClosestPoint" were modified to "fake" her steamship behaviour.
That is no longer the case! There is a completely separate "steam engine" and you can sail straight into the wind, making a good couple of knots with the sails fully furled.
You can also decide to use wind power only when the weather allows as the engine is 100% independent from the sails.

 

[Thagarr]

Not to dissuade you from your current track, but if is different your looking for, this HERE steam boat was quite different!

 

[Robert Nutter]

Yeah I thought that too...but I think the benefits of being able to sail anywhere and anyhow you want outweighs that...4 very heavy guns and better-than-sloop flexibility must count for something? It would make a great entry level steamship and it could be implemented as kind of a 'prototype', so there's only one available per campaign? That should offset the false economy. The way I see it, we'll end up with a gap between tiny gun boats and frigates otherwise.

That's good about the smoke...and I'm just trying to decide whether or not my gunboat should have a screw instead of a paddle...would certainly make it better to implement but may reduce historical realism a little if we put it into the 6th age...what do you guys think? Stick with an early one or just see what i can do and try and find a way of incorporating?

Thagarr...cool! I always loved ships that were basically just floating batteries and not much else. Could be a special quest reward? As with 20 big guns and an engine she'd out-class anything that early on...

 

[Robert Nutter]

Good specific models:

HMS Euryalus(1853); Warship; Frigate; Screw - National Maritime Museum

 

[Thagarr]

If I recall correctly, many eons ago, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth... I think someone had a similar idea to add her, or a ship very similar, to the original Build Mod. She could definitely be used as a quest specific item or goal, though it wouldn't really be very practical as an every day vessel. Maybe a quest where the she would be used to stop a fleet from blockading a harbor or something, with Pieter's steam frigate as the quest reward?

It's also a good way to get those big ass guns in to the game! There is another modelling project for you mate!

 

[Robert Nutter]

Yeah she'd be a great fit for the end of the 6th age or even beginning of seventh. I'm definitely interested in modelling her...and using her to defend a fort or vice versa would be good. Possibly putting the steam frigate as available to buy could be reward enough though? As let's face it, I don't know her stats but she looks like a beast just for doing one quest! But back to the Demologos, No cargo space and minimal speed but tonnes of strength and armament to match! That'd do the trick. Do you think this would be in the 6th age still or in the 7th if it were carried through?

I have a small list for modelling now

Another possible project for the future: I have no historic info as of yet but she's a beaut...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Word to the wise: You may want to focus one thing at a time.
That steam powered gun boat sounds like a good spot.

If you add paddles, the simplest approach is to not let the wheels be seen at all.
That makes it quite easy. And of course you could make variations with and without if that seems appropriate.

For now, any such ships added will, by necessity, go into the sixth period.
They could appear at random or be limited to quest use.
If need be, we can easily add some simple quests with them as reward.

@Thagarr: While I did indeed do the supporting coding for the steam frigate, I wouldn't claim her to be "mine".
It was a team effort.

 

[Robert Nutter]

Of course...I wouldn't dream of doing all this at once! Hopefully I can have the boat done by sometime in January though...have a pretty clear idea of what I want from her model-wise. I'll probably do a single central paddlewheel...they were common to very early steamers and it'd be completely hidden regardless of swell and sinking animation.

I think it'll fit well into the sixth period as a quest reward, and I'm sure people with lower-tier characters would love having a 42-iber to play with from such a fast little ship!

Talking of big ass guns, Thagarr, how hard would it be to add a 70-iber long gun into the build? I don't so much mean for the sixth age as it'd be horribly OP, but for later steamers with few guns that'd be great...and historical.

This aside, I'll post some more ideas on here once I can get online again, which may not be until i'm back home now...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Of course...I wouldn't dream of doing all this at once! Hopefully I can have the boat done by sometime in January though...have a pretty clear idea of what I want from her model-wise. I'll probably do a single central paddlewheel...they were common to very early steamers and it'd be completely hidden regardless of swell and sinking animation.

Sounds like a plan!

I think it'll fit well into the sixth period as a quest reward, and I'm sure people with lower-tier characters would love having a 42-iber to play with from such a fast little ship!

There is of course a Gunboat in the game already. With one cannon on the bow and two on each side.
They're normally relatively small ones, but you can get Vanderdecken to install huge, near-overpowered ones on her instead.
That makes for quite some fun too!

Talking of big ass guns, Thagarr, how hard would it be to add a 70-iber long gun into the build? I don't so much mean for the sixth age as it'd be horribly OP, but for later steamers with few guns that'd be great...and historical.

Not hard at all.

 

[Thagarr]

Possibly putting the steam frigate as available to buy could be reward enough though? As let's face it, I don't know her stats but she looks like a beast just for doing one quest!

That would depend on the quest I suppose, if it is a long and painful one, the player deserves something tangible as a payoff! I think the Devlin Opera has a great start for a PITA quest, and i think she would be a fitting reward for that one. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or the modding skills to make that a reality.

As for the time period for the Demologos, I think she fits just nicely at the end of 6, it is the time frame that she was developed in, after all. As for the big ass guns, Pieter would have a much better idea of how easy they would be to get in to the game. As long as your not trying for this one :

In Jules Verne's novel From the Earth to the Moon, a giant columbiad space gun is constructed in Tampa, Florida after the American Civil War, with the purpose of striking the Moon. Although the cannon is originally designed to fire a hollow aluminum ball, a bullet-shaped projectile is later designed with the purpose of carrying people. It is now known that neither concept is viable using such a cannon.

This fictional columbiad is made of cast iron six feet thick, is 900 feet (274 m) long, and has a bore with a diameter of nine feet. It weighs more than 68,000 short tons (61,700 metric tons or 60,700 long tons) and is therefore cast directly in the ground, rather than being mounted on rails. The cannon is then loaded with 400,000 pounds (180,000 kg) of "pyroxyle" (gun cotton) to give the projectile sufficient velocity to leave Earth's atmosphere and reach the Moon.[7]

A vastly scaled down depiction of this fictional cannon was built as a launch cannon for the French version of Space Mountain at Disneyland Paris. Originally named "Space Mountain: De la Terre à la Lune", the ride was loosely based on Verne's novel, and the attraction's exterior was built using a Verne-era retro-futuristic influence.

@Thagarr: While I did indeed do the supporting coding for the steam frigate, I wouldn't claim her to be "mine".
It was a team effort.

Yes, I know several people helped with her, I even helped a bit, but the fact is, she would not be in the game at all without you making it happen! That is MY opinion and I aint changing it!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That would depend on the quest I suppose, if it is a long and painful one, the player deserves something tangible as a payoff! I think the Devlin Opera has a great start for a PITA quest, and i think she would be a fitting reward for that one. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or the modding skills to make that a reality.

I don't know whay "PITA" is, but I do know that the Devlin Opera is set in Early Explorers, aka. the period where you would most definitely NOT expect to see anything steam-powered.

It is easy enough to make a steamboat buyable. In fact, the current ones already are.

 

[Thagarr]

PITA = Pain in the ass

Yup, I am aware of that, but I figure the way that quest was started, all that running around and talking to different people all over the place, it would have taken quite a while to finish ...if it ever actually gets finished that is. I am just throwing ideas out there, feel free to completely ignore them.

 

[Robert Nutter]

These are all great points regarding the quest reward...I should probably leave it until I can actually play again though before I make further comments on this

If it's just a thing of coding it in and adding a thumbnail, I think a new 'breed' of guns would be great in a 7th age. It'd certainly validate ships like the Kanko Maru more as corvettes/early cruisers and would give teeth to my gunboat against later opponents I wasn't aware there was one already...last time I played (in build 13) I know the Tartane had a gunboat version..but I think that was it in terms of very small boats with guns really! With steam comes far greater high speed manourverability...so perhaps that could be it's USP?

EDIT: I'm going to propose I model the gunboat with a muzzle loader and breech loading version...so it can be applied to various ages in slightly different guises if that's possible?