A suggestion about sailing

Pieter Boelen · Sep 24, 2006

The "class" system would only apply to officers and not to the player, of course. The idea is to make an obvious distinction between the different officer types. At the moment it doesn't really matter which officer you use, because they all can do everything anyway. You can hire a level 1 gunner at the start of the game, then put all his level-up points into sailing and he would function as a navigator. He'd still be called a gunner though, so that wouldn't make sense.

What about this idea: We DO use the officer class system, but you can talk to the officer and change his profession that way. For example: You hire the level 1 gunner I mention above. He will work aboard your ship as a gunner and any level-up points he receives can not be put into the sailing skill, because he is a gunner. But you can talk to the officer and tell him that you will use him as a navigator instead. After you did that, his class will be changed into navigator and you will be able to increase his sailing skills. However, his cannon skills will NOT improve the party skill anymore, because, although he might BE a good gunner, he wouldn't currently be ACTIVE as a gunner.

This would bring up the idea of the "active officer type". An officer can have all skills, but he will only USE the skills he needs for his profession. And you can change that profession through dialog.

Why shouldn't skills be cumulative? You shouldn't think of it as "I am a decent gunner, and he is a decent gunner, so together we're a great gunner". That indeed makes no sense. But the party skill idea is the efficiency of the ship, not the efficiency of one character. One gunner might not be enough to handle ALL cannons on a Manowar, so you'd hire multiple gunners and they would all contribute to the efficiency of the ship.

I do agree that 2 gunners with 10 cannon skill points each should work more efficient than 10 gunners with 2 cannon skill points each. So that's one issue we will still need to think on.

What are "NCO's"?

I agree that the crew morale is something to keep into account. Trustworthy officers would increase the morale. However, if the player has hired a bunch of good but untrustworthy officers, they might mutiny against the player. The player's leadership skill would be very important in keeping order aboard. Officer's leadership skills will improve the morale of the crew, but if the officers have a higher leader ship skill than the player, they might mutiny, because they wouldn't really need the player anymore.

If we continue this brainstorming session and come up with a good concept to add to the game, we can make this game infinitely more interesting! Very good ideas are being mentioned here! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/w00t.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :woot

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LarryHookins · Sep 24, 2006

The player character won't be limited in anything other than the size of the ship he can command at full skill level without specialists to help. And even then it's not a hard limit, but just that the skill level will degrade with higher ship classes.

Instead of saying the whole idea is bad, suggest improvements. I'm reserving judgement on cumulative skills for now. As for morale, that seems like a good thing to add in. Especially if you don't have the necessary specialists.

Hook

Pieter: NCO = noncomissioned officer. Sergeants, in other words. Or in navy terms petty officers.

Hook

mrmistophelees · Sep 24, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Sep 24 2006, 01:22 AM) [snapback]163329[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
What about this idea: We DO use the officer class system, but you can talk to the officer and change his profession that way. For example: You hire the level 1 gunner I mention above. He will work aboard your ship as a gunner and any level-up points he receives can not be put into the sailing skill, because he is a gunner. But you can talk to the officer and tell him that you will use him as a navigator instead. After you did that, his class will be changed into navigator and you will be able to increase his sailing skills. However, his cannon skills will NOT improve the party skill anymore, because, although he might BE a good gunner, he wouldn't currently be ACTIVE as a gunner.

This would bring up the idea of the "active officer type". An officer can have all skills, but he will only USE the skills he needs for his profession. And you can change that profession through dialog.

Why shouldn't skills be cumulative? You shouldn't think of it as "I am a decent gunner, and he is a decent gunner, so together we're a great gunner". That indeed makes no sense. But the party skill idea is the efficiency of the ship, not the efficiency of one character. One gunner might not be enough to handle ALL cannons on a Manowar, so you'd hire multiple gunners and they would all contribute to the efficiency of the ship.

I do agree that 2 gunners with 10 cannon skill points each should work more efficient than 10 gunners with 2 cannon skill points each. So that's one issue we will still need to think on.

I agree that the crew morale is something to keep into account. Trustworthy officers would increase the morale. However, if the player has hired a bunch of good but untrustworthy officers, they might mutiny against the player. The player's leadership skill would be very important in keeping order aboard. Officer's leadership skills will improve the morale of the crew, but if the officers have a higher leader ship skill than the player, they might mutiny, because they wouldn't really need the player anymore.</div>

I like the idea of the "Active Officer." I can see a couple advantages to it:
1. For those who don't want to be limited, it provides the so-called "opened ended game." Also, some people might think that having to scour the oceans for the right officer would be too tedious. I think it's realistic, but people don't always want to play a game based on realism.

2. For those who want to be limited, you don't have to ever approach that dialogue with the officers. Meaning that this would be an easy, automatic toggle for the whole limit-the-officer thing.

Keep in mind that most (if not all) suggestions I make are going to be heavily weighted to what I think are "Realistic" because that is the kind of games I favor. I like making games more realistic, even if it makes them harder and more tedious. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/razz.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :razz

" border="0" alt="razz.gif" /> But not everyone likes that, so thats why we have discussion!

I REALLY lik Pierter's explanation of the cumulative skills! And he accurately described what I was thinking too... that multiple officers are needed to make the sailing vessel more efficient. And it's not some magic number. Back when sailing ships were the vogue, captains always had a gunner generally for each row of guns on the ship. So that means if you were sailing that three-decker ship of the line, you would have at least 6 gunners to control the rows to the commands of the captain. Gun crews certainly couldn't be relied on to do anything themsleves you know.... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whippa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :whipa

" border="0" alt="whippa.gif" />

Crew morale as an effect of officer leadership sounds pretty good! It adds more interactivity with the crew, as well as throwing in a possible whole new dynamic to officers vs. captain!
Take this for example: An officer approaches you in a tavern and you interview him for a job. Looks like he's a great First Mate, but the problem is that his leadership is several points above yours (Barbossa anyone?) and there will eventually be the problem of who is REALLY captain on the ship! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/duel_pa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":ixi" border="0" alt="duel_pa.gif" />
Do you want to face that possibility (it's just a chance) and hire him for his needed services, or do you pass him up knowing that you might not find another First Mate candidate for another year? Decisions, decisions.... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/boom.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":boom" border="0" alt="boom.gif" />

ronlosey · Sep 25, 2006

If you want to go to a "named officer" system, we're going to need a lot more than four slots to work in. In fact, to make the whole skill-to-job thing work out, we would need named characters for just about every officer and NCO on the ship. A Master Gunner, a First Gunner's Mate, a Second Gunner's Mate, a third and fourth if there are several gun decks on the ship, an Ordinance man. The quality of each of these would affect the ship in different ways. The Master Gunner's leadership would be significant, as he would need to keep all this circus coordinated. Fourth Gunner's Mate would not be supervising that many people, but his accuracy and gun handling skills would still be a noteworthy component to actually hitting anything.

If we really want to push this, we could be looking at completely reworking the crew system. Anybody remember the "Close Combat" games - every little guy was a named character, with various ratings for skills, attributes, and such. They were greatly abbreviated (just two or three numbers, instead of a whole page workup like the officers in our current game), but each little guy was still an individual. This allowed for "crew experience" - in that casualties hurt not just your total numbers, but that good people would have to be replaced with green replacements. Such a change in the current game, however, would be out of reach for some time. It is, however, worth thinking about.

For named officer positions, perhaps a rank system? Every "officer" (hired named character) would be given a rank and a job. The highest ranking gunner would be master gunner, and each rank below that would be his assistants, in order. In dialogue, it's just two options - Change officer rank, and change officer assignment. If you want to pull one of your gunners and make him repair, it's a single dialogue option or a button on the character sheet.

A better option than cumulative skill is average skill, or at least divided by necessary number. If the ship needs four command-level people to man the gun decks, then total gunner's skill divided by four. An extra man or two could help, so say up to double that - if the ship needs four, you could use up to 8. More would just get in each other's way. Then if you only have one and need four, he only operates at 25% of his potential (because he's trying to do four jobs at once). If you need 4 and have 8, then they would be running at twice the actual average of their skills - because they would have plenty of help. It would still need a cap at 10 - beyond a certain point, the technical aspects of the equipment limit the benefits of skill. (The guns just weren't that accurate, no matter how good you were.) You would need a good base number to work from - say one officer per ten guns, for the gunners. Not sure about sails. Logistics could use quite a few for repair.

This is, of course, all creating a lot of work for something that is not really broken. Let's think it through real carefully before making any changes, so we don't get something confusing and hard to use. Would hate to make things worse instead of better.

LarryHookins · Sep 25, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Sep 25 2006, 12:37 AM) [snapback]163573[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
If you want to go to a "named officer" system, we're going to need a lot more than four slots to work in. In fact, to make the whole skill-to-job thing work out, we would need named characters for just about every officer and NCO on the ship.</div>
Your task, should you decide to accept it, is to abstract all those different jobs down into 3 officers. If we implement this, someone will have to do it. If you're the best qualified, then it's up to you.

Hook

mrmistophelees · Sep 25, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Sep 24 2006, 09:37 PM) [snapback]163573[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
If we really want to push this, we could be looking at completely reworking the crew system. Anybody remember the "Close Combat" games - every little guy was a named character, with various ratings for skills, attributes, and such. They were greatly abbreviated (just two or three numbers, instead of a whole page workup like the officers in our current game), but each little guy was still an individual. This allowed for "crew experience" - in that casualties hurt not just your total numbers, but that good people would have to be replaced with green replacements. Such a change in the current game, however, would be out of reach for some time. It is, however, worth thinking about.
...
This is, of course, all creating a lot of work for something that is not really broken. Let's think it through real carefully before making any changes, so we don't get something confusing and hard to use. Would hate to make things worse instead of better.
</div>

Interesting suggestions! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/doff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :doff

" border="0" alt="doff.gif" />

About the "Lets not fix whats not broken" argument... Let me tell you from my perspective that I don't necessarily mod to fix problems. I mod to change the game to how it interests me. And I think you'll get that sentiment from most modders. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/buds.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :drunk

" border="0" alt="buds.gif" />

What I believe we are mainly trying to accomplish here, if I can put it into a one-sentence concept here, is the <u>requirement</u> of officers to effectively run your ship, a concept that Akella thought about differently for this game. So you are right that this is not broken, but this change is intruiging nevertheless no?
The idea of naming all the officers for the job they are doing, i.e. gunner's mate, master's mate, etc, is a natural extension of having several officers doing the same job. However, the problem I see with it, is that the game only has these very broad officer titles of Navigator, Gunner, Doctor, etc in the code.
If the player hires two gunners, one will probably be better than the other at gunnery, and that would be the Master Gunner. However, if we then rename the other one to First Gunner's Mate, that would change the code mid-game in reference to that character. I'm not sure thats desirable.

Now, about your "Close-Combat" idea... I'm not sure what games you are talking about, can you give some examples? Is it like Rainbow:Six you are talking about?
Anyway, that actually addresses a big problem I had with the game!! The fact that losing officers is very difficult unless you are very careless with them, ESPECIALLY if you give them the "Toughness" perk. In my game, I haven't played that much... I'm only level 23, but officers are so plentiful that I don't care about them anymore. I don't pump stats into them anymore, and I don't even bother to give them their perks. I have my core group of officers that work my fleet, and I have tons of rif-raff that are there for emergencies (there are no emergencies unfortunately). Officers have become meaningless for me now. However, if it were easy to lose them, it would become much more interesting because I would have to worry about having backups, and finding new ones.
I really hope something like this will be imlemented eventually too. It is definitly worth thinking about! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/w00t.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :woot

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Pieter Boelen · Sep 25, 2006

I wholeheartedly agree! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :cheers

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zorglub · Sep 25, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr Mistophelees @ Sep 25 2006, 11:31 AM) [snapback]163679[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>

However, if it were easy to lose them

</div>

Like you master gunner being killed when a cannon exploses, for exemple? Or you navigator being caught by a rogue wave during a storm?... We could base those bad events on their 'luck' skill...

Kazeite · Sep 25, 2006

<i>"Close Combat"</i> is a top-view RTS strategy game (and that is a very simplified description, let me assure you).

IMO, if I were forced by the game to continually seek new officers because of artificially invented reasons, I would be rather annoyed. Having some sort of "accidental death" system would perhaps be realistic, true, but rather annoying.

My point is, reading text that states "Sorry pal, your best gunner failed his <i>Luck</i> roll and slipped in the bath!" is hardly interesting or exciting. Do we want to make life easier or harder for the player?

And, there's this inevitable question: how come that only officer would be prone to such deaths? Surely, players character is risking his life as much as his every crewman. And yet no game-maker would dare to propose system that would arbitrarily kill main character "off-screen".

As of right now, the trouble with the officer is that they've become common thing. I'm not exactly sure whether being able to hire enemy captains as officers without much hassle is such a good idea. I mean, as far as I can tell, not one of my captives dared to refuse me. This makes officers cheap and plentiful thing, which I believe is a bad thing.

Make them hard to get. Make them unique. That way every lost officer would actually hurt player.

LarryHookins · Sep 25, 2006

Officers are only common later in the game. When you're first starting out, it's difficult to find enough. If we start adding requirements to have specific officers with specific duties, it will be that much harder.

If you only intend to sail one ship, and go out and capture three more each time you go out, you need a navigator and gunner, and probably a quartermaster (for commerce skills). You also need three first mates to bring the captured ships back to port. Getting the right kinds of officers will be difficult.

Having too many officers is like having too much money. There's no real way to prevent it. The way to deal with "too much money" is to divide the loot, which has a lot of advantages for the player. The way to deal with "too many officers" is to dismiss the extras. Or take them on a lot of boardings. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Hook

mrmistophelees · Sep 25, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kazeite @ Sep 25 2006, 10:23 AM) [snapback]163710[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'> <i>"Close Combat"</i> is a top-view RTS strategy game (and that is a very simplified description, let me assure you).

IMO, if I were forced by the game to continually seek new officers because of artificially invented reasons, I would be rather annoyed. Having some sort of "accidental death" system would perhaps be realistic, true, but rather annoying.

My point is, reading text that states "Sorry pal, your best gunner failed his <i>Luck</i> roll and slipped in the bath!" is hardly interesting or exciting. Do we want to make life easier or harder for the player?

And, there's this inevitable question: how come that only officer would be prone to such deaths? Surely, players character is risking his life as much as his every crewman. And yet no game-maker would dare to propose system that would arbitrarily kill main character "off-screen".

As of right now, the trouble with the officer is that they've become common thing. I'm not exactly sure whether being able to hire enemy captains as officers without much hassle is such a good idea. I mean, as far as I can tell, not one of my captives dared to refuse me. This makes officers cheap and plentiful thing, which I believe is a bad thing.

Make them hard to get. Make them unique. That way every lost officer would actually hurt player. </div>

I agree that some people would find it rather annoying to keep losing officers and having to replace them. My suggestion was merely an idea that popped into my head at the spur of the moment, inspired by Ron Losely's post. I have no idea right now how best to approach this issue, but I think everyone here can agree that there are too many officers, and we need a way to make them valuable or unique, or whatever, as well as being required. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/danse1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :dance

" border="0" alt="danse1.gif" />

Pieter Boelen · Sep 26, 2006

About hiring enemy captains: Sometimes they do refuse you. But we could make it so that they will refuse you much more often. It can also be made so that enemy captains are not trustworthy officers and they would be a main source of officers who would try to mutiny against you. So all officers will not just have a profession, but they will also have a setting on how trustworthy they are. We could use their reputation for that, but it would be better to NOT show to the player if an officer is trustworthy or not. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :cheeky

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr Mistophelees @ Sep 26 2006, 12:03 AM) [snapback]163767[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I think everyone here can agree that there are too many officers, and we need a way to make them valuable or unique, or whatever, as well as being required. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/danse1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :dance

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I know I do. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

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mrmistophelees · Sep 26, 2006

I agree that it would be better not to show the player the trustworthiness of an officer.

I had no idea that captives could refuse your request! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/8q.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :8q

" border="0" alt="8q.gif" /> I've hired dozens of them, and they were all pirates! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :rofl

" border="0" alt="24.gif" />

Pieter Boelen · Sep 26, 2006

I think it depends on your leadership skill. Something like <i>if your leadership = 1, then he'll refuse</i>. Maybe that piece of code should be changed to make it less likely that he'll join your crew. Check the Cabinfight_dialog.c file.

Black Bart · Oct 4, 2006

I'd just like to say what an interesting read this has been <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

I'm a new 'wanna-be' modder to PotC, and these are the kind of discusions i love reading and being part of. So the situation we have at present is:

1. Strict limits on active officers(to three+player on player ship/four on each extra ship).
2. All Officers can become in effect any other outside their job title if they have the highest skill for a job.
3. At later levels Officers become superfluous as you spend time specialising your core Officers and ignore the rest..

With the aim of making the start-game more drawn out, and middle to end game more interesting:

1. have a higher requirement of Officers to be able to sail a specific ship type
2. limit the effect of an Officers skill outside of their job title(either with a cap or reduced efficency)
3. enable the Captain(player) to change the job title of an Officer

Is that a reasonable summery of what we are looking at here?

Things that spring to mind would be you would need to stop the player being able to buy a ship that they didnt have enough Officers to man(maybe 'grey it out' in the shipyard?). You would also need a message to let the player know that they cant keep the ship they have just captured.

Other things that would need some thrashing out, would be changing an Officers job. Does it make sense that a gunner would be able to become a good navigator, or a first mate a doctor? I have never played the game long enough to get lots of Officers(usualy i stick to a max of 8 over two ships), but is it hard to find Officers of a specific type?
Maybe if you were to ask an Officer to change his job(as surely some did in real life) there could be a limit to what kind of profession they could become ? Or maybe this is just getting too complicated <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> not to worry.

In principle the main issue i can see with PotC is that you spend very little time feeling like a small fish in a big pond - it doesn't take long untill you are sailing that manOwar, which should be(and would have been) a rare chance rather than the norm. So this idea of increasing Officer compliment for ships could definately help in this area of the game. My gut feeling is to keep these changes as simple as possible to get the desired effect.

And with reguards to an Officer refusing to become part of your crew(I dont think i've experienced that?), is it or could it also be tied in to the relationship between the players nation and the Officers? So over time this would change?

Pieter Boelen · Oct 4, 2006

I agree with everything above. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/doff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :doff

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mrmistophelees · Oct 4, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Sep 25 2006, 02:11 PM) [snapback]163721[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
If you only intend to sail one ship, and go out and capture three more each time you go out, you need a navigator and gunner, and probably a quartermaster (for commerce skills). You also need three first mates to bring the captured ships back to port. Getting the right kinds of officers will be difficult.
Hook
</div>

Quite right, quite right.
Personally, I like the idea of having more difficulty in finding the right kind of officer that I need. It gives me another "quest" that I can spend my time on. I find that in the vanilla game, there isn't much variety in the quest department.
And, as Black Bart states in the quote below, "you spend very little time feeling like a small fish in a big pond." I agree totally here. I started playing POTC again after a multi-year break from it (I played it when it first came out, but was terribly bored with it), so I didn't really have any idea what was going on. But I basically <i>flew</i> through the "small fish" phase in no time at all. Thats really boring to me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="sad.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black Bart @ Oct 4 2006, 05:13 AM) [snapback]165392[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Things that spring to mind would be you would need to stop the player being able to buy a ship that they didnt have enough Officers to man(maybe 'grey it out' in the shipyard?). You would also need a message to let the player know that they cant keep the ship they have just captured.

Other things that would need some thrashing out, would be changing an Officers job. Does it make sense that a gunner would be able to become a good navigator, or a first mate a doctor? I have never played the game long enough to get lots of Officers(usualy i stick to a max of 8 over two ships), but is it hard to find Officers of a specific type?
Maybe if you were to ask an Officer to change his job(as surely some did in real life) there could be a limit to what kind of profession they could become ? Or maybe this is just getting too complicated <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> not to worry.
</div>

Currently, in the build mod, the player can't buy ships that are "over" his rank. I don't know where this rank comes from, or how it's calculated, but when the player is just starting out, he can't buy ships that are like 3rd rank or better. Furthermore, the player can't buy military ships (frigate, corvette, etc) unless he has a letter of marquee for the appropriate nation.... correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm not sure of the exact details.

About letting the player change the job of an officer... That has some interesting RPG effects. If we make it so that officers of a certain title (gunner for instance) can only develop their gunnery skills and can only effect that part of running a ship, then changing their profession could mean that they are no longer able to work as a gunner, and also can no longer develop their gunnery skills, but would start working on their new profession's skills.
The balancing part of such a system would be that although with enough time and effort the player could make officers that have every skill and perk maxed, each officer could only do one profession and could only contribute to the ship in one way. Maybe we could also limit how many times an officer can change professions. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :shrug

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This would also be a solution to Hook's issue that finding the "right" kind of officer would be very difficult.

Pieter Boelen · Oct 5, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr Mistophelees @ Oct 4 2006, 08:00 PM) [snapback]165484[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Currently, in the build mod, the player can't buy ships that are "over" his rank. I don't know where this rank comes from, or how it's calculated, but when the player is just starting out, he can't buy ships that are like 3rd rank or better.</div>The rank is simply the player level. By default, a new class of ships becomes available for every 6 level-ups you get.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr Mistophelees @ Oct 4 2006, 08:00 PM) [snapback]165484[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Furthermore, the player can't buy military ships (frigate, corvette, etc) unless he has a letter of marquee for the appropriate nation.... correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm not sure of the exact details.</div>That mod is made, but is not actually in any of the Build updates. Except for the 10 September one, but you shouldn't use that update because it's bugged.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr Mistophelees @ Oct 4 2006, 08:00 PM) [snapback]165484[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
About letting the player change the job of an officer... That has some interesting RPG effects. If we make it so that officers of a certain title (gunner for instance) can only develop their gunnery skills and can only effect that part of running a ship, then changing their profession could mean that they are no longer able to work as a gunner, and also can no longer develop their gunnery skills, but would start working on their new profession's skills.
The balancing part of such a system would be that although with enough time and effort the player could make officers that have every skill and perk maxed, each officer could only do one profession and could only contribute to the ship in one way. Maybe we could also limit how many times an officer can change professions. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :shrug

" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" />
</div>
Exactly! So even a gunner with EVERY skill maxed out to 10 skill points would ONLY contribute to firing the cannons and not to the sailing or boarding skills.

Black Bart · Oct 5, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr Mistophelees @ Oct 4 2006, 06:00 PM) [snapback]165484[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
edit....

Currently, in the build mod, the player can't buy ships that are "over" his rank.
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Yes as of the day before yesterday i had only got experience with the last full build release(12.1).
Now i have about 6 hours in pre-build13+the bugged latest update <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> I quite liked that feature when i came across it, and will be sad to lose it when i re-build my game without that bugged update.

I saw a thread in which Rad was very upset he could no longer get at the huge military ships(and was given a fix to get around it), but for me i'm happy with that as long as i have an option to capture one when out pirating - you can still do this?. You try going down to your local naval yard and trying to buy a destroyer <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

And as for difficulties in getting hold of the right officers, i think we are along the right lines in these discusions to come up with a solution. Its still a bit fuzzy around the edges, but with what we've been saying i kind of get this picture:

an Officers job title should define what he does best, so the skills for that job is what counts, it doesn't really make sense that your best gunner who also happens to have a high sailing ability would be used by the game to both gun+sail, even with a navigator on board. So job title defines what skills are used exclusively?

To help in this the Captian(player) can re-assign his officers if he wants to - i had a first thought this might need a limiting factor, but having mulled it over and taken into account death of officers(on land or in boarding actions) plus increasing the amount of officers it takes to run the bigger classes of ships(i guess we're looking at fixing a sliding scale as you go up the ship classes) - well i think it would work fine and not leave the player too often stuck if you could re-assign whenever and how many times you want?

Playtesting this would be the only way to be sure. and maybe to avoid never being able to capture additional ships we can have a minimum officer requirement(maybe current game default of 4?) but with very poor sea-worthy efficiency, and a maximum sailing efficency quota of officers. This way if push comes to shove you can take that extra captured brig back to shore with a skeleton crew manning it, rather than just not be able to?

Getting enough officers shouldn't be made too hard, but getting enough good officers should be where the challange lies.

And this is something i dont have enough experience of in PotC. I only ever have between 6-8 officers over two ships in my games.

Hooks comments on officer amounts(there being few to begin with - more later) could fit in the emerging model of increasing Officer requirement on larger ships. You shouldn't expect to lead a huge flotilla of battleships as a green rank 3 captain, in my games its not untill i'm around level 9 that i look to even get a second ship - up to that point i'm busy just trying to get my personal best ship. Still even at level 1 when i first start( i avoid dueling with malcom to increase my level) - i get my 6-8 officers in Oxbay before having to run from the french fleet. I just spend a few game days walking in and out of the tavern - voila all the officers i need for a while.

The main benifit i can see in increasing officer requirement for larger ships is that it will increase the amount of wages the player will have to pay. Which is a good thing i suspect - i'll need more time to test pre-build 13 more, but even with my relative short week testing 12.1; having too much money was an issue.

The next benefit is that it will give all those spare officers you collect as the game progress a real job to do, which in turn makes them more useful to you and they become part of the players concern.

The downside is players who like jumping right away into large flotilla's of large ships may find it harder to manage/enjoy?

Pieter Boelen · Oct 5, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black Bart @ Oct 5 2006, 11:56 AM) [snapback]165647[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Yes as of the day before yesterday i had only got experience with the last full build release(12.1).
Now i have about 6 hours in pre-build13+the bugged latest update <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> I quite liked that feature when i came across it, and will be sad to lose it when i re-build my game without that bugged update.
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In Pre Build 13 Update 10 September: You need a minimum level to be able to buy a ship at all. You can buy navy ships only if you have a LoM and the required rank with the appropriate nation.
In Build 13 Beta 1: You need a certain minimum level to be able to buy a ship at all. You can't buy navy ships ever.
In Build 13 Beta 2: You need a certain minimum level to be able to buy a ship at all. There are no additional limitations on buying navy ships.

I think the way it is in the 10 September update is the best. I made the mod and added it to the 10-9 update, but it is thoroughly untested, which is the reason why it's not in either of the Beta's. This mod will be in Build 13.1.

Please note: Beta 1 and Beta 2 are MORE recent than the 10-9 update.

A suggestion about sailing

Navigation Officer

Buccaneer

Landlubber

Freebooter

Buccaneer

Landlubber

Navigation Officer

Privateer

Privateer

Buccaneer

Landlubber

Navigation Officer

Landlubber

Navigation Officer

Corsair

Navigation Officer

Landlubber

Navigation Officer

Corsair

Navigation Officer