Balancing the ships in the game

irR4tiOn4L · Aug 2, 2006

<span style="color:#CC0000"><b>Note from Pieter Boelen:</b> This topic originated <a href="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=7755&view=findpost&p=156095" target="_blank">here</a>, but I moved it to a seperate thread, because it doesn't have anything to do with the original thread. I hope nobody minds. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :wp

" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" /></span>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Aug 1 2006, 05:57 PM) [snapback]156095[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(irR4tiOn4L @ Jul 22 2006, 12:49 PM) [snapback]154913[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
There is one other thing - i find it a good example of overcomplication when 'hiring' crew takes you till nightfall. Especially with the bug that does this even if you dont hire any. What does this 'feature' add? In my opinion, nothing, it just forces you to visit stores/shipyards/taverns in a particular order.
</div>
You will be pleased to know that I have been working on this issue yesterday. Instead of forcing the player to wait until evening, I now recoded this so that it works exactly as irR4tiOn4L suggests: The player is not forced to wait until nightfall, but the amount of crew will only be changed the next day again. I tested this and it works fine. I think this is much better than the previous solution. And it STILL prevents cheating, so the original intent of that code remains. I hope you will find this a nice improvement in the next modpack update. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/doff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :doff

" border="0" alt="doff.gif" />

In the next modpack update, you will find that much gamebalancing stuff has been changed, most of it done by IncredibleHat. It all seems to work reasonably well, but it still needs testing. However, I am quite certain that you will find it a major improvement. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :wp

" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" />
</div>

Thats excellent work there! Theres always a better way.

In terms of 'unbalanced' parts of the game - well its unfair of me to just 'blanket' this like i did - that kind of smear is unwaranted.

What ive noticed, however, is that in essence pirate versions have only one serious downside - less hull - and a slight inconvenience - less cargo - and even then these are often quite minor. But in return its faster, more meanouvrable with more crew and much more powerful guns.

More specialised ships like the 'gaff rigged xebec' are just ridiculously more capable than other (pretty mediocre) Xebecs.

Thats what i mean when i say some modders feel the need to put in an 'super' ship - a single ship that is the best possible for any particular application, in every way - be it smuggling, pirate etc.

Also, has anyone else noticed that the ability of certain ships to tack into the wind - like xebecs - is undermodelled?

Otherwise, most ships in the game are remarkably well balanced - these few are just spoiling the batch, thats all.

On an unrelated note - Are the crew you see running around on deck the right size? This is unchanged in the mod, but i swear they are like twice as big as they should be.

LarryHookins · Aug 2, 2006

Fore and aft rigged ships, the sloops and schooners (and the gaff-rigged xebec) can sail quite close to the wind, but I'm not sure if it's unrealistically close. These ships are enough fun to sail that I've spent many hours sailing around the islands, just sailing, weaving in and out of the rocks.

I haven't noticed enough difference in different national versions of the sloop or schooner to really matter. Some numbers are different, but the sailing qualities are pretty similar. I agree that there should be tradeoffs such that a ship with more guns won't sail as well as a lighter one, along with many others.

I'd be just as happy if there weren't national variations of each type of ship or random variations on the same nationality. There's enough variation in the captain's skills already to provide the same effect.

Hook

irR4tiOn4L · Aug 3, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Aug 2 2006, 05:50 PM) [snapback]156217[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Fore and aft rigged ships, the sloops and schooners (and the gaff-rigged xebec) can sail quite close to the wind, but I'm not sure if it's unrealistically close. These ships are enough fun to sail that I've spent many hours sailing around the islands, just sailing, weaving in and out of the rocks.

I haven't noticed enough difference in different national versions of the sloop or schooner to really matter. Some numbers are different, but the sailing qualities are pretty similar. I agree that there should be tradeoffs such that a ship with more guns won't sail as well as a lighter one, along with many others.

I'd be just as happy if there weren't national variations of each type of ship or random variations on the same nationality. There's enough variation in the captain's skills already to provide the same effect.

Hook
</div>

Well, i agree that it makes it complicated, but the national variations are pretty essential i would say, and the random variations are very interesting. I do wish the ship buy screen was organised by descending class, as in stock POTC. Its very irritating to have to scroll the entire list

As for schooners, well i love those ships too - they really are the most meanouvrable and fun ship to sail in the game. But the fast schooner has different rigging to the war schooner - it really does seem like there should be an appreciable difference in how they sail in different winds. I dont know much, but id say the war schooner would be faster tacking into the wind, while the fast schooner would be a fair bit faster going with the wind.

As is, they sail almost exactly the same way.

Even given the large volume of ships, they are fairly well balanced against each other. But the moment i see another 'pirate version' - i cringe. I truly hate those versions. Certainly there should NOT be pirate versions of Corvettes, frigates, or better. A good example of one of these 'super' pirate ships is the privateer - like a brig except better in every way except cargo.

To end on a good note - i have captured a 74 gun ship of the line - truly awesome.

Anyone know if those people are the right size? Just out of interest.

LarryHookins · Aug 3, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(irR4tiOn4L @ Aug 2 2006, 08:44 PM) [snapback]156345[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
As is, they sail almost exactly the same way.
</div>

Which is the same point I made. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> It might be possible to change the sailing characteristics by altering the "closest" and "best" parameters, but I haven't messed with those.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
Anyone know if those people are the right size? Just out of interest.
</div>

I've noticed that on a schooner, for example, your eye level is about the center of the crewmen's chests. I don't know if this is a problem with the size of the crewmen, or your actual eye level when walking on the deck. I have no idea how to change either.

Hook

irR4tiOn4L · Aug 3, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Aug 3 2006, 05:34 PM) [snapback]156378[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(irR4tiOn4L @ Aug 2 2006, 08:44 PM) [snapback]156345[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
As is, they sail almost exactly the same way.
</div>

Which is the same point I made. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> It might be possible to change the sailing characteristics by altering the "closest" and "best" parameters, but I haven't messed with those.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
Anyone know if those people are the right size? Just out of interest.
</div>

I've noticed that on a schooner, for example, your eye level is about the center of the crewmen's chests. I don't know if this is a problem with the size of the crewmen, or your actual eye level when walking on the deck. I have no idea how to change either.

Hook
</div>

Yeah i think you did make the point first. Well certainly the 'fast' schooner should have a 'best' parameter more downwind, say 45 degrees off the wind, then the 'war' schooner, which would probably have a more aggressive 'closest' parameter and a 'best' parameter as is - about 90 off the wind.

Im no sailing expert, in fact, i know very little about it (and what fore and aft even means) - but those sails are fundamentally different

As for the people - im not so worried about their size compared to your camera height - which as far as i know, are about the same - but more from a 3rd person camera/realistic perspective. The size of the people vs the ship is very different to that in the boarding views - also, the cannons are far too small compared to the people.

Basically, the ships look small as a result - a schooner is a relatively large ship, and a manowar is as tall as a small island. It seems to me that the people are 2 to 3 times taller than they should be.

Petros · Aug 3, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(irR4tiOn4L @ Aug 2 2006, 09:44 PM) [snapback]156345[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>

.... But the moment i see another 'pirate version' - i cringe. I truly hate those versions. Certainly there should NOT be pirate versions of Corvettes, frigates, or better. </div>

You are entitled to your opinion.
Many folks have asked for, welcomed, and enjoyed those ships, which I guess is why they are there.

You can always edit ships_init.c with

refShip.CanEncounter= false;
refShip.CanBuy = false;

to rid yourself of the offending ships.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
A good example of one of these 'super' pirate ships is the privateer - like a brig except better in every way except cargo.</div>

Take another look. There are four, 22Gun Brigs in game and the Sloop of War matches two of them .

The Privateer (Sloop of War) however, has Sloop bow sprit rigging with an extra sail, and a third mast with 3 extra square sails, which justify its slightly better speed 14.7 vs 14 for the slower Brigs, and maneuverability 42 vs 40 for the slower ones.

The two fast Brigs have been in the game since Build 11.9 and no one has seemed to notice. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :shrug

" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" />

What a difference a fresh paint job makes! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :facepalm

" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
To end on a good note - i have captured a 74 gun ship of the line - truly awesome. </div>

Looks like the bug has bitten you too then.
To restore the level of balance the original POTC had, that ship you like should be classed 1.
The game will generate encounters and give extra experience points based on your using a class 2 ship while you are really using an Uber-ship which out-guns everyone, including the battleships!

But what does that matter if you are enjoying using it.
Isn't that what "all" the ships have been put there for?

irR4tiOn4L · Aug 4, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Petros @ Aug 4 2006, 05:51 AM) [snapback]156447[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(irR4tiOn4L @ Aug 2 2006, 09:44 PM) [snapback]156345[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>

.... But the moment i see another 'pirate version' - i cringe. I truly hate those versions. Certainly there should NOT be pirate versions of Corvettes, frigates, or better. </div>

You are entitled to your opinion.
Many folks have asked for, welcomed, and enjoyed those ships, which I guess is why they are there.

You can always edit ships_init.c with

refShip.CanEncounter= false;
refShip.CanBuy = false;

to rid yourself of the offending ships.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
A good example of one of these 'super' pirate ships is the privateer - like a brig except better in every way except cargo.</div>

Take another look. There are four, 22Gun Brigs in game and the Sloop of War matches two of them .

The Privateer (Sloop of War) however, has Sloop bow sprit rigging with an extra sail, and a third mast with 3 extra square sails, which justify its slightly better speed 14.7 vs 14 for the slower Brigs, and maneuverability 42 vs 40 for the slower ones.

The two fast Brigs have been in the game since Build 11.9 and no one has seemed to notice. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :shrug

" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" />

What a difference a fresh paint job makes! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :facepalm

" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
To end on a good note - i have captured a 74 gun ship of the line - truly awesome. </div>

Looks like the bug has bitten you too then.
To restore the level of balance the original POTC had, that ship you like should be classed 1.
The game will generate encounters and give extra experience points based on your using a class 2 ship while you are really using an Uber-ship which out-guns everyone, including the battleships!

But what does that matter if you are enjoying using it.
Isn't that what "all" the ships have been put there for?
</div>

Well first of all, i dont believe in compromising the balancing or believability of the world just for what 'many folks' want - an uber version of each ship, called pirate for lack of any knowledge of history. Further, i doubt they were added on a wave of popular opinion, as you seem to suggest, but a few people agreeing it 'might be cool'.

My beef is this - Why can a pirate corvette mount guns that a lineship was designed for? Why can a pirate lineship mount guns that only a much larger ship of the line or battleship can? These ships are nonsense, and if your saying people want nonsense, so be it.

As for the privateer - it looks like a brig - Im not a fan of reskins representing a totally altered ship, but it is necessary, and it was my ignorance that ASSUMED it was a brig. I might also ask why its not called the sloop of war, but i digress - if you say its design justifies the sailing advantages, fine - i can accept that.

What i dont accept is that it could mount cannons much larger than any sloop or brig (more like a corvette), or that, in fact, the design is even based on or resembles a real ship. Its a very optimistic approximation of a sloop of war, and does not fit in the game - since it has no comparable vessel.

As for it being there a long time and noone noticing - poor argument. First, I havent been here to notice it before, as i am the one arguing against it, and second, even if its been there a long time - that doesnt mean it should be.

As for the 74 gun, well, i never ACTUALLY got to use it much - i berthed it precisely because it outgunned everyone - as it should - (btw, battleships are close in terms of power) and used a corvette with a brig companion instead.

Unfortunately, this 74 gun got destroyed by a glitch in berthing, so i never got to enjoy it much.

Now if i understand it correctly, you are arguing that such an uber ship should have uber encounters. I dont completely agree. Also, the 74 gun IS class 1.

I do agree that the INCIDENCE of class 1 and 2 vessel encounters should be bumped up very slightly when using this ship, but i dont agree that the entire balance of ships in the world should be skewed just because i have this ship.

The fact is, this ship was UBER in real life - but barely ever encountered (and that would be in a fleet). Thats what should be fixed - that i could encounter this ship as owned by a pirate (governor mission) and that i could capture it without repercussions - and not rushing it with a hoard of class 1 ships in random encounters.

I have seen 1 other class 1 vessel before, while using a corvette, and that was a french light manowar in Guadelupe. I was going to capture it, but alas it dissapeared next time i exited the port.

LarryHookins · Aug 4, 2006

Sailing qualities of various ships.

I've spent many hours in a spreadsheet analyzing the various ships' ability to sail. I believe that they are well balanced. Surprisingly, the humble lugger is the second fastest ship in the game when sailing before the wind (wind coming directly from behind) with only the corvette being marginally faster. It's 4 knots faster than the schooner. Sailing with the wind on the beam (directly from the side), only the schooner is faster, by less than 2 knots. The sloop and schooner will sail much closer to the wind than the other ships so have a considerable maneuverability advantage.

Fore-and-aft rigged versus square rigged.

Fore and aft sails are designed to drive the ship with the wind blowing from either side of the sail. Square rigged sails are designed to drive the ship with the wind on only one side. Square rigged ships are better for deep ocean voyages where the trip can be planned to take advantage of prevailing winds to minimize the need to sail into the wind.

Closest versus best.

Closest point is how close the ship can sail into the wind and is a straightforward calculation. Sloops and schooners can sail 27 degrees off the wind, for example. Best point is an abstract number used in a calculation. And the best point for a sloop or schooner is not where those ships sail the fastest. The fastest is with the wind on the beam, where it will sail 16% faster than the indicated speed of the ship. A ship will sail at the indicated speed with the wind at the best point at 30 knots.

Nationality differences in sailing qualities.

For the most part, these are really too small to matter much.

Why are the guns so small compared to the crewmen on deck?

Keep in mind that the upper deck has the smallest guns on the ship. These will be 4 pounders on the smaller ships, and probably 12 pounders on the largest ones. These guns are not very big, at least the 4 pounders.

Balancing the encounters when you have a larger ship.

I spent a lot of time when my computer was in the shop reading about Dungeons and Dragons and the need to balance encounters to make that game more interesting to play. If you have a larger ship, it's not going to be much fun to encounter too many small opponents. But from what I've seen, the balance has been fairly well done.

Hook

irR4tiOn4L · Aug 4, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Aug 4 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]156481[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Sailing qualities of various ships.

I've spent many hours in a spreadsheet analyzing the various ships' ability to sail. I believe that they are well balanced. Surprisingly, the humble lugger is the second fastest ship in the game when sailing before the wind (wind coming directly from behind) with only the corvette being marginally faster. It's 4 knots faster than the schooner. Sailing with the wind on the beam (directly from the side), only the schooner is faster, by less than 2 knots. The sloop and schooner will sail much closer to the wind than the other ships so have a considerable maneuverability advantage.

Fore-and-aft rigged versus square rigged.

Fore and aft sails are designed to drive the ship with the wind blowing from either side of the sail. Square rigged sails are designed to drive the ship with the wind on only one side. Square rigged ships are better for deep ocean voyages where the trip can be planned to take advantage of prevailing winds to minimize the need to sail into the wind.

Closest versus best.

Closest point is how close the ship can sail into the wind and is a straightforward calculation. Sloops and schooners can sail 27 degrees off the wind, for example. Best point is an abstract number used in a calculation. And the best point for a sloop or schooner is not where those ships sail the fastest. The fastest is with the wind on the beam, where it will sail 16% faster than the indicated speed of the ship. A ship will sail at the indicated speed with the wind at the best point at 30 knots.

Nationality differences in sailing qualities.

For the most part, these are really too small to matter much.

Why are the guns so small compared to the crewmen on deck?

Keep in mind that the upper deck has the smallest guns on the ship. These will be 4 pounders on the smaller ships, and probably 12 pounders on the largest ones. These guns are not very big, at least the 4 pounders.

Balancing the encounters when you have a larger ship.

I spent a lot of time when my computer was in the shop reading about Dungeons and Dragons and the need to balance encounters to make that game more interesting to play. If you have a larger ship, it's not going to be much fun to encounter too many small opponents. But from what I've seen, the balance has been fairly well done.

Hook
</div>

Thanks hook, good rationalisation. I do agree that the balance is mostly spot on.

However - the Fast schooner and War schooner have different types of rigging - shouldnt they sail differently?

The Xebecs all have triangular sails - wouldnt that provide some advantage sailing into the wind (ie, shouldnt they be able to sail closer to the wind than sloops or schooners?

As for the people - yeah, ill accept that those guns are small, but if these schooners are about 60 feet, and a person might be 5 feet, than that should be 12 people across their length - that doesnt seem to be the case right now. I cant imagine how 70 odd people could fit.

EDIT
I just checked it, and actually, 13 people fit along the length of a schooner. The people do seem to be the right size.

LarryHookins · Aug 4, 2006

If you're trying to compare the scale of the people when sailing and the scale of the boarding parties, they're totally different animals. The boardings are done on a generic deck, which has to have enough room for our boarding actors to fight. They won't relate well to any of the ships in the game.

If the characters on your decks while sailing are a different scale from the ship, then we need to get someone with some expertise in 3d modelling to see if they can be brought closer.

I don't see how the xebec sails would give any advantage. And I'm not sure what you mean by the fast schooner and war schooner having different rigging. Differences in performance would come from different weights and hull shapes, mostly. The sails (and rigging) should be about the same. Note that I haven't looked at them in the game recently.

Hook

irR4tiOn4L · Aug 4, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Aug 4 2006, 02:54 PM) [snapback]156486[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
If you're trying to compare the scale of the people when sailing and the scale of the boarding parties, they're totally different animals. The boardings are done on a generic deck, which has to have enough room for our boarding actors to fight. They won't relate well to any of the ships in the game.

If the characters on your decks while sailing are a different scale from the ship, then we need to get someone with some expertise in 3d modelling to see if they can be brought closer.

I don't see how the xebec sails would give any advantage. And I'm not sure what you mean by the fast schooner and war schooner having different rigging. Differences in performance would come from different weights and hull shapes, mostly. The sails (and rigging) should be about the same. Note that I haven't looked at them in the game recently.

Hook
</div>

This is a simple size test - one person copied 13 times along the length of the ship. That about answers a 65 foot schooner and a 5 foot person. As hard as it is for me to believe how 70 people could fit at that size, it seems they did.

<a href="http://imageshack.us" target="_blank"><img src="http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3402/shipsizewz4.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>

This is a shot of a fast schooner at back, and normal (war schooner is the same) schooner in the foreground. As you can see, the fast schooner has square rigging on its fore mast - and should thus be faster with the wind, at the expense of perpendicular sailing or tacking into the wind.

<a href="http://imageshack.us" target="_blank"><img src="http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/694/fastandnormalschoonerpn4.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>

LarryHookins · Aug 4, 2006

Ok, I'd never encountered that ship in the game. It's not a schooner at all, but seems to fit the definition below:

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantine" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantine</a>

I'd give that puppy a closest of 0.3 and a best of 0.8, same as the brig. Schooner has 0.15 and 0.625. You might relent and give it the brigantine numbers of 0.25 and 0.7.

I also notice the Privateer ("sloopofwarETC") ends up with the sloop rigging characteristics, which can't be right if that thing is square rigged.

Hook

irR4tiOn4L · Aug 4, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Aug 4 2006, 04:44 PM) [snapback]156494[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Ok, I'd never encountered that ship in the game. It's not a schooner at all, but seems to fit the definition below:

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantine" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantine</a>

I'd give that puppy a closest of 0.3 and a best of 0.8, same as the brig. Schooner has 0.15 and 0.625. You might relent and give it the brigantine numbers of 0.25 and 0.7.

I also notice the Privateer ("sloopofwarETC") ends up with the sloop rigging characteristics, which can't be right if that thing is square rigged.

Hook
</div>

yeah i do like that ship. But its considerably lighter than a brig, with a lot of sail and would at least be a fair bit faster - also the brig ingame is very different - this ship has a hybrid square/triangular sail arrangement, the brig is mostly square - id say this ship should really be between the two, and probably the fastest ship with the wind. Its performance off the wind would be pretty good too i think, but i doubt it could tack as close as a schooner.

There is also a 'brigantine' ingame, but its just a brig.

In any case, the people appear to be the right size - but in reality there would be a lot more of them. Any way to bump up the number of crew on deck?

Also, if those people ARE the right size, and 70 would be on a ship, id imagine just one broadside of 5 cannons would kill at least 15. Thats nasty! Is that really how it would happen?

BTW, does anyone know why some of my crew are grey?

fudge dragon · Aug 4, 2006

Dunno about your crew being gray. on my laptop some of the portaits of speakers are gray but it always crashes when I go to sea.

I think the crew need to be smaller if you look at the hight of the vessel under the water, the size of doors on deck and the size of the cabin models. maybe increace the number of crew on deck a bit. but not to much. most people (on the larger ships) were below.

irR4tiOn4L · Aug 4, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fudge dragon @ Aug 4 2006, 06:53 PM) [snapback]156498[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Dunno about your crew being gray. on my laptop some of the portaits of speakers are gray but it always crashes when I go to sea.

I think the crew need to be smaller if you look at the hight of the vessel under the water, the size of doors on deck and the size of the cabin models. maybe increace the number of crew on deck a bit. but not to much. most people (on the larger ships) were below.
</div>

Yeah but a good 30-40 at least should be up top - even the smallest vessels would have this number, and theyd be on top, and the larger vessels would definitely have that many up top. Would add to immersion, and i doubt itd slow down the fps too much.

Also, yeah look i thought the crew was too big too - hence my doubt - but apparently, they are not. Their current size is perfect if we say a schooner is 65 feet and the average person is 5 feet. I cant believe it, but thats what it looks like.

Perhaps the schooner is much bigger than 65 feet?

irR4tiOn4L · Aug 5, 2006

I did another simple test, this time with a Manowar - 50 people fit across its span, about answering a 250 foot ship and 5 foot people (the 98 gun HMS Victory was 227 foot).

<a href="http://imageshack.us" target="_blank"><img src="http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/8954/shipsize2qy6.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>

It seems that the people are the correct size. Thats a fair few people crammed on one ship - i think it bears investigation whether the crew numbers are accurate - since i doubt the smaller ships are accurate.

Also, i want to point out that both the Corvette and Frigate ingame are really just a 6th rate and 5th rate frigate respectively.

The sloop of war, and the related corvette, carried between 10 and 18 cannons, not including carronades. The biggest corvette, the USS Constellation, had 24 guns, not including carronades. That means the corvette would be more like the Brig.

Obviously, most of the smaller ships ingame carry far more cannons then they should be.

For example, the Fleut would carry about 12 to 15 cannons, yet ingame it carries some 20.

Some vessels on the other hand, like the Xebec, are undermodelled - from wikipedia -

"When used as corsairs they carried a crew of 300 to 400 men and mounted perhaps 16 to 40 guns according to size"

"Early xebecs had two masts; later ones three. Xebecs featured a distinctive hull with pronounced overhanging bow and stern, and rarely displaced more than 200 tons, making them slightly smaller and with slightly fewer guns than frigates of the period"

Akella seems to have followed complete fantasy here. Kind of a pity, as it kills variety. Changing these ships would require extensive remodelling.

irR4tiOn4L · Aug 5, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Aug 4 2006, 04:44 PM) [snapback]156494[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Ok, I'd never encountered that ship in the game. It's not a schooner at all, but seems to fit the definition below:

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantine" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantine</a>

I'd give that puppy a closest of 0.3 and a best of 0.8, same as the brig. Schooner has 0.15 and 0.625. You might relent and give it the brigantine numbers of 0.25 and 0.7.

I also notice the Privateer ("sloopofwarETC") ends up with the sloop rigging characteristics, which can't be right if that thing is square rigged.

Hook
</div>

I ended up giving it a closest of 0.215 and a best of 0.685, on account of its lighter and sleeker hull, lighter weight and more unique sails than the ingame brigantine - its fore mast has only a few of the traditional square sails designed for sailing with the wind, and instead utilises the same 'parachute' type sail all schooners have on their main mast.

I gave the privateer a closest of 0.28 and a best of 0.75

irR4tiOn4L · Aug 5, 2006

Making those changes to the fast schooner had an interesting side effect - it became a slow schooner. No matter where i was sailing, my companion would significantly outpace me.

How does the 'best' variable work?

Pieter Boelen · Aug 5, 2006

I'm sure it's not the new models/reskins that are not liked. It's the sailing characteristics that the problems lie with. And I can imagine that there are several new ships in the game that don't have as realistic or well-balanced sailing characteristics as they maybe should have. But as soon as the sailing characteristics are balanced properly, all those ships will work great in the game. Right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

Note about Pirate ships: There are two types of pirate ships: Pirate ships that are being named Pirate ship in the ships_init file (such as the Pirate Corvette) and the Pirate design versions of the ships that are being generated by the game itself. There is a structural difference between these two types of ships. Theoretically you could encounter an English design Pirate corvette (if she was set to CanBuy/CanEncounter).

If you buy/encounter a ship, the ship will have a nation of origin. Based on this nation, the sailing characteristics are different. I think these variations are being generated by the function SetRandomStatsToShip(aref chrship, int idx, int nat) in PROGRAM\Ships\Ships.c, but I don't understand entirely how it works.

It appears that if you set refShip.unique for a ship, the stats will not be modified by this mod. Maybe this should be set for the unique ships by Petros, such as the Pirate Corvette. Then you know for certain that the statistics for that ship ingam are the same as they are in ships_init.c with no variation.

I hope that somebody can explain exactly with which version of pirate ships he has a problem and please also say what this problem is exactly. I'm sure something can be done abot it that is not removing pirate ships out of the game entirely. I wouldn't want to remove them from the game entirely, but we might be able to figure out how to make these types of ships less good.

The Privateer has cannon MaxCalibre set to 12. Is that too much?

Who is working on balancing the sailing characteristics? Can you please post a list of all changes you propose?

BTW: It doesn't really matter if the size of the crew members is correct or not, because we can't really change it. Or maybe we CAN change it, but it will be very hard and not really worth the effort. The problem is that if you resize the crewmembers, you also have to resize the animation and editing animation is something that nobody really seems to be capable of doing.

LarryHookins · Aug 5, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(irR4tiOn4L @ Aug 5 2006, 05:55 AM) [snapback]156608[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Making those changes to the fast schooner had an interesting side effect - it became a slow schooner. No matter where i was sailing, my companion would significantly outpace me.

How does the 'best' variable work?
</div>
The "fast schooner" *should* be slower than a normal schooner, because of the square rigged sails being less efficient. The ship might sail faster if the wind is coming from directly astern, but don't count on it. Brigantine refers to the rigging type, not the ship itself. And this thing is brigantine rigged.

The best variable is mostly abstract, and feeds a complicated equation. There's no way I could describe it properly without resorting to a lot of math. Basically, just take the closest number and add 0.5 to it. I'm not sure what might happen if you vary much from that number.

Hook

Balancing the ships in the game

Landlubber

Buccaneer

Landlubber

Buccaneer

Landlubber

Captain of "La Nao"

Landlubber

Buccaneer

Landlubber

Buccaneer

Landlubber

Buccaneer

Landlubber

Landlubber

Landlubber

Landlubber

Landlubber

Landlubber

Navigation Officer

Buccaneer