Abandoned Early game trial and error exploit

[Levis]

We've all been there. You are early in game you want to do a certain mission while its actually suppost to be for a higher level but it gives you good gear.
In soms cases we can restrict this by having the quest only unlock at a certain level. But if you look at this topic:
http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/...rs-how-do-you-begin-a-new-game-h.24781/page-2
You'll see people just killing of guards to get better gear. This is very risky but the rewards are high, and eventually you probably succeed.
Maybe we can come up with some idea's to have the save and reload option be a less usefull thing.
For example:

If you are below a certain level guards won't attack you when you attack them. Instead a dialog is triggered and you are escorted to jail. You love some XP or money or skillpoints or something like that. After that you are released again and you can continue.
Only after you passed a certain level you are "strong" enough to not be taken into custody automaticly and you have the option to fight your way out.
This might solve an exploid here too .

 

[Pieter Boelen]

We could just enable godmode on the guards, but that is a bit dull.
I would prefer that stealing from them IS possible, but not easy and may have consequences.

One thing I thought of is to randomly set when you enter a location if you can steal from the guards.
So then if it doesn't work and you reload to try again, you'll get the same result.
Or set whether you can succeed at all once per day for the entire town. @Hylie Pistof wouldn't be happy about that one though.....

And certain good-gear quests may have to be limited so you can't do it right at the beginning of the game.
If there are too many exploits available in the early game, that wouldn't make for very good gameplay, would it?

 

[Grey Roger]

That depends on your definition of "good gameplay". Nobody is putting a weapon to your head and forcing you to go on any of these quests early on, so if you don't want to play them, don't play them!

The real result of blocking players from doing things to get a good start is that they'll clam up. @Hylie Pistof has already indicated as much; he's found another way to get good equipment early and isn't saying what it is because you'll just foul it up for him. And I should never have mentioned early activities on Martinique. It was meant as a hint to help other starting players, not a hint for something to be blocked. Lesson learned.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Is it good gameplay to be able to get a near-infinite amount of super high-level items right at the beginning of the game? I'm inclined to say no.

The Martinique sidequest thing isn't actually much of a concern to me; that was always possible anyway and is only 1-2 weapons.
So I'd be quite happy to leave that as-is. I'm just thinking out loud; not taking any decisions on that one without community support.
And even then.... Deciding on new changes = more work. And I don't actually want to create more work than is necessary.
So you don't need to worry too much on that one.

The soldier exploit is a mod-added issue because the soldiers used to all be equipped with crappy stuff ("blade1" and "pistol1") and only get new after they were killed, based on player level.
That was changed for the period and nations mod so the soldiers all get an appropriate weapon, which doesn't take into account player level at all.
This was done partly also to make them more dangerous enemies so that they become better at their job.
If players can just wreak havoc in town without much of any bad consequences, there is something wrong with the game world.
That is something I tried to address with that change.

Of course if you manage to get that good stuff from them without giving them a chance to defend themselves,
that means you're bypassing the whole system and get an unintentional advantage over all normal enemies in the game world.
That is also why the soldiers on ships no longer get the default period and nation weapons. When fighting against any nation's ships, you'd end up with a ridiculous amount of good stuff.
The boardings would be harder, of course. But if you succeed, the rewards become just silly.

 

[Levis]

I don't think everything should be blocked etc.
But if in doing this you have to try it 20 times or so to succeed then maybe at least some kind of hind should be given that isn't not a good idea and you might want to consider something else.
Also what pieter says. I have no problem with you finding a good sword and good pistol early ingame. But being able to equip your whole crew with overpowered swords and pistols while just beginning sounds game breaking to me.

@Pieter Boelen we could also add a minlevel to the weapons worn by the guards, so you could actually get them but not use them untill your higher ... thats how the minlevel works right?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

@Pieter Boelen we could also add a minlevel to the weapons worn by the guards, so you could actually get them but not use them untill your higher ... thats how the minlevel works right?

All weapons already have minlevel and the guards' weapons' minlevel is quite high.
But it just prevents items from showing up in the game until you reach that level; it does NOT prevent the player from using it when they get their hands on it.
So in a way, the "period and nation soldier weapons" bypasses the minlevel system in the first place, which messes things up to begin with.

But even if you couldn't use those weapons, selling them would make for a massive source of income.
Other idea is that you can't even loot those items at all. That might not be a bad idea....

 

[Levis]

We could just hide them from the loot interface untill you reached the level. So you really can't find them. So guards will appear to have no weapons.
Or if that is weird we disable the "getting" part untill you reached the level. Altought that might need some figuring out. Especially in the autoloot.

I do think that might be one of the easiest way to get some more balance

 

[Pieter Boelen]

We could just hide them from the loot interface untill you reached the level. So you really can't find them. So guards will appear to have no weapons.

No items shown in the looting interface that are below the needed minlevel is what I would imagine.

 

[Grey Roger]

Again, nobody is forcing you to mug guards to steal enough weapons for an army, so if you don't think it makes for good gameplay, don't do it. (I don't, mainly because I play as an honourable character and don't steal stuff when anyone is looking - nobody has seen me burgle a house because I only loot the chest if nobody is at home .)

However, guards should be a bit harder to mug. They're not supposed to be the Keystone Cops. Maybe give them a better chance than the average citizen of detecting an attempt with a thief's knife, surviving a hit from a cobblestone (unlike the average citizen, they're likely to be wearing armour) or avoiding poison from a throwing knife. And of course, if one of them does detect the attack, he's got a very nice sword and so has his mate... If MinLevel for a French Admiralty Rapier is 11 then guards carrying it should be at least level 11.

(This is what is likely to happen if you get too close to a guard. )

Making items invisible on the looting interface unless you're at the right MinLevel is a really bad idea. For one thing, it means if you've defeated a tough opponent to get his weapon, you get nothing. You may as well remove the Clint Eastwood Easter egg in that case. Making it impossible to use a weapon unless you're above MinLevel is also a bad idea - you can take the Nicholas Sharp sword out of the game if you do that, for a start. On the other hand, it certainly would improve realism because it would also take those custom rifles out of the game.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

However, guards should be a bit harder to mug. They're not supposed to be the Keystone Cops. Maybe give them a better chance than the average citizen of detecting an attempt with a thief's knife, surviving a hit from a cobblestone (unlike the average citizen, they're likely to be wearing armour) or avoiding poison from a throwing knife. And of course, if one of them does detect the attack, he's got a very nice sword and so has his mate... If MinLevel for a French Admiralty Rapier is 11 then guards carrying it should be at least level 11.

The consequences when they catch you are severe. But the "save and reload" thing cannot be avoided that way.
The only thing that would prevent that is to make it altogether impossible until your level is high enough to match their weapons.

 

[Levis]

thats why I sugested that when you are below a certain rank you will be escorted to prison.
For example if you are fighting 3 guards or more they will overpower you if you level is below theirs and the fight will stop.
That does sound realistic right?

I don't know for sure if its possible to make tough .

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Still doesn't prevent the "save and reload" thing. In fact, NOTHING is ever going to prevent that unless we make it completely and utterly not possible until a certain point in the game.
I know @Hylie Pistof is the one who likes to do that. So either we talk with him about a solution that would work for him as well or we don't do anything at all.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

What no one has noticed is that the guards are effectively in god mode until quite late in the game as they have 300 HP and very good weapons. This also means that special weapons don't work against them until later in the game too. The guards either ignore them or come after you and kill you. I don't even bother with them early on as it is a waste of time. Those special weapons are also quite rare so again the guards are quite safe for much of the game. In this current game I am at level 19 and have maybe 10 soldiers swords. One for each officer and some spares.

Bottom line for me is to either get good equipment early or avoid all combat until I can get good equipment by other means. So I play as a trader with a little smuggling on the side.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I did notice their high HP level because that is quite intentional to match with their better weapons these days.

Anyway, if you only manage to steal from them in the later game, that is quite fine.
It is possible for a reason.

So I'm marking this as "Abandoned". What we currently have may not be 100% perfect, but it is fine for the time being.

 

[Talisman]

Is it good gameplay to be able to get a near-infinite amount of super high-level items right at the beginning of the game? I'm inclined to say no.

Players should be allowed to play the game the way they want to play it.

Some players want to play sailing a Class 1 ship and fighting Naval Battles right from the Start - Fine that's OK if that is the type of game they want to play then they can. ( it's not for me)

The more you try and restrict the player to play the game the way the programmers and modders think it should be played then the fewer the number of people there are that will want to play. And surely those who have put so much time and effort into modding the game want to see all their hard work enjoyed & appreciated by as many people as possible.

One of the greatest strengths - and selling points of New Horizons is that it is so flexible and can be played in so many different ways by so many different people - from the "arcade kiddies" who want to beat the crap out of everyone to the "sailing simulator geeks" who want the challenge of trying to sail from one island to the next against the wind. ( OK I exaggerate a little in this sentence). From those who want to play adventure stories - fictional or otherwise to those who just wish to hunt for Treasure and capture towns .

What I am trying to say is please remember that POTC New Horizons is a game and it should give enjoyment to the players ( as many players as possible).

If some players get pleasure playing it one way - great.

If they share their tips & tricks - great. For other players who like to play the same way that can increase their enjoyment.

The other players who play the game differently and get different types of enjoyment from it can just ignore the information and continue playing as they always have.



PS:-

Just noticed this has been marked as Abandoned - while I was writing this

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Players should be allowed to play the game the way they want to play it.

Some players want to play sailing a Class 1 ship and fighting Naval Battles right from the Start - Fine that's OK if that is the type of game they want to play then they can. ( it's not for me)

The more you try and restrict the player to play the game the way the programmers and modders think it should be played then the fewer the number of people there are that will want to play. And surely those who have put so much time and effort into modding the game want to see all their hard work enjoyed & appreciated by as many people as possible.

One of the greatest strengths - and selling points of New Horizons is that it is so flexible and can be played in so many different ways by so many different people - from the "arcade kiddies" who want to beat the crap out of everyone to the "sailing simulator geeks" who want the challenge of trying to sail from one island to the next against the wind. ( OK I exaggerate a little in this sentence). From those who want to play adventure stories - fictional or otherwise to those who just wish to hunt for Treasure and capture towns .

What I am trying to say is please remember that POTC New Horizons is a game and it should give enjoyment to the players ( as many players as possible).

If some players get pleasure playing it one way - great.

If they share their tips & tricks - great. For other players who like to play the same way that can increase their enjoyment.

The other players who play the game differently and get different types of enjoyment from it can just ignore the information and continue playing as they always have.



PS:-

Just noticed this has been marked as Abandoned - while I was writing this

I do completely agree with you.

But I do think that if the game is too hard, then players shouldn't need to use exploits to survive,
either THEY should decrease the difficulty level or WE should rebalance the game properly.

Players who REALLY want to go all-out on the exploits have got the cheatmode available.

 

[Grey Roger]

I agree 100% with what @Talisman said.

There are various problems with the notion that if players use exploits to survive the early game then there's a fundamental problem with balance. For one thing, there are different types of players, including ace gamers with lightning reflexes who can blitz through any game you put in front of them, and casual gamers who, shall we say, don't exactly have lightning reflexes. (I'm firmly of the latter type and only survive PoTC at all because of its simplified fencing system. ) Then there are different play styles, including being patient, keeping out of trouble and only fighting in self-defence, at least at first; or getting stuck in to raiding ships and pillaging dungeons right away. Then there are different starting scenarios - some start you at level 1, others start you at level 5; some start you with the most basic sword, some give you a better sword, and you don't need any exploit to get an awesome sword in "Assassin" because it's given to you right at the start. Put all that together and it's entirely reasonable for some players to want to use exploits to get a better start in some circumstances.

Some players may indeed want to go all-out and use cheatmode. And some just want a bit of a boost at the beginning, preferring to use in-game methods rather than outright cheating.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

There are various problems with the notion that if players use exploits to survive the early game then there's a fundamental problem with balance. For one thing, there are different types of players, including ace gamers with lightning reflexes who can blitz through any game you put in front of them, and casual gamers who, shall we say, don't exactly have lightning reflexes.

Wouldn't you say that is what the Difficulty Levels are for?
That's what I figured anyway....

Though of course difficulty affects a lot of different things, both in fighting but also on a more strategic and economic front.
So perhaps that indeed cannot always work accross the board.

In any case, I think we have established that no action is required based on the stuff we discussed here.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

About the difficulty levels: In other games in other times I learned to max out all the settings to put the maximum stress on the game in order to flush out any gremlins. So I play Swashbuckler. It is very difficult and is in fact not even fun. But over time I have gotten used to it and when I try the lower levels I find them boring. What I like best about it is that I can die at any time and any place. And I do. A lot. Even at level 20 I am still a one stroke kill at times. So the game is more about using your wits than just charging in, which is how modern games are designed.

At the normal levels players should not need those extra weapons so much and they are already pretty difficult to get, except for the Nicholas Sharp blade.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Sounds good to me! Thanks, @ Hylie Pistof!