Feature Request Make loot from boarding smaller or harder to get rid off

[Grey Roger]

I still say that while it would be realistic to remove the gold from any enemies killed by NPC's, removing their weapons would not be. Naval crews' equipment would be subject to inspection, primarily to ensure that they're keeping it in good order, so any looted weapons would soon be noticed. Anyone hiding loot from a pirate captain would probably soon be looking a shark in the face. Privateers would probably be somewhere between the two.

The "problem" was only raised because of the possibility of giving enemy naval crews standardised weapons which could be too valuable, and is easily countered by giving them weapons which are not all that expensive - a navy wouldn't issue expensive weapons as standard anyway.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

True. Expensive weapons would be presentation swords for officers, not standard equipment.
And even then... would you use a presentation sword for fighting? I think they might have been used primarily "to look good", no?

Increasing difficulty by reducing the profitability of looting does seem interesting to me though.
But what's the best way of handling that?

 

[Grey Roger]

Maybe define a few more swords with low price but reasonable rating and high level. Part of the problem is that at high level, minlevel kicks in and many of the lesser swords are unavailable, meaning things like Hibernians and Polish Szablas become more common because there aren't many alternatives. Drop the price of the swept-hilt rapier - its stats are comparable to the Pappenheimer Rapier and the back-bladed sword, it's more common than either, yet it's a lot more expensive. It's practically standard issue in enemy crew until minlevel raises the stakes even higher, which means it's also standard issue in my crew. (I don't sell good or fine blades. They go into the weapons locker. I've an absurd number of swept-hilt rapiers and Venetian cutlasses in there. )

But is this really a problem? Yes, if you've plundered a whole convoy and looted all their swords, you may have a load of swords which you can sell for perhaps a few thousand each. You've also got three ships which, depending on their cargo, will bring you a few hundred thousand or maybe even a few million each. Looted weapons are not exactly a pirate's or privateer's main source of income.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Maybe have promotion blades that are unique be the ONLY ones that actually sell for a lot of coin?
So when you get one, you can either use it or sell it for a nice profit.
But any weapons used by regular characters will not be worth that much.

Consequence would be that you WILL be able to get high-level weaponry quite easily once you have the required minlevel.
Is that a problem?

 

[Grey Roger]

You can get high-level weaponry easily once you hit the right minlevel anyway. Partly because you're now allowed to find them, and partly because you're not allowed to find the lesser stuff. (Though for some reason a lot of enemies seem to like using the kilij...)

True, if you buy your weapons rather than take them from your enemies, you will be more easily able to afford the good stuff if it's cheaper. But then, all you need is to find a merchantman stuffed with gold or silver and you can probably stock up on Hibernians to your heart's content anyway.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

So how about:
- Remove all money from corpses that were NOT killed by player or officers
- Remove all other items from corpses that were killed by characters NOT in the player party
- Ensure no generally used weapons are actually worth a lot of gold

Then you only loot if someone allied to you made the kill. And you don't get the extra gold if it was your crew.
And even then, you still won't make huge amounts of money from it.

 

[Levis]

So how about:
- Remove all money from corpses that were NOT killed by player or officers
- Remove all other items from corpses that were killed by characters NOT in the player party
- Ensure no generally used weapons are actually worth a lot of gold

Then you only loot if someone allied to you made the kill. And you don't get the extra gold if it was your crew.
And even then, you still won't make huge amounts of money from it.

sounds good to me

 

[Grey Roger]

Remove the money - yes, they'd be able to pocket it and hide it away somewhere.
Remove the items - no, they'd have to hand over the stuff next time their kit was inspected.
No generally used weapons to be worth much - yes, general issue weapons wouldn't have been expensive.

So you get your wish that looting doesn't make all that much money, and I get my wish to continue supplying officers and crew with weapons taken in combat. And everyone else gets to buy their favourite sword in large quantities from the next store or street merchant, using the money they got for selling the captured ship and its cargo.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Remove the money - yes, they'd be able to pocket it and hide it away somewhere.
Remove the items - no, they'd have to hand over the stuff next time their kit was inspected.
No generally used weapons to be worth much - yes, general issue weapons wouldn't have been expensive.

That's what I said, right?
I suggest only to remove the items from corpses killed by anyone NOT in the player group.
This to prevent the exploit of looting corpses generated by two AI groups fighting.
So killed by player/officer/crew = items will be there. Killed by other NPC = no lootable corpse.

 

[Grey Roger]

That's what I said, right?
I suggest only to remove the items from corpses killed by anyone NOT in the player group.

You said:

- Remove all other items from corpses that were killed by characters NOT in the player party

I thought the player party is the player and officers, not the random crew as well.

This to prevent the exploit of looting corpses generated by two AI groups fighting.
So killed by player/officer/crew = items will be there. Killed by other NPC = no lootable corpse.

That's fair enough, though it's nothing to do with boarding because there won't be two other NPC groups fighting - it's always player/officers/crew against enemy crew. If there's a battle going on between two entirely independent NPC groups such as the Dutch and French at St. Martin then it's reasonable for you not to get anything from them fighting each other.

But you should still be able to retrieve weapons and armour from your own crew who got killed in boarding. So if removing equipment from corpses killed by NPC's prevents that then I'll still have to prefer that it is left out. (Yes, the enemy crew would loot your guys. And then you'd loot them when you've won the battle. So either the kit is transferred to the enemy NPC and you can then loot it back, or for simplicity, just leave it where it is.)

 

[Levis]

I need to think about how to do it well in code but I think doing something like:

If a character is killed check by who
if the killer is part of the main character group do nothing
ELSE transfer the items to the killer

This way you will still be able to retrieve items from your crew only they will be held by other characters. But if two groups fight each other the winning group will have all the loot so you can loot them unless you kill them too and loot them. Which I call fair .

 

[Grey Roger]

If it would make things simpler, just transfer all items to the killer. Your officers get to keep what they grab unless you go into their pockets. Your crew will presumably return their stuff, including anything they looted, to the weapons locker. Enemies get the stuff they looted, then someone on your side gets it back when they kill said enemies. It does have the side effect that if you gave your crew armour and the enemy killed one of them anyway then one of the enemy now has armour, which should make the rest of the fight a little more interesting... Meanwhile in St. Martin, the Dutch and French loot each other and you don't get any of it unless you join in, which is certainly fair.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I thought the player party is the player and officers, not the random crew as well.

I meant it as 'bAllies', e.g. any and all characters allied with the player.
I might not have been entirely clear there, but I hope this clarifies it....

That's fair enough, though it's nothing to do with boarding because there won't be two other NPC groups fighting - it's always player/officers/crew against enemy crew. If there's a battle going on between two entirely independent NPC groups such as the Dutch and French at St. Martin then it's reasonable for you not to get anything from them fighting each other.

Indeed that suggestion wouldn't affect boarding.

But you should still be able to retrieve weapons and armour from your own crew who got killed in boarding. So if removing equipment from corpses killed by NPC's prevents that then I'll still have to prefer that it is left out. (Yes, the enemy crew would loot your guys. And then you'd loot them when you've won the battle. So either the kit is transferred to the enemy NPC and you can then loot it back, or for simplicity, just leave it where it is.)

Good point. How about generating a corpse if the attack or the enemy is allied to the player?

If a character is killed check by who
if the killer is part of the main character group do nothing
ELSE transfer the items to the killer

Do we really need looting to occur between NPCs as well?
It's an interesting thought.... But then I reckon enemies should also do an auto-equip straight afterwards!

 

[Grey Roger]

I meant it as 'bAllies', e.g. any and all characters allied with the player.
I might not have been entirely clear there, but I hope this clarifies it....

In that case, note that in several cases NPC's are assigned to the player's group, probably in an attempt to avoid the sort of inter-group relation weirdness that happens if they aren't. In "Tales of a Sea Hawk", where you escort Ewan Glover and his boatload of British soldiers to a beach near Bridgetown and then have to fight a French patrol, the British soldiers are assigned to the player group, for example.

Good point. How about generating a corpse if the attack or the enemy is allied to the player?

I thought a corpse is always generated anyway. Except, for some reason, if the dead person is one of your officers. So you can loot dead enemies and you can also loot your own dead crew, thus retrieving any equipment you gave them via the weapons locker, and also getting a bit of ammo for yourself if you gave your crew guns. That's how it is now, anyway.

Do we really need looting to occur between NPCs as well?
It's an interesting thought.... But then I reckon enemies should also do an auto-equip straight afterwards!

Hence my comment that if enemy crew loot your dead crew and you've been giving your crew armour, then some of the enemy now have armour.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

In that case, note that in several cases NPC's are assigned to the player's group, probably in an attempt to avoid the sort of inter-group relation weirdness that happens if they aren't. In "Tales of a Sea Hawk", where you escort Ewan Glover and his boatload of British soldiers to a beach near Bridgetown and then have to fight a French patrol, the British soldiers are assigned to the player group, for example.

That might be OK. The player is part of the fight too, right?

I thought a corpse is always generated anyway. Except, for some reason, if the dead person is one of your officers. So you can loot dead enemies and you can also loot your own dead crew, thus retrieving any equipment you gave them via the weapons locker, and also getting a bit of ammo for yourself if you gave your crew guns. That's how it is now, anyway.

I think at the moment that is indeed the case. I was thinking of not doing that, unless the player was involved in the killing (e.g. kill BY your group or IN your group).

Hence my comment that if enemy crew loot your dead crew and you've been giving your crew armour, then some of the enemy now have armour.

That note was indeed inspired by your own suggestion.

 

[Grey Roger]

That might be OK. The player is part of the fight too, right?

Yes, that's the whole point - by putting the British soldiers into the player's party, there are only two factions involved, you and the enemy. Weirdness such as the British attacking you when they've finished the French is therefore avoided. Some battles in "Hornblower" work in a similar manner.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Yes, that's the whole point - by putting the British soldiers into the player's party, there are only two factions involved, you and the enemy. Weirdness such as the British attacking you when they've finished the French is therefore avoided. Some battles in "Hornblower" work in a similar manner.

No problem then. Enemies killed by the English soldiers were killed by characters allied to you, so you do get to loot them.

 

[Tingyun]

I still think sailors looting enemies of weapons/items is fully realistic--in early modern history, looting of defeated enemies on the battlefield was often part of the expected pay from being a soldier. So, sure, the captain could do an inspection of the crew and discover they took swords from the enemy, but if they are allowed to take part in that sort of looting (as an incentive to actually risk their life and be part of the smaller boarding party, they do need some incentive beyond their couple of gold a month, no?), then the inspection discovering their loot would just justify a pat on the back for them having killed an enemy.

I think proposing absolute bars on lootings for common soldiers enforced by formal inspections sounds a bit like imposing our current military discipline on a time when it wouldn't have necessarily been the same. I did some preliminary looking into the issue, and looting on the battlefield was common in these time periods, though it looks like some of the more professional armies may have begun to take steps to reduce it in the later periods.

For privateers with signed articles, it does seem they commonly forbade personal looting, at least from the example articles I could find--makes sense, they were dividing it all and wanted to get it all in the common pot. For privateers without any signed articles and instead on salary, I would say personal looting of items and swords makes sense, as how else could you possibly convince people to risk their lives in the vanguard of a boarding action for 20 gold a month?

On the more general point of sword prices, I agree they are generally inflated. I think reducing all sword prices by 50% is a good starting point, and then maybe some could be reduced further. I have actually been playing with a 50% reduction across the board in melee weapons recently, and it makes the prices much more sensible when compared to ships and stuff. I left gun and item prices alone, since they seem reasonable.

Here is the table I have been using with all melee weapon prices reduced to 50% of original value (so with the division work already done ) (unique swords and the jeweled dagger kept at full price):

EDIT: removed the lines and uploaded an inititem.c file with the changes, but use winmerge if using, I may have changed others parts outside of this table.

EDIT2: This included in the file I posted in the reduce effects of skill thread, plus the other changes. So best to use that one instead: Fix in Progress - Reduce Effect From Skill Items | Page 2 | PiratesAhoy!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

If you have proposed changes to the stats, please post your entire initItems.c file.
That's easier for us to add to the game (using WinMerge!).

 

[Tingyun]

Haha, sorry about that, just added it in an edit Pieter