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Musings on The Setting of Pirates of The Caribbean

I came up with the fantasy stuff because, after all, Calypso IS at large again. So how would we handle that? Personally I agree with you though and I'd like to keep the over-the-top fantasy stuff out of the film as much as possible. So that's why I put it at the beginning of the film only. That way those people who DO like that kind of stuff get what they want in like the first half hour or hour at most of the film, then the film turns to what WE want. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dev.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":d:" border="0" alt="dev.gif" />
 
Yes, they will have to endure the efforts that we have to tediously produced. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dev.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":d:" border="0" alt="dev.gif" /> MWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dev.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":d:" border="0" alt="dev.gif" />
 
I think it's a good thing that we are doing some brainstorming on an AWE sequel now that we have got a pretty good idea of our ideas for the prequel. If we have an idea of where the whole story arc is headed eventually in the last film, we can incorporate some of those ideas into the prequel story again, binding the series together. Perhaps there can be some new characters introduced in the prequel that play a part in the AWE sequel as well. Does Nathaniel Edwards need to die at the end of the first film anyway? If he turns out to be a really good and interesting character, why put his character development to an end? He could lead the EITC in the AWE sequel, for example. And Jack and him could keep their feeling of mutual respect and friendship and perhaps the EITC will be the good guys in the AWE sequel and Jack and Edwards could again be friendly without being on opposing sides? Just a random thought; but it might be worth speculating about.

Also the French captain from the prequel could be a recurring character. And of course the Pirate Lords must have some part to play in the post AWE film as well, because these characters were pretty much useless in AWE. All they did was argue and cheer after the Black Pearl and Flying Dutchman did all the hard work. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wacko:" border="0" alt="wacko.gif" />
 
It's unfortunate really that the pirates succeeded in freeing Calypso at the end of AWE; now we have to deal with that in the AWE sequel and this will probably mean that we have to put some fantasy elements into at least the beginning of the film. What was the point of that whirlpool anyway? Where do Calypso's allegiances lie? With Davy Jones? With the EITC? With the pirates? With herself? That whirlpool really did nothing to help any party; it just made things more complicated. Couldn't we turn things in such a way that Calypso's turning into crabs, the giant whirlpool and Davy Jones' death can be taken to mean the end of Calypso, so that rather than having to deal with Calypso being at large once again at the beginning of the AWE sequel, Calypso has now gone from this world completely? Probably not, but perhaps worth pondering about.

If we DO have to add some weird fantasy elements into the beginning of the film, what kind of things would you like to see? I would like to see a sea serpent like those seen on ancient maps. There doesn't necessarily need to be a fight with it; just some shots of it swimming around. We've had plenty of Kraken fights already in DMC; no need doing the same thing again. Mermaids and/or sirens could perhaps also be used. And my previous idea of Scylla and Charibdis wouldn't be so nonsensical if they guard the way to one of the otherworldly places shown on Sao Feng's map. Also having a real <i>flying</i> ship might be fun. I think they robbed us of that by turning the Flying Dutchman into what is essentially the "Diving Scott".

I also found it unfortunate that it was a Chinese junk passing over world's end in AWE. I already saw an Oriental ship pass over the edge of the world in <i>Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas</i>. Shame they had to reuse that image. I would have much preferred seeing another ship pass over there, a galleon of sorts, but preferrably not the Black Pearl. That would've been a much more classic image. Perhaps in our post AWE story, with Davy Jones' death, his locker has changed from a pirate's worst nightmare into Will Turner's locker, which would be a pirate's biggest dream? Perhaps that is where the pirates will find their otherworldly hideout? If we visit the locker again, we could use that as an excuse to redo the over-the-edge scene with a <i>proper</i> ship this time. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dev.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":d:" border="0" alt="dev.gif" />

Anyway: We CAN go quite over-the-top at the beginning of the film to get the point accross that with Calypso released, the world has erupted into complete nonsensical chaos. That would explain everybody trying to end this chaos, which will result into a much more normal world halfway into the film. That way the people who want to see fantasy in a PotC film are not disappointed, but we still get a realistic second half to the film.
 
I think what we'd want to see would be flashes, examples if you will, of these things breaking out. Like the medley of images in Ghostbuster. But all the myths should probably be as contemporary to conventional mariner superstitions as possible. Albatross, odd skies, a sea serpent (not Kraken), mermaids - that kind of thing. Calypso is the only mythological element in PoTC that doesn't really fit into the Caribbean - even the Aztec angle is plausible but Calypso is a Greek character from the Ulysses myth. The character herself fits somewhat but not her conventional origin and history. However, we do associate Calypso music with the Caribbean! So you see how the writers came up with some of this stuff. And the epicenter of weird does seem to be the Caribbean so it's quite suitable that Jack Sparrow, somehow, became the Pirate Lord of the Caribbean. Is that angle covered in the films?

If there is a gateway to another portal to a Valhalla for pirates, my money would place it inside a geographic triangle one corner of which must be centered on Bermuda...iff'n ye follows me...
 
Good points guys! OddjobXL i like what you said about the bermuda triangle. Maybe ships HAVE been disappearing because it is a portal to a pirate haven. Also i like the idea of the locker being turned into a pirate paradise. But one problem, remember that the ship that goes over Worlds End is destroyed. The dutchman is not because it can submerge. Pieter i would have lost interest in Pirates of the caribbean if the Flying Dutchman actually flew. I like it better of your funny way of putting it "Diving Scott". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

I could see placing some characters in the prequel that would be intertwined into the sequel of AWE. That would be great. Not to be Johnny Raincloud, but thats only if disney is willing to accept it. I hope they will, because we put alot of work into it. If they do we can tell them to stay tuned for the sequel script. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Edwards being incharge of the EITC? How would that happen? If he helps the pearl escape then Beckett would, on his most jolly day, (Assuming he has one) sentence Edwards to be locked up. And with beckett dead what if the guard still wont let him go? Maybe just forget about him in his cell? We must plan ahead for many things that could fit in the sequel.

I also like the Commodores idea of the pirates aiding the American Revolution, and my proposition of Jack Sparrow meeting George Washington, that would be funny!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

And keep churning out new ideas, were just throwing things around, and keeping pieces that might fit the bigger puzzle.
 
Well, if the EIC is going to flip and become "good" I really think the Governor's old daughter is in a unique position to make that happen. She leads a pirate faction yet also knows her way around the civilized world and civilized politics. She'd benefit from an end to the supernatural <i>if</i> that also lifted the curse on Will Turner and let them be together. Also by bringing Elizabeth back to civilization the story comes full circle. Maybe Will ends up as the new governor of Port Royal (or we see it sink, as it historically did, and he becomes governor of Bermuda instead...and the truth about the Triangle is something he'll keep secret to the end).

Not sure I'd bring the Americans into this, it could work, but it'd be a distraction from the central themes of colonial imperialism versus piratical anarchy. That said, for some reason Key West at the very southern tip of Florida is seen as a real piratical hangout though, truth be told, it's more over-the-hill bohemians and aging hippies. Still..if someone wanted to work an American theme in this would be the best alternative to the Bermuda Triangle's gate for a retiring pirate. In fact, if Sparrow does manage to get immortality, but refuses to retreat from the real world as the Age of Piracy dies, I wouldn't be at all shocked to see someone looking or acting like him down there. I can even see him loading tourists onto his "Pirate" themed trawler for a spin and getting an offer to consult on this exhibition some guy named Disney wants to build at his theme park..."Hey, this boat is somethin' else pal. How'd you come up with all these decorations? Skeleton pirates? Now that's novel..."
 
I love that Bermuda Triangle angle. Sort of gives that area an original purpose and those other ships or planes that went missing later on were just ignorant accidents caused by sailing over a place earlier sailors knew to steer clear of.
 
<!--quoteo(post=230697:date=Jan 2 2008, 09:37 PM:name=Old Salt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Old Salt @ Jan 2 2008, 09:37 PM) [snapback]230697[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love that Bermuda Triangle angle. Sort of gives that area an original purpose and those other ships or planes that went missing later on were just ignorant accidents caused by sailing over a place earlier sailors knew to steer clear of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Could be that...or could be...

...slow zoom in on some grey dots racing over an undulating, tempestuous, pattern of white and blue-black...rain everywhere...mist...dots resolve slowly into WWII era divebombers....cut to inside the cockpit...."The compass is going crazy, chief. Where are we? I can't see a..." The pilot's begoggled face lifts to peer ahead where, through the glass, a skeleton's face leers back at him. One wearing a pirate bandanna and weilding a cutlass!

Cut to tourists loading onto a fishing boat decorated to look suspiciously like the Black Pearl sometime in the early 1950's. The colors are muted. Period cars and clothes. "Oh, now, you shouldn't believe <i>everything</i> you read, mate." A familiar cloying voice enters the picture before the form does. Jack Sparrow. Trailed by a family group, clearly tourists, which includes a precocious, curious, lad that picks up things to look at them causing Jack to, quickly, snatch them back and replace them. Clearly annoyed but all the while playing the charming, if somewhat creepy, host as he speaks to one of the men, a distinguished white-haired gentleman. "Bermuda Triangle indeed, Master Disney? That does sound <i>highly</i>...no, don't touch that! But pirates, well..." Sparrow leans in close and holds out a grubby hand for what looks like a solicitation for a bribe. Boarding passes are handed over instead. The camera lingers on the hand as the voiceover continues. "...for that you've come to the right place." The boarding pass turns into Disney tickets in a ticket taker's hand as the camera pans out to show the Pirates of the Caribbean ride at Disneyland.

Or something along those lines. Meh. Brain's gone down for the night.
 
The Bermuda Triangle is definitly something worth exploring. That could be one of the other portals that can be found with Sao Feng's map. And reusing Davy Jones' locker was just a random thought. I would still like the <i>proper</i> classic image of a three-masted galleon going over the edge put to film though. One thought I had for the post-end credits scene: A modern engine-powered ship with some sort of Ahab-like crazy captain steering his ship straight to edge of the world, Sao Feng's map in his hands, repeating Barbossa's words: "Let her run straight and true!" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/urgh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":urgh" border="0" alt="urgh.gif" />

Some sort of "crazy mythical stuff" montage is definitly a good way of getting the point accross without spending too much screentime on it. We could have some actual encounters with supernatural stuff in rest the film, but we don't need to have much of that if we already got the point accross before with the montage. Good one. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/doff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":doff" border="0" alt="doff.gif" />

And nice thoughts there, OddjobXL! Also definitly worth exploring. I think Orlando and Keira are not very interested in reprising their roles again though. At least not right now. Johnny and Geoffrey definitly <i>are</i> though. And Jack and Barbossa are those characters I REALLY want back for the AWE sequel. Will and Elizabeth have pretty much played their part as far as I'm concerned, but perhaps there could be a small role for their characters in the AWE sequel. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":yes" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />

<!--quoteo(post=230508:date=Jan 2 2008, 06:23 PM:name=Mercer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mercer @ Jan 2 2008, 06:23 PM) [snapback]230508[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I could see placing some characters in the prequel that would be intertwined into the sequel of AWE. That would be great. Not to be Johnny Raincloud, but thats only if disney is willing to accept it. I hope they will, because we put alot of work into it. If they do we can tell them to stay tuned for the sequel script. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->There's two options: We can't get them to do it or we can. If we can, then that is definitly good. If we can't, at least we'd still have two really good and interesting scripts for our own and others' enjoyment.

<!--quoteo(post=230508:date=Jan 2 2008, 06:23 PM:name=Mercer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mercer @ Jan 2 2008, 06:23 PM) [snapback]230508[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edwards being incharge of the EITC? How would that happen? If he helps the pearl escape then Beckett would, on his most jolly day, (Assuming he has one) sentence Edwards to be locked up. And with beckett dead what if the guard still wont let him go? Maybe just forget about him in his cell? We must plan ahead for many things that could fit in the sequel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Perhaps he DOESN'T help the Pearl escape then. Beckett wanted the Wench, but he sent Edwards (not Mercer) after Jack to get rid of Jack and regain the Wench for The Company. Edwards is still friendly to Jack, but knows he cannot join Jack in piracy. So when Edwards finally corners Jack at the Indonesia coast, he has the Wench burnt instead of capturing her for Beckett. He goes back to Beckett and tells his story. Beckett is not pleased and removes Edwards from EITC employ. Edwards will now be a poor man in London, but he will be ready to return to working for the EITC when Beckett is killed and a new head of the EITC is needed.

<!--quoteo(post=230508:date=Jan 2 2008, 06:23 PM:name=Mercer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mercer @ Jan 2 2008, 06:23 PM) [snapback]230508[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also like the Commodores idea of the pirates aiding the American Revolution, and my proposition of Jack Sparrow meeting George Washington, that would be funny!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Definitly a lot of interesting story potential there. And it would be completely different from what we've seen so far in the PotC films. And that's what Disney wants right now: They want to go in a new, different direction and we should come up with some non-stupid ones that they could, in theory, use. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />
 
this reminds me of a story i once read, which is entirely true, but very unknown. just as a point of interest, it's even dutch. i don't really know what relevance it has to the topic, but the talk about dissapearing ships reminded me of it. here's the story of Bernard Fokke (taken from 'the book of the sea' by T. C. Bridges):

"Fokke, who lived in the latter half of the seventeenth century, was very different from the ordinary type of Hollander. he was a reckless fear-nothing who boasted that his vessel could beat any other afloat. to make good his boast he cased her masts in iron and crowded more sail upon here than any other ship of the time dared carry. it is on record that he made the passage from Rotterdam to the east indies in ninety days, a feat of that period savouring of the miraculous. the story goes that in his anxiety to beat even his own record Fokke sold his soul to the evil one, and a his life's end he and his ship both dissapeared. transported to the scene of his old exploits, and with no other crew than his boatswain, cook, and pilot, he is condemned to strive endlessly against heavy gales that ever sweep him back."

sounds a bit like the flying dutchman doesn't it? that guy must have made a clipper or something.
 
I remember that story, but I confused it with the original Flying Dutchman story. Apparently they're two seperate stories then. I originally thought it was Vanderdecken who had iron masts and made a pact with the devil and was then cursed to sail around Cape Horn forever. However, that thought is false since it is the Cape of Good Hope that is haunted by the Flying Dutchman. Thanks for posting that one! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/doff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":doff" border="0" alt="doff.gif" />
We could use some more of those real old sailor's myths. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />
 
oh, i've got a whole book about them! ghost stories, old and fairly modern, tales of derelict ships, seamonsters, real and not, things like that. Fokke is also supposedly seen around that area in fact. i'll post another one. i've also got tales of real-life extremely old ships. for example, the italian barque Anita, scrapped in 1902, was supposedly built as far back as 1548!

here's one of the most famous tales of the flying dutchman:

"...but apart from such natural phenomena, there are things seen at sea by no means so easy of explanation. we have no less credible a witness to the appearance of a true phantom ship than his majesty king george. the incident is recounted in 'the cruise of the bacchante'. on 11th july, 1881, at four o'clock in the morning, a spectral ship crossed the bows of the vessel in which the king and his brother where cruising round the world. the apparition is described in these words:

"the flying dutchman crossed our bows. a strange red light, as of a phantom ship all aglow, in the midst of which light the masts, spars, and sails of a brig two hundred yards destant stood up in strong relief. thirteen persons altogether saw her, but wether it was Van Diemen, or the flying dutchman, or who else, must remain unknown. the Tourmaline and Cleopatra, which were sailing on our starboard bow, flashed to ask whether we had seen the strange red light."

it is a curious fact that six hours later the able seaman who was first to sight this terrifying apparition from the fore-top-mast crosstrees and was killed."

any idea who Van Diemen is? i don't think he's mentioned in the book.
 
<a href="http://www.vanhunks.com/cape1/flyingdutchman1.html" target="_blank">Here's</a> some more stuff on the Flying Dutchman with also that mention of the "Van Diemen". However, I can't seem to find the actual myth of the "Van Diemen" on the internet. A ghost ship indeed! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/piratesing.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shock" border="0" alt="piratesing.gif" />
 
that one with the pirates is a funny one. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile2.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":))" border="0" alt="smile2.gif" /> trying to play ghostship themselves and get spooked by a real one! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="xD:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> they where so terrified that they handed themselves in!
 
You know OddjobXL this is so weird, i had the same thought about the pirates at Disney's POTC attraction being the ACTUAL pirates from POTC!!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> Thats funny. Anyways, i think we shouldnt be so...black-and-white about the mystical and real elements being cut in half, mystic at the beginning, and real at the end. I would advise layering it; keeping a bit of realism to the non real, realistic-mysticism if you will. Make it believable. Not like in the movie 300 when they just randomly started throwing monsters around on the battle of Thermopylae. It was one helluva movie, just kind of random at some points.
 
Haven't seen 300, but I do agree with you: The cut between "fantasy half" and "realistic half" shouldn't be that clear-cut. Sure there should be some notable difference, but not the sudden 100% removal of anything fantasy. However, I do think that there should be a line drawn somewhere between over-the-top and believable fantasy. As long as Calypso is at large, things are over-the-top and once they managed to get rid of her, things would tone down back to the levels of fantasy of the prequel and CotBP: Just a slight little bit when needed for story purposes, but not too much.
 
And I think perhaps we should all post a list of things we would like to see in the future PotC films and we can see if they already are incorporated in the scripts. If not, we could try to put them in somewhere. Preferrably in a smooth way where they'd actually fit, of course. And please don't say "aliens and spaceships". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wp" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" />
 
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe Will ends up as the new governor of Port Royal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think that will be a little tough as now he can't step foot on land but once every 10 years <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

As for Beckett seemingly acceptive of the supernatural, well he always has a calm manner about him through the movies. The only time he appears rattled is the moments leading up to his death, but even then he keeps a cool head. He knows it's his time. I think the higher ups in the EITC would be dismissive of these myths, it's just that Beckett knows better.
 
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