Politics (but let's keep it civilized)

[Pieter Boelen]

Split of from the <a href="http://forum.piratesahoy.net//index.php?showtopic=12048" target="_blank">Introducing the USA</a> thread.

<!--quoteo(post=326860:date=Jun 9 2009, 04:26 PM:name=Commodore John Paul Jones)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Commodore John Paul Jones @ Jun 9 2009, 04:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm leaving for <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Military_Institute" target="_blank">VMI</a> on June 26th and won't have much time for any PotC modding for the next four years. I'll be back in town from July 25th to August 16th, as I get a break between summer classes and the beginning of my first year. Once I start my first year... I'll disappear until Thanksgiving and then until Christmas.

(Be sure to read the part about the Ratline on the VMI wikipedia article. That's what I'm about to endure...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Agh... that doesn't sound so very nice. Of course I don't particularly like "military" much in the first place.
But that is an unfair generalization. It's war that I REALLY don't like.

The whole notion of having different countries in this world doesn't make much sense to me either.
We all live on this Earth and we should all work together towards a better future, regardless of culture or nationality or whatever.
But then those are my crazy philosophical ideas. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" />

 

[Peter Willemoes]

War is the consequence of failed diplomacy. Somehow, some people always want diplomacy to fail, and bewildered patriots are like lemmings in their hands. Those are the people I hate most <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

 

[zorglub]

<!--quoteo(post=326869:date=Jun 9 2009, 10:38 AM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ Jun 9 2009, 10:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agh... that doesn't sound so very nice. Of course I don't particularly like "military" much in the first place.
But that is an unfair generalization. It's war that I REALLY don't like.

The whole notion of having different countries in this world doesn't make much sense to me either.
We all live on this Earth and we should all work together towards a better future, regardless of culture or nationality or whatever.
But then those are my crazy philosophical ideas. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So Pieter, you are an anarchist apparently... or perhaps you meant you'd want a single, huge mega organisation on top of everything?

 

[Commodore John Paul Jones]

<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agh... that doesn't sound so very nice. Of course I don't particularly like "military" much in the first place.
But that is an unfair generalization. It's war that I REALLY don't like.

The whole notion of having different countries in this world doesn't make much sense to me either.
We all live on this Earth and we should all work together towards a better future, regardless of culture or nationality or whatever.
But then those are my crazy philosophical ideas. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh... Earth as one. Sounds like Star Trek to me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

<!--QuoteBegin-'PeterWillemoes'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('PeterWillemoes')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->War is the consequence of failed diplomacy. Somehow, some people always want diplomacy to fail, and bewildered patriots are like lemmings in their hands. Those are the people I hate most.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a patriot - I love my country. I love it because thousands of Americans have fought and died for me. I feel a sense of duty to future generations of Americans, free peoples regardless of their nationality, and the benefit of the human race in general.
All humans are free beings, and while I do believe some are to lead and others to follow, there is a point when someone crosses the line between organization and pure oppression.
War is caused by many more reasons than failed diplomacy. The War of 1812 and the First World War, to name a couple, may have started due to failed diplomacy... but the American Revolution and the American Civil War started because the belligerents believed in something (be it freedom, a way of life, or a preserved Union). The Second World War was started by pure hatred for a religion and other political parties and aggression on the free world, and the world responded as the Allies. The War on Terrorism was begun because one side believed in extreme radical views and the other responded to their attack on thousands of innocent people.
In short... how could diplomacy solve Hitler's Third Reich? Despite Congress' efforts... diplomacy would not solve King George III's oppression of the colonies.
Sometimes, war is the only way.
Sometimes, war <i>is</i> diplomacy.

At any rate lets not turn this topic into a political debate. As free human beings, we have the right to disagree... but if we want to continue this discussion, let us post it in another section and continue it as gentlemen.

 

[Peter Willemoes]

Arrh?..I would'nt exactly call thinking out of national and cultural boundaries "anarchism", a simple virtual sailor? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
Pieter just did'nt grow cynical yet, and Dalai Lama really is a nice thought <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Commodore: I dont know what that college will lead you into, but your anciestors fought and died for you to live. Not for you to erase and rewind. But this choice is part of your freedom and for you to choose. Yes, some is lead, and some is to be lead. Oh, yes..and believe me - the way you are lead, is the way you will be leading others.
There is a time for peace, and a time for war - so just remember, that a warrior should be able to live in both worlds and you should stay fine - and sane <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Have a nice stay, mate!

 

[Thomas the Terror]

Not going to happen. Not within a 100 years though. And I have rather a lot of different countries, with a lot of different cultures. Then the world is not so monotonous, but a bit spiced up. And besides, every thing that looks like anarchism doesn't work. As long as there are people who want a bit more than others, this can't happen.

 

[Commodore John Paul Jones]

<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=PeterWillemoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PeterWillemoes)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commodore: I dont know what that college will lead you into, but your anciestors fought and died for you to live. Not for you to erase and rewind. But this choice is part of your freedom and for you to choose. Yes, some is lead, and some is to be lead. Oh, yes..and believe me - the way you are lead, is the way you will be leading others.
There is a time for peace, and a time for war - so just remember, that a warrior should be able to live in both worlds and you should stay fine - and sane <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Have a nice stay, mate!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always remember the quote of a great man.

<i>"An honorable peace is always my first wish! I take no delight in the effusion of human blood... however, if this war is to continue... then I shall take a most active part in it!"</i>
- John Paul Jones

And don't worry... I'm not one of those war hawks. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

Thanks for the well wishes mate! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

 

[Pieter Boelen]

<!--quoteo(post=326923:date=Jun 9 2009, 08:20 PM:name=Commodore John Paul Jones)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Commodore John Paul Jones @ Jun 9 2009, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At any rate lets not turn this topic into a political debate. As free human beings, we have the right to disagree... but if we want to continue this discussion, let us post it in another section and continue it as gentlemen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Agreed and done.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

First of all I want to apologize for bringing such a topic up at all. Unfortunately events are happing in The Netherlands
that remind me a bit too much for comfort of certain events that happened around 70 years ago in this same general area
that we swore should never ever happen again. It appears that many people here are again becoming increasingly narrow,
nationalistic and, shall I say, <i>selfish</i> in their opinions and I am not happy with that even in the slightest.

In fact anarchism is definitly not a good idea, since it'd result in a mess. And cultural diversity is certainly not a bad thing either.
I just wished that people would be able to think more global and with a vision for the future. And some idealism thrown in too, for good measure.
Indeed the world as represented in Star Trek gives me the general impression of what we should all try to aim for.

I'll agree that not all war is bad and sometimes it is even necessary. But I resent the fact that it is sometimes necessary.
Personally I believe that it shouldn't be neccesary and doesn't need to be necessary. But that requires a change in thinking of people on a grand scale.
I do not see it happening any time soon either, but I do hope it'll happen and the more people can get around such thinking, the earlier it'll be.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as different people of different philosophies and nationalities and religions can respect each other, things should be pretty good.
The way we all digitally live and work together here on this forum is actually a small example of what I'd like to see on a grander scale.
Here we have many different people with different nationalities, beliefs and abilities, but we all respect each other and work together to great effect.

And that concludes my idealistic, uncynical and possibly somewhat misguided rant. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

 

[Pieter Boelen]

To the above I would like to add that despite my personal aversion to joining any part of the military, I'm not saying nobody should.
In fact at this present time in this world, there is a need for good warriors who also have a sense of honour and a reluctance to bloodshed.
I can only admire John Paul Jones' quote that John Paul Jones posted. If that is what you believe in, then the military should be happy to have you!
In any case, I wish you the best of luck with it and hope it will be everything you hope for. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/me.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="me.gif" />

 

[Thomas the Terror]

Good quote CJPJ!

I must admit that I got a bit scared when I saw the NRA members buying loads of new weapons just because they though mr Obama would forbid them. Those are a scary lot. And a bit loony.

And I got quite mad when the PVV in Holland got so many votes for the European parlement. Those nationalistic narrow thinking piggies. This was the first year I was allowed to vote. So I voted D66, the democratic party. What did you vote Pieter?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

D66 too. I used to be voting for PvdA, but I'm not quite convinced on them anymore.
And D66 seemed to be the most popular pro-Europe (and therefore contra-PVV) party available.
I hate voting for minority parties, even if I do agree with them, because a minority party can not do much.
Still... any vote cast on a party that's NOT the PVV decreases their percentage. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

Back when we had the poll on the European constitution, I voted against though, because I wasn't too impressed with the actual constitution proposed.
But I am not against a European constitution by default though. In fact, such a constitution would constitute more global thinking, which I very much support.

 

[Thomas the Terror]

Hey, but if more people vote for a minority, they can become a majority, just look at those weird PVV guys <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

 

[Pieter Boelen]

And that is absolutely true. And that is also what I belief should happen to counter to PVV. There just ISN'T a good alternative at the moment.
If you want to be a narrow nationalistic bugger, the choice is easy. If you want to be a global thinker, you haven't got a clue what to vote for. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />

 

[Peter Willemoes]

Karl Marx anachism didnt work, thats for sure! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />
I am guessing, UVV is extremely rightwinged and considered facist by european standards. Rest assured that this tendency is all over, not only in Holland. Since 9/11 - the murder of Theo van Gogh - the london bombing and the aftermath statements from muslim extremists in the keelwater of the muhammed drawings, people now have an excuse for thinking unreflected and facist thoughts out loud. Knowing terrorism is about scaring the masses - convince the populations, how their respective governments stand unguarded and unable to react on these threads - fascism is certainly not helping on all this. But nevertheless, people think, these parties are strong and able to react in protecting the populations. On the other side, we have the Autonomes, dont know what you call them, but they are probably in your countries, too. Young misguided leftwinged, throwing stones and burning cars in the streets, converting Europe to a battlefield every friday night. I am so sick of it!

Europeans are right now the lemmings, walking with no direction. We need to think, reflect and stop building this wall between democracy and cultural differencies before its too late.

If I may comment on your exchange of political views, just to describe our cultural differencies. In Scandinavia, we love to discuss politics a lot, but it is considered very unpolite to ask or tell others directly, what your political views are. Just realized, how this playing cat and mouse must seem ridiculous to others.. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

PS: Wonder what the Americans think of all this, they are probably considering us Commies the whole bunch! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

 

[Pieter Boelen]

<!--quoteo(post=327179:date=Jun 10 2009, 10:57 AM:name=PeterWillemoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PeterWillemoes @ Jun 10 2009, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Karl Marx anachism didnt work, thats for sure! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Wasn't that communism? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

<!--quoteo(post=327179:date=Jun 10 2009, 10:57 AM:name=PeterWillemoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PeterWillemoes @ Jun 10 2009, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am guessing, PVV is extremely rightwinged and considered facist by european standards. Rest assured that this tendency is all over, not only in Holland. Since 9/11 - the murder of Theo van Gogh - the london bombing and the aftermath statements from muslim extremists in the keelwater of the muhammed drawings, people now have an excuse for thinking unreflected and facist thoughts out loud.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course the murder of Theo van Gogh, and earlier the whole Pim Fortuyn debacle, happened in The Netherlands.
Also I think we're one of the most multi-cultural societies there are.
Though I admit I could be very much mistaken on that account, since I'm not so familiar with other countries, since I don't live there.
In any case, I wonder if our cultural diversity coupled with the events that took place here might contribute to this being worse here.
But even if it isn't, it's still something that needs to be countered.

<!--quoteo(post=327179:date=Jun 10 2009, 10:57 AM:name=PeterWillemoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PeterWillemoes @ Jun 10 2009, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I may comment on your exchange of political views, just to describe our cultural differencies. In Scandinavia, we love to discuss politics a lot, but it is considered very unpolite to ask or tell others directly, what your political views are. Just realized, how this playing cat and mouse must seem ridiculous to others.. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not so ridiculous. In fact, I am used to not discuss politics at all, since I used to consider that unpolite.
However, it appears it is becoming necessary. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="sad.gif" />

 

[Peter Willemoes]

<!--quoteo(post=327181:date=Jun 10 2009, 11:07 AM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ Jun 10 2009, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=327179:date=Jun 10 2009, 10:57 AM:name=PeterWillemoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PeterWillemoes @ Jun 10 2009, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Karl Marx anachism didnt work, thats for sure! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Wasn't that communism? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes. And a theory, that should stay a theory <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
Maybe I confuse anarchism into communism, because it was about equality in all aspects. But the people sent to Siberia for having a different opinion never realized this - nor did the people in Moscow, admiring the huge cars and houses owned by the leading members of the Communist Party <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

<!--quoteo(post=327181:date=Jun 10 2009, 11:07 AM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ Jun 10 2009, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course the murder of Theo van Gogh, and earlier the whole Pim Fortuyn debacle, happened in The Netherlands.
Also I think we're one of the most multi-cultural societies there are.
Though I admit I could be very much mistaken on that account, since I'm not so familiar with other countries, since I don't live there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You are absolutely right on that - and your society is considered a model to many other countries, facing the same problems. In fact, Holland being the only true multi-cultural society I know of, your model can not be realized here, as your situation is a bit too extreme compared to our situation.

<!--quoteo(post=327181:date=Jun 10 2009, 11:07 AM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ Jun 10 2009, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, I am used to not discuss politics at all, since I used to consider that unpolite.
However, it appears it is becoming necessary. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh yes it is. I dont see it as a problem, though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

[Pieter Boelen]

<!--quoteo(post=327179:date=Jun 10 2009, 10:57 AM:name=PeterWillemoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PeterWillemoes @ Jun 10 2009, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS: Wonder what the Americans think of all this, they are probably considering us Commies the whole bunch! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, the original communist idea wasn't so bad. It just isn't going to work. But neither does straight-out capitalism. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" />

<!--quoteo(post=327190:date=Jun 10 2009, 11:34 AM:name=PeterWillemoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PeterWillemoes @ Jun 10 2009, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe I confuse anarchism into communism, because it was about equality in all aspects. But the people sent to Siberia for having a different opinion never realized this - nor did the people in Moscow, admiring the huge cars and houses owned by the leading members of the Communist Party <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Haha! True, that! The big bosses were being nicely capitalistic, despite the original idea. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />

<!--quoteo(post=327190:date=Jun 10 2009, 11:34 AM:name=PeterWillemoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PeterWillemoes @ Jun 10 2009, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are absolutely right on that - and your society is considered a model to many other countries, facing the same problems. In fact, Holland being the only true multi-cultural society I know of, your model can not be realized here, as your situation is a bit too extreme compared to our situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I used to be quite proud of the way we've been handling the multi-cultural affairs in The Netherlands.
Until the PVV started messing things up. Now we can't serve as a model anymore. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="sad.gif" />

 

[Seb]

We've had our extremist bad surprise in France too... 21th of April 2002 were we got the equivalent to the Dutch PW on the second phase of the presidential elections... After that, people realised there were a danger about such political formations, who pierced thanks to the unrationnal discourse about insecurity employed by medias and by the right wing of the political scene to get votes from the elders, the less favorised social classes, and more surprisingly, the agricultors, frightened to think that urban violences could reach their villages <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

Now, that extremist formation i'm talking about lost nearly all it's influence. The main problem is that i'ts electors, and a few others, seduced by the discourse about insecurity (always the same one before each vote : "stop the urban banditism" "no to immigration!" "no turky in europa!") choosed to vote for the presidential majority party... (Sarkozy's one), the extremists even accused Sarkozy to steal their votes using their discourse. And here is the problem : same ideas, in a new clean party... something that I consider maybe more dangerous than an extremist party, revealing clearly it's intentions without subtilities.

The frenchs still remains too sensibles about that insecurity discourse, believing in it, and that tendancy were confirmed with the beginning of that strange crisis, they think they will be protected, that their interests and employs will be guaranteed against strangers and delocalisations... So, they keep voting the same way and there are some really nasty events happening in this country since two years, expulsion of immigrants without papers by the force, suicide of some immigrants at the arrival of the police, police and gouvernemental repressions, against manifestations, again social and working rights, against public services (hospital, health system, education), wrong mesures to survey the internet and the communication networks ect...

But, that's what people seem to choose, Sarkozy's party got a large majority again for the european elections... as in the rest of Europe by the way ( maybe because of this "BEWARE THE BIG BAD CRISIS *sardonic laught*" tendancy...)

The worse is there's less, and less opposition facing those guys, the left side of the political chessboard is unable to produce anything constructive in our France for example. The socialist party in particular keeps playing the "musical chairs" game and is torn into internal fights trying to know "who will be the chief", "It's me the president and not you! *five years old kid voice*"...

We've several communist partys but... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> well, you know... it more looks like Jurassic Park than looking like a real party with refreshed ideas even if they keep being nice to hear, like a good old song coming from an old radio transistor...

<i>But...</i> in all of that, we've got a good surprise last sunday, the ecologists pierced in those european elections... A good surprise because ecology might have real possibilties at the european scale, and because that unexpected event will force the left partys to reconsider their position, their discourses, and their actions if they wanna survive...

About the anarchy question (intended in the sense of a community of autonomous and intelligent people living in harmony without needing a superior hand to organise them...) I also consider it as an idealism, but a beautiful idealism, I don't believe it will happen one day, but who knows...
We've never seen any century without wars, you can't find any, but the two world wars surprised by their new violence. I think they both have their own context, a context that we can't compare to what we're living today, even if there are some similarities (crisis and protectionist reflex).
Each historical period has it's proper context that must be analysed as such, without anachronisms or fantaisist projections, we're not in the thirtie's anymore, we've 70 important years of historical changes behind us, the european construction around the German/french axis, the cold war, the end of the sovietic power, the growth of the united states, many new changes in the mid-orient including the decolonisation, a new conscience of environmental problems, new stakes around petrol, or soon, water, the growth of China... ect

Each one of those elements and many others creates a proper context that we can't compare with any other, the same way you can't compare the "hundred years war" and the revolutionary wars, so i guess we should keep that in mind in our analysis without give up in an hative fear that would constitute a soft bed for nationalists...
Those peoples feed from fears they create, i don't like to do comparison's but this one seem justified to me, think a bit about that good old hitler's (yeah him again) discourse... It consists in playing with menace, saying : "you vulnerable people, the poors, the smallests, if you don't protect, some will rob your work and your means of subsistance, the weimar republic fooled you, listen us, we can help you and protect you from menace" ect...

We can't compare any war, each one also has it's own context, with different stakes and causes. There's a large difference between revolutionnary wars and war against terror. The liberties defended and putten in scene are not the same that in 1776, the ennemies and their reasons are not the same <i>at all</i>... Ideologicaly we can't compare the revolutionnary fight and the fight against terrorism, that's an historical and intellectual nonsense.
So, let's take care with hative comparisons, and let's not enter in the game of fear, let's remain rational in our choices, and will see what will happend next, I think we can't guess, but we can take lessons from the past, in a constructive and rational way.

As Forrest Gump would say, "that's all i've to say about that" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

[Thomas the Terror]

And I like what I read! We mostly have realistic people who posted here <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />. I can't tell such a big story as you Seb, but if the world consisted of Pieter's Peters and Sebs, the world would be a bit better <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />.

Don't count me in though, I am being called a cannibal on this forum already! Imagine world politics