Realistic Sailing Model.

[bumpkin]

I love this game, but had a question about the sailing model in Realistic mode. Has anyone found a way to correct the sailing model. In the real world Square Riggers can typically sail no closer than 60 degrees to the wind. Because yards collide with the ratlines before they can braced around very far. Fore and Aft rigs that are used on Schooners, Xebecs and Cutters (called Sloops in this game) can sail as close as 45 degrees. Which means they should easily be able to escape upwind from any square rigger. On the other side of the coin square riggers are downwind rigs. Going downwind there was not much that could out run them.

Also the sail control system leaves a little bit to be desired. Tacking a square rigger is not as simple as just turning the wheel or tiller. You come up wind and just as you begin to pass through the wind you quickly brace all the sails on the Fore mast to the opposite tack. The reason being they will help push you off the wind onto your new course. Once you are falling off the wind then you brace the yards on the Main and Mizzen. You have to be carrying a good bit of speed to be able to tack a square rigger as you loose a lot in the process. Typically you may end up sailing backwards for a short time until you have settled onto your new course. There once was a freeware square rig sailing simulator which the guy did all of the math to calculte the forces exerted by the various sails. After playing with the simulator you found the key principal is balance. If the rig is not balanced you end up feeding in a lot of rudder which causes drag and lowers your speed.

I realize this is probably to much to ask of this game, but if you never ask you never know.

Thanks
Bumpkin.

 

[bumpkin]

<img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_eek.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":" border="0" alt="icon_eek.gif" /> Silly me, I saw the word realistic and thought it was a simulator.
<img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_wink.gif" /> This sort of stuff was in Age of Sail II, and Privateers Bounty. Both created by Akella. I was hoping POTC was a continuation of those titles.

What I would really love to see go away would be the Toilet Bowl spin you see in Storms. Having spent a couple years in the Navy and being through some pretty rough storms I can personally attest to that not beeing a real situation in the open sea.

<img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="cheers.gif" />:
bumpkin.

 

[jmv575]

You said it Bumpkin. The sailing really does leave something to be desired. How I wish this were a sailing simulation, and not an adventure game.

Are you using the build? If not you will be pleasantly surprised with the new sailing model. No more sailing into the wind, and ships have a best [point of sail depending upon their rig type. `Square-rigs` sail better with the wind at her quarter and the `gaff-rigs`' and `lateen-rigs`' best point of sail is across the beam. `Square-rigs` with stays'ls and jibs can point farther into the wind then your pure `square-sailor`.

However, even with the build, the sailing model isnt' nearly perfect. You'll still have those odd encounters where an enemy `square-rig` thinks it can sail right into the eye. Additionally, even with the build, its not possible to miss stays.

A while back I asked about the possibiltiy of increasing the time to change between topsails and `make-all` sail. We looked into it but found that that was contained in the dll's and our chief programmer at the time, Nathan Kell, could not get to them.

 

[bumpkin]

I am playing the Out of the Box version at the moment. I am still planning on finishing it before installing any of the builds. Although the more I read and hear about the builds the more tempted I become.

Has the damage model been improved? Meaning shooting away the steering gear, or dropping a mast would cause a vessel to slew around.

bumpkin.

 

[jmv575]

As far as the damage model, you can demast a vessel or knock away her bowsprit, but that's it. Firing dead into her aft will not affect her steering or anything to that effect. Infact, there was this odd little bug that a completely demasted vessel could still turn? I don't know if anyone fixed that though.

I remember the first time I went out with the new demasting mod installed. I was in a little cutter and I had come up on a xebec off the coast of Redmond. I had the weathergage, with the xebec and redmond to my lee. I had done this sorta thing before without much of problem so I bore down at her. The xebec fired her `bow-chasers` at me, but her gunnery wasn't very good so I pressed on, loading my guns with grape. The xebec turned and gave me her starboard broadside. Most of her shots were high and tore through my rigging. I wasn't worried. I pressed on. Her second broadside changed my opinion. She fired, and like the first, most of her fire went into my rigging. Then I heard this odd creaking sound and the shroads ripping off. Turning back out of the bow to see what the sound was, I saw my mast fall away into the sea. Needless to say, I was a little upset. At that point in the game I really really wished there was an ocean current, since the tide would have carried me into redmond... but no. I sat there, was raked again and again... now wishing for the option to strike. Finally the xebec moved in and boarded me. I was immeadiatley overwhelmed and died.

It was a great experience.

 

[CatalinaThePirate]

<!--QuoteBegin-jmv575+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jmv575)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It was a great experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> I know *exactly* what you mean!!! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="yes.gif" /> <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />

 

[SirChristopherMings]

Thanks Bumpkin, for giving us the benefit of your real sailing experience. You had mentioned it in an earlier posting and I wanted to know how the game stacked up to the real thing. I think that when you do get the Build you will find that some of the modders have made efforts to improve the game with regrds to the physics, but I don't think any game could ever really come close to the real thing.
(I think someone pointed out that in the original game on one of the ships, some of the sails are rigged completely backwards.)

I like how, in spite of your legitimate criticisms, you comment how you love the game. My father went to Annapolis and I have been trying to show him the game becuase in spite of its technical flaws, I think he would really enjoy it.

I personally think the storms in the game do not really represent how devastating a storm at sea can be, I thnk that every time we see one of those grey clouds on the world map we should feel real fear and do everything in our power to get away from them. I'm not sure how much fun the game would be to play, but it would be a lot more realistic.

There's a cool feature in Build 11, where if your masts get knocked away, or if you demast a ship and then capture it, when you sail to a new location you will see a `jury-rigged` mast on the ship. There is one thing that is mentioned in the build read me: it takes three hits from cannonballs to bring downa mast, but it takes 4 hits using chain shot to do the same thing. I thought chain shot was what you used to demast ships, but maybe I'm wrong and it just screws up the rigging, but you need balls to knock down a mast. Any insights on this would be appreciated.

Great story, JMV 575!

 

[alan_smithee]

I never noticed `jury-rigged` masts... I love how those can fall, and the creaking sound they make. I'll have to try hard to `de-mast` someone now so I can check later for a quick `patch-job`.

As regards storms, it seems to me the build reduces the damage your ship takes in them, even when you're just starting out in the game. I remember, long ago when I played vanilla PotC on the XBox, dreading storms for the toll they took on me. And I agree they were one of the most feared dangers to a sailor, and should be so.

And I love how you guys describe your battles, `point-for`-point in epic fashion. I just sort of shoot, `sail-to`, shoot, and board if I can, without paying that much attention...

 

[bumpkin]

Sorry I have been away for a couple days. That nasty old work stuff. Anyway from the reading I have done on the period the real danger from storms was loosing your masts or rigging and thus not being able to control the attitude at which your ship meets the waves. Which is crucial to determining whether the your ship will survive the storm. Being hit broadside by a wave would easily capsize and sink a square riggers.

With regard to rigging and storms. It was a common practice to strike (lower) the top masts and the top gallent masts to the deck for particularly nasty storms for the purpose of reducing your top hamper and lowering you center of gravity. Several references I have found state a well trained Navy crew could strike the masts in less than 10 minutes. I am assuming from the warship like crew sizes in POTC that getting a ship ready to handle a strom would not be a problem.

There a couple of really excellent books available on the topic of sail handling for squre riggers. The first being "The Young Sea Office's Sheet Anchor : Or a Key to the Leading of Rigging and to Practical Seamanship" by Darcy Lever. The second "Seamanship in the Age of Sail: An Account of the Shiphandling of the Sailing `Man-Of`-War `1600-1860`, Based on Contemporary Sources" by John Harland. Lever's book was originally published in early 1800's. It is fun to read becaues it was written using the language of the period. Lever's book the defacto guide used by many square rig sailors. It was also used as training manual by the US Navy for pepairing modern day navy personell for sailing the USS Consitiution for her lataes sailing adventures a couple of years ago.

Got a little long winded. I guess I should write more often and shorter responses.


May Fair Winds follow your journys.

 

[CatalinaThePirate]

<!--QuoteBegin-bumpkin+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bumpkin)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Got a little long winded. I guess I should write more often and shorter responses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Nay, don't say that! The info is great, no matter how many - or few - posts!

Thanks for the info on the books, they sound great!

You should stop in the Blind Parrot tavern for serious discussion on REAL pirates and REAL history and REAL sailing as opposed to what the games offer... I think you will be pleased... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />