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Ship encounters need tweaking

Merciless Mark

Merciless Mark

Build mod - Master Gunner
Storm Modder
Theres just too many ships in post build right now, the amount of large fleets one encounters is redicolous, and it is very very rare one encounters single ships.

I think tweaking is in order, not as many ships frequently, and not as many large fleets, have like most enouncters be a ship vs ship battle and downsize fleets considerably.

Aside from more realistic gameplay this would also be good for some of the high poly ships comming up these days, that tend to slow down the system in major fleet battles. Ive longed for a single ship to ship battle for ages.
 
Good point.

We'll put that in the group with "rebalance the economy so the expense of ships is historically relative to cost of ground forces" and "tweak damage model to a more historical level, so not everything sinks like a stone".

Obviously, without those other two changes, it would just come out strange. "BOOM... my Battleship sank another sloop."

Ron
 
<!--quoteo(post=144327:date=Apr 2 2006, 12:56 PM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Apr 2 2006, 12:56 PM) [snapback]144327[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Good point.

We'll put that in the group with "rebalance the economy so the expense of ships is historically relative to cost of ground forces" and "tweak damage model to a more historical level, so not everything sinks like a stone".

Obviously, without those other two changes, it would just come out strange. "BOOM... my Battleship sank another sloop."

Ron
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The economic model for ships is that every ship is gravely underpriced. The costs to build a battleship in that time was enourmous, if you only looked at the amount of wood required and especially time and different specialists ... Seeing class 2 fleets all around the map IS a bit too much, isn't it?
 
On the matter of ship encounters could someone from the magnificent modders perhaps consider removing the player ability of avoiding a battle/encounter with a pursuing or pirate ship? On the map at present you sometimes find ships that hunt you and trigger the engagement option, but it seems daft that you can opt not to engage. If being hunted and caught by pirates or warships surely you shouldn't have the option to easily avoid them, but rather have to flee or fight in 3rd person sailing mode, where your ability to sail or fight well determine your fate.

If the frequency of the occurence of large fleets is reduced (come on, not all pirates had fleets of ships or worked in teams, and pirate hunters tended I think to be individual navy ships not battle fleets) then it should make this more possible without becoming annoying or too difficult.

In a way, reduction of the size of fleets and a reduction of the number of rated military vessels encountered in open waters would make it more feasible to play in a more authentic fashion (as per the experiment carried out by Mad Jack). With so many rated ships about I find I have to use seriously powerful ships to get anywhere...but using big ships as a pirate isn't very realistic, and all too frequently I tend to sink potential prizes by mistake.
If someone can make encounters more realistic and crucially more fun...then dinky little pirate ships become more viable for playing in (as in no pirates in lineships, frigates, corvettes, Battleships, Warships and MOW)..and a lot fewer navy battleships about. I read that in the 1720s many supposed navy pirate hunters (and naval presence outside of war was much less than during the War of Spanish Succession) were actively noted as attempting to avoid confronting pirates. S'a far cry from the current state of the POTC game methinks.
 
Most certainly it is "too much" - but before this can be fixed, other elements of the economy and combat model need work as well.

Until we have a reasonable model for land combat - i.e. larger numbers of troops who would trade gunfire with each other - the ship prices cannot be seriously changed.

As it is, ships sink a lot too. Historically, ships tended to stay afloat, and if beaten, surrender. If we fix that, we will need to rebalance the land/boarding combat to reflect the value of the ship. That is, to take a ship should require the arming of possibly dozens of marines (or drunken pirates, depending on your perspective) - and dealing with the subsequent casualties. Otherwise, the profit margin on a little swordfighting skill is way too high for the game.

I mean, if you want history - Between 1793 and 1815, England was fighting both France and 1812-1814 the United States. During that time, only 8 rated ships were burned or blown up (none just sunk from water leaking in), none of those during a major battle - i.e. they were all ambushed while alone. 17 ships were wrecked - totaled, to coin a insurance term, and three were run aground. During that time, the British suffered 1438 KIA, 4266 wounded (numbers vary in some reports, as some of the wounded died of wounds or complications later). A few British ships were captured, but I could not find numbers on MIA's - the Americans released most of their prisoners after the war, so they were not recorded as permanent losses, but I don't know what the French were doing with prisoners at the time. The British Navy killed an estimated 9000, wounded 7000, and captured 22,000 prisoners. The British killed twice as many enemy, because they fired round ball through the hull, while the French preferred to open the engagement with chain to the rigging. (The French tactic worked good if you could win the engagement and get some nice prize ships, but if you just traded fire and left, sails were easier to replace than men.) That was a war between the most powerful naval forces on earth at the time, and over a 12 year period. Consider the implications.

If we could make the game reflect that, it would force players to think more before they trade fire. Even if you could afford a battleship, it might not be an economical solution. Of course, we would need the AI to take this into account as well.

But again, we still need to rework a dozen other things, before the game will balance.
Ron
 
frankly, i wasent really considering the historical aspect at all. i just find the amount of ships and fleets excessive period, and the ship pricing is unbalanced period

if its historically accurate or not dosent matter, these issues do affect gameplay.
 
I agree.

1) Too many fleets

2) Too many rated ships (thats includes frigates and the top corvettes)

3) Small ships are too expensive, while top ships are, comparativily, too cheap

4) The distance at the encounters starts is, commonly, too close

5) And yes, I would like make automatic certain navigation map encounters. In fact, was in the Build 12. Un fortunately, I haven't the most remote idea about from where to start.

Kblack.
 
<!--quoteo(post=144357:date=Apr 3 2006, 03:57 AM:name=kblack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kblack @ Apr 3 2006, 03:57 AM) [snapback]144357[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I agree.

1) Too many fleets

2) Too many rated ships (thats includes frigates and the top corvettes)

3) Small ships are too expensive, while top ships are, comparativily, too cheap

4) The distance at the encounters starts is, commonly, too close

5) And yes, I would like make automatic certain navigation map encounters. In fact, was in the Build 12. Un fortunately, I haven't the most remote idea about from where to start.

Kblack.
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I agree with all of these.

Cheers <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />
 
some more trading stuff <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":yes" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />
some more ships...
more islands
bigger map
etc etc:p
 
i think you have the wrong threat m8 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wp" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" />
 
<!--quoteo(post=144415:date=Apr 3 2006, 12:32 AM:name=Jack Davidson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Davidson @ Apr 3 2006, 12:32 AM) [snapback]144415[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
<!--quoteo(post=144357:date=Apr 3 2006, 03:57 AM:name=kblack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kblack @ Apr 3 2006, 03:57 AM) [snapback]144357[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I agree.

1) Too many fleets

2) Too many rated ships (thats includes frigates and the top corvettes)

3) Small ships are too expensive, while top ships are, comparativily, too cheap

4) The distance at the encounters starts is, commonly, too close

5) And yes, I would like make automatic certain navigation map encounters. In fact, was in the Build 12. Un fortunately, I haven't the most remote idea about from where to start.

Kblack.
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I agree with all of these.

Cheers <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />
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I also agree!
This is a must to enhance fun gameplay
 
<!--quoteo(post=144357:date=Apr 2 2006, 07:57 PM:name=kblack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kblack @ Apr 2 2006, 07:57 PM) [snapback]144357[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I agree.

1) Too many fleets

2) Too many rated ships (thats includes frigates and the top corvettes)

3) Small ships are too expensive, while top ships are, comparativily, too cheap

4) The distance at the encounters starts is, commonly, too close

5) And yes, I would like make automatic certain navigation map encounters. In fact, was in the Build 12. Un fortunately, I haven't the most remote idea about from where to start.

Kblack.
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1&2) There are a lot of variables concerning worldmap encounters in worldmap\worldmap_globals.c . There are a lot of comments, so you might be able to tweak them to your liking.

3) Can be changed in ships_init.c

4) The encounter distance is IIRC set here in worldmap\worldmap_globals.c

#define WDM_MAP_TO_SEA_ENCOUNTERS_SCALE 19.607843 //was 60 in build, 10.0 in stock. NK 05-04-30



5) To load to sea at every encounter find this function in worldmap\worldmap_events.c

void wdmEvent_ShipEncounter()
{
wdmDisableTornadoGen = true;
....
// boal -->
LaunchBoalMapScreen();
//wdmReloadToSea();
// boal <--

}

and change AlexusB's changes

// boal -->
// LaunchBoalMapScreen();
wdmReloadToSea();
// boal <--
 
True, the land figthing is stil la bit *odd*, given that you go in there with 5 people and there are 5 people defendin the fort? I know this *represents* the actuall number, but it would be really cool to actually see the entire crew vs the entire fort crew... I have no idea what that would do to the CPU though :p But if someone were to do that, however, they would need to completly redesign (or just make it bigger?) boarding model, since it's way too small to support such number of fighters.
 
<!--quoteo(post=144874:date=Apr 8 2006, 10:15 AM:name=Galliente)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Galliente @ Apr 8 2006, 10:15 AM) [snapback]144874[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
True, the land figthing is stil la bit *odd*, given that you go in there with 5 people and there are 5 people defendin the fort? I know this *represents* the actuall number, but it would be really cool to actually see the entire crew vs the entire fort crew... I have no idea what that would do to the CPU though :p But if someone were to do that, however, they would need to completly redesign (or just make it bigger?) boarding model, since it's way too small to support such number of fighters.
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and i wish ppl would look where their posting <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wp" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" />
 
That's the dilemma with mods to begin with. The game was balanced to some point from the factory, based on playtesting (usually to a market audience, generally kids). Then, when you change one thing (to make it more real, more intelligent, or whatever), everything else has to be shifted to make the model fit. More realistic ship prices need to be paired with more realistic personal combat numbers and equipment, which need to be paired with more realistic damage models (both on land and at sea), which need to be paired with more realistic numbers and sizes of ships. Unless you can get all of these changes at the same time, something will be a bit odd. If you make one change, and try to playtest it, it will seem out of balance.

That seems to be the reasoning behind this forum. We're trying to get all these totally dissimilar efforts together into a complete game, instead of just a bunch of "stuff" done to a game.

...But as for what more people on land would do to the processor, I wouldn't worry. It's an old enough game that most computers made in this century can handle it. (If your computer wasn't made in this century, well...) Not to mention, it seems to be the ship encounters that bog down the machines, and this plan calls for making them smaller.

Ron
 
<!--quoteo(post=144874:date=Apr 8 2006, 10:15 AM:name=Galliente)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Galliente @ Apr 8 2006, 10:15 AM) [snapback]144874[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
True, the land figthing is stil la bit *odd*, given that you go in there with 5 people and there are 5 people defendin the fort? I know this *represents* the actuall number, but it would be really cool to actually see the entire crew vs the entire fort crew... I have no idea what that would do to the CPU though :p But if someone were to do that, however, they would need to completly redesign (or just make it bigger?) boarding model, since it's way too small to support such number of fighters.
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I'm afraid that we have to devise something as the "land battles" in Sid Meiers Pirates.

Or just to learn to live with, at most, a dozen or so combatants per side.
 
A dozen per side would be a good land battle. Especially if, as in ship battles, a few more could "arrive" as the fight dragged on. A dozen guys slinging lead at you would make the point pretty well - the guy with the most guns usually comes out on top, and everybody else ends up picking lead out of their aft.

Now if we could just get them to stand their ground and fight with guns, instead of ignoring a perfectly good musket and charging in with a pocketknife...

Ron
 
Mark is right, I apologise but I seem to have had 2 threads open in tabs and posted on the wrong one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/modding.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":modding" border="0" alt="modding.gif" />

Anyway, to the topic.
I just came back from game where I encountered a couple fleets of 4+ class 1/2 ships, all within minutes of eachother. An invasion fleet? Trading convoy? Holliday vacations group?
 
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