Discussion Some thoughts on latest playthroughs

[Lrv]

I've been using discord a bit to check it out, but I may as well post here

I've been playing around lately trying to roleplay with Evil characters (Blackbeard, and Davy jones mostly) and I had a hard time geting my rep Low, my gameplay summed up:

Sailing to find ships of any nation, either sink them for no reason (well, XP and Fun, or just my cargo being at full capacity) or boarding, killing everyone on board and either capturing the ship for selling it later, or just plundering and sinking it

Sinking ships as far as I know is not giving me any kind of rep, since I'm always under the jolly rogers

"Cutting them down like pigs" dosn't look like its affecting my rep, I feel like it should be the main "evil path" choice, having the "let them go" and "leting them join you" for "good path", and maybe the capturing option for a neutral playthrough (if your goal is just to make profit and get the ransom, later you could always let them go to get good rep or

As a pirate, sinking a ship for no reason (no plunder) dosnt look like a normal thing, maybe if they shot first you could consider it defense, but a "good/neutral" pirate I think would just run away from an encounter if there is no profit/plunder intention, while an "evil" one may be sinking ships for the sake of it.

Maybe it could be diferent depending if you sink "war" type ships vs "trade" type, giving you bad rep for sinking without plundering, and killing all crew after/before plunder on "trade" type ships
But you could leave sinking without plundering a "war" type ship as Neutral (by naval combat) but still get Evil rep if you board and they surrender and you still choose to"cut them like pigs"

Another thing would be that when sinking a ship that is close, upon the sinking animation start and the cargo and enemy crew spawning in the water, the crew may spawn on top of your ship hence being automatically rescued and giving you good rep, this thing alone is kinda ruining my atempts at being an Evil pirate, since most of my naval battles end like that (close quarters just looks cooler)

Last thing would be when doing the generic missions for pirate governors, upon completion you get +1 good rep, but then, if i'm not mistaken upon gaining a rank with the pirates you get -5 , no idea who is perceiving the reputation if the pirates giving me +1 rep for completing a task with them, or later the whole caribbean -5 as youre geting deeper in to Piracy, the latest makes more sense to me.


I'm asuming that the reputation system is how are you seen to the whole caribbean, not to your faction/crew only (mostly playing as a Pirate). I guess tecnically if you play as an English captain and sink/kill every French on sight, maybe (hypothetically) you should be seen as a Hero by your nation, but as a Terror by the French, I dont think that can be a thing in this game, but just a thought

Edit: If someone could point me to the files that manage the reputation system, that would be nice

Edit2: Another Issue I'm seeing a lot is the amount of ships you find carrying Gold, low tiers specially, since most of my playthroughs start in nevis, I sail alot to Puerto rico and Saint Martin, and a lot of the time you can find groups of up to 4 fisherman boats tier 6/7/8 carrying gold and silver, looks kinda silly and makes things way too easy, maybe is there a way to only allow carrying gold in fleets with "trade" type ships at least tier 5/4, with at least one or two "war" type ships tier 3 or 4 as escort

I dont know if this has any influence but I always play on sea dog difficulty

Apologies if my post is hard to read / bad worded or poorly constructed, Im learning english just by gaming and internet stuff, so posting is also an exercise for me,

Fair winds!

 

[Homo eructus]

I guess tecnically if you play as an English captain and sink/kill every French on sight, maybe (hypothetically) you should be seen as a Hero by your nation, but as a Terror by the French, I dont think that can be a thing in this game, but just a thought

I think that's exactly how it works. Your relation with the different nations and your overall reputation are independent systems form each other.

 

[Grey Roger]

Sinking ships as far as I know is not giving me any kind of rep, since I'm always under the jolly rogers

That is correct. Sinking ships does not in itself affect reputation. If you have a naval commission or a letter of marque, sinking enemy ships earns you points towards your next promotion and that will earn you a reputation gain. Pirates can join the Brotherhood on Nevis, earn an equivalent to a promotion (the dialog with the boss pirate refers to what other pirates are calling you but the mechanism is the same as for a promotion), and that will also alter your reputation.

"Cutting them down like pigs" dosn't look like its affecting my rep, I feel like it should be the main "evil path" choice...

I've a vague memory that we might not have implemented that because some quest captains might not give you any other choice. However, they should be very rare, especially since any quest captain who isn't allowed to be captured or hired is probably prevented from surrendering in the first place. Still, I reckon it should be possible to check if there are other options, so you only get the reputation loss if you actively choose to kill them all.

In any case, one thing you can usually do is to say "I require you to surrender your weapons. You have my word that you will be treated properly." Then, in the cargo hold, tell the prisoner that you're going to kill him. Promising to treat him well and then killing him anyway will certainly drop your reputation!

As a pirate, sinking a ship for no reason (no plunder) dosnt look like a normal thing, maybe if they shot first you could consider it defense, but a "good/neutral" pirate I think would just run away from an encounter if there is no profit/plunder intention, while an "evil" one may be sinking ships for the sake of it.

Going to all the trouble of attacking the ship, using ammunition and getting some of your crew killed as well as the enemy's, and then not taking any plunder, isn't evil, it's stupid. Although, if you're trying to boost your standing with other pirates (i.e. earn points towards the pirate equivalent of a promotion), then maybe it's not entirely pointless. Your crew, of course, might not see it that way...

Last thing would be when doing the generic missions for pirate governors, upon completion you get +1 good rep, but then, if i'm not mistaken upon gaining a rank with the pirates you get -5 , no idea who is perceiving the reputation if the pirates giving me +1 rep for completing a task with them, or later the whole caribbean -5 as youre geting deeper in to Piracy, the latest makes more sense to me.

The +1 for completing a mission is part of the mechanism of ship-hunting quests. Gaining a rank used to always get you a +5, as it does for naval and privateer characters; I changed that to check your existing reputation and give you a -5 if you're evil, the point being that +5 is not a reward if you're trying to play evil!

I'm asuming that the reputation system is how are you seen to the whole caribbean, not to your faction/crew only (mostly playing as a Pirate). I guess tecnically if you play as an English captain and sink/kill every French on sight, maybe (hypothetically) you should be seen as a Hero by your nation, but as a Terror by the French, I dont think that can be a thing in this game, but just a thought

Reputation and relation aren't connected. An English captain who sinks every French ship in sight will see his relation to England rise and his relation to France fall, but his reputation depends on how he conducts that war, or his game in general.

Edit: If someone could point me to the files that manage the reputation system, that would be nice

The function to change reputation is 'ChangeCharacterReputation'. It's called in all sorts of places.

Edit2: Another Issue I'm seeing a lot is the amount of ships you find carrying Gold, low tiers specially, since most of my playthroughs start in nevis, I sail alot to Puerto rico and Saint Martin, and a lot of the time you can find groups of up to 4 fisherman boats tier 6/7/8 carrying gold and silver, looks kinda silly and makes things way too easy, maybe is there a way to only allow carrying gold in fleets with "trade" type ships at least tier 5/4, with at least one or two "war" type ships tier 3 or 4 as escort

Unescorted ships are less likely to carry gold or silver, and definitely won't carry it in large quantities. Conversely, a single ship with heavy escort is more likely to have a hold full of gold or silver, and less likely to have a hold full of bottom value cargo such as bricks.

Back to "I'll cut you all down like pigs". Download this and put it into "PROGRAM\DIALOGS". This version has a check at case "kill_them_all", which is the part that deals with what happens when you've chosen to cut them all down:

if (bAllowHireJoin || bAllowRelease || bAllowCapture) ChangeCharacterReputation(PChar, -5);

If you have no choice then you won't lose reputation. If you have any of the options to hire him, release him or take him prisoner, and you actively choose to kill him, then you get -5 reputation. Note: this file will only work if you have a fully update version of PoTC:NH because it also includes code for naval and privateer captains who execute prisoners - they have a special penalty...

 

[Lrv]

In any case, one thing you can usually do is to say "I require you to surrender your weapons. You have my word that you will be treated properly." Then, in the cargo hold, tell the prisoner that you're going to kill him. Promising to treat him well and then killing him anyway will certainly drop your reputation!

Ahhh this is what I used to do in the past to get bad rep and completely forgot about it, thank you!

Going to all the trouble of attacking the ship, using ammunition and getting some of your crew killed as well as the enemy's, and then not taking any plunder, isn't evil, it's stupid.

Totally agree

The +1 for completing a mission is part of the mechanism of ship-hunting quests. Gaining a rank used to always get you a +5, as it does for naval and privateer characters; I changed that to check your existing reputation and give you a -5 if you're evil, the point being that +5 is not a reward if you're trying to play evil!

Oh I see, thats why now im geting good rep there in another playthrough

The function to change reputation is 'ChangeCharacterReputation'. It's called in all sorts of places.

Nice, I'm going to have some fun with that...

Unescorted ships are less likely to carry gold or silver, and definitely won't carry it in large quantities. Conversely, a single ship with heavy escort is more likely to have a hold full of gold or silver, and less likely to have a hold full of bottom value cargo such as bricks.

Is there any file where I can edit those values to make it a smaller % of finding ships carrying gold, and or maybe if there is a conexion between your LvL and Luck skill that is affecting these encounters to tune it down

Back to "I'll cut you all down like pigs". Download this and put it into "PROGRAM\DIALOGS". This version has a check at case "kill_them_all", which is the part that deals with what happens when you've chosen to cut them all down:

if (bAllowHireJoin || bAllowRelease || bAllowCapture) ChangeCharacterReputation(PChar, -5);

If you have no choice then you won't lose reputation. If you have any of the options to hire him, release him or take him prisoner, and you actively choose to kill him, then you get -5 reputation. Note: this file will only work if you have a fully update version of PoTC:NH because it also includes code for naval and privateer captains who execute prisoners - they have a special penalty...

I see, Thanks! I do have the latest version

I'll apply that file, and i'm going to fiddle with 'ChangeCharacterReputation' values in anything I can find to see if I can get something like my OG post, like losing rep when sinking trade ships by cannon fire (just -1 tho), and well, lets see what I can find! Thank you!

 

[Grey Roger]

Is there any file where I can edit those values to make it a smaller % of finding ships carrying gold, and or maybe if there is a conexion between your LvL and Luck skill that is affecting these encounters to tune it down

The file you want is "PROGRAM\SEA_AI\AIFantom.c". The part you want is function 'Fantom_SetGoods', specifically this part:

       if(bBlockTreasure)
       {
           if(fillCargo == GOOD_GOLD || fillCargo == GOOD_SILVER)
           {
               trace("CARGO: Fantom_SetGoods: reducing " + fillQuantity + " of '" + Goods[fillCargo].name + "'");
               fillQuantity = makeint(frand(fillQuantity));
           }
       }

Variable 'bBlockTreasure' will have been previously set if this group is unescorted merchants, either in a worldmap encounter or a coastal encounter. The general mechanism to fill a merchant starts by giving it random amounts of a random number of random cargo types; if the ship is an unescorted merchant, and the random type is gold or silver, the above code reduces the amount.

Further down:

       if(bBlockTreasure)
       {
           while(fillCargo == GOOD_GOLD || fillCargo == GOOD_SILVER)
           {
               trace("CARGO: Fantom_SetGoods: trying not to put '" + Goods[fillCargo].name + "' into unescorted merchant");
               fillCargo = iStart + rand(GOODS_QUANTITY - iStart - 1);
           }
       }

After some random cargo has been put in the ship's hold, the rest of the hold is then stuffed with one type of cargo. This code completely prevents an unescorted merchant from being stuffed with gold or silver.

If you want to prevent unescorted merchants from carrying any gold or silver at all, copy the code from the second part into the first part.

Sinking merchants by cannon fire shouldn't cost you reputation, for two reasons. One is that you may find a ship near port which is merchant and hostile to you but not to the port; for example, if you sailed into a Portuguese port under a British flag, Britain is at war with France, Portugal is allied to Britain and neutral to France, and there's a French ship nearby. The fort won't touch it and you're not getting into port while it's there. And reason number two is that attacking enemy merchants without plundering them is a perfectly valid naval strategy, the idea being to disrupt enemy trade.

 

[Lrv]

The file you want is "PROGRAM\SEA_AI\AIFantom.c". The part you want is function 'Fantom_SetGoods', specifically this part...

Awesome, a thousand thanks!

If you want to prevent unescorted merchants from carrying any gold or silver at all, copy the code from the second part into the first part.

Perfect! thanks a lot for the thorough response

Sinking merchants by cannon fire shouldn't cost you reputation, for two reasons. One is that you may find a ship near port which is merchant and hostile to you but not to the port; for example, if you sailed into a Portuguese port under a British flag, Britain is at war with France, Portugal is allied to Britain and neutral to France, and there's a French ship nearby. The fort won't touch it and you're not getting into port while it's there.

I'm failing to understand that situation, I dont know if its my english or I'm just dumb

And reason number two is that attacking enemy merchants without plundering them is a perfectly valid naval strategy, the idea being to disrupt enemy trade.

Yeah! absolutely, It makes all the sense if you play of any proper Nation but as a Pirate makes no sense disrupting enemy trade, all this "reputation changes" I'm trying to make are explicitly for a Evil Pirate playthrough, maybe there is a way to add these changes(the sinking trade ships by cannon fire) to work only if youre a Pirate (with the equivalent of having the letter of marque/belonging to the Pirate "nation", not just flying the ) This I think solves these two issues you mention, so far I have no problems with the rep sistem when playing the proper Nations

What I'm trying to do is make the "evil" pirate route a bit more obvious, and harder / less forgiving, I also want to tune down a little bit the reputation gains, for example for sinking (trade) ships it could be depending the rate of the ship (to acount for the number of inocents killed) starting maybe with a -0.5 to a maximum of maybe -2.0 on the higher rate trade ship in the game, to make things a little bit more grindy

 

[Grey Roger]

I'm failing to understand that situation, I dont know if its my english or I'm just dumb

You are trying to enter a Portuguese port (Sao Jorge being the only one), under a British flag, which is fine if Portugal is allied to Britain, which it usually is by default. Whether by random relations change or due to your choice of starting year, Portugal happens to be neutral to France. Today a French merchant ship is also near the port. France is neutral to Portugal so the fort won't attack the French ship. But France is at war with Britain, and you're not allowed to dock while there's a hostile ship nearby. If you want to moor, you'll have to sink that French ship first.

Yeah! absolutely, It makes all the sense if you play of any Nation, but all this "reputation changes" I'm trying to make are explicitly for a Evil Pirate playthrough, maybe there is a way to add these changes(the sinking trade ships by cannon fire) to work only if youre a Pirate (with the equivalent of having the letter of marque/belonging to the Pirate "nation", not just flying the ) This I think solves these two issues you mention, so far I have no problems with the rep sistem when playing the proper Nations

As previously said, a pirate who goes to all the effort of attacking a merchant without then plundering it isn't evil, he's stupid. You're killing the same number of merchant sailors, the only difference is that you're not making any profit out of it. Neither are the crew, and in reality they'd mutiny if the captain kept putting them in harm's way without putting them in gold's way at the same time.

What I'm trying to do is make the "evil" pirate route a bit more obvious, and harder / less forgiving, I also want to tune down a little bit the reputation gains, for example for sinking (trade) ships it could be depending the rate of the ship (to acount for the number of inocents killed) starting maybe with a -0.5 to a maximum of maybe -2.0 on the higher rate trade ship in the game, to make things a little bit more grindy

There is normally no reputation change for sinking a ship. You just get some points added to your relations with Pirates and some points taken off your relation with the nation that owned the ship. When you have earned enough relation points with Pirates, you'll get a promotion. How many relation points you earn does indeed depend on the ship's tier. And sinking a merchant doesn't earn many points; if you want quick promotion, go after warships instead.

If you really want to be evil, attack a ship while flying a friendly flag. This is really dishonourable and will send your reputation plummeting faster than a cannonball thrown overboard.

There's another way to be an evil pirate, at least for a while. Accept an escort mission. Once on the high sea, raise your pirate flag and attack the ship you're supposed to be escorting. However, once your reputation is down to "Swindler", you won't be able to get any more escort missions.

 

[Lrv]

You are trying to enter a Portuguese port (Sao Jorge being the only one), under a British flag, which is fine if Portugal is allied to Britain, which it usually is by default. Whether by random relations change or due to your choice of starting year, Portugal happens to be neutral to France. Today a French merchant ship is also near the port. France is neutral to Portugal so the fort won't attack the French ship. But France is at war with Britain, and you're not allowed to dock while there's a hostile ship nearby. If you want to moor, you'll have to sink that French ship first.

I see, I dont remember being in that situation recently

As previously said, a pirate who goes to all the effort of attacking a merchant without then plundering it isn't evil, he's stupid. You're killing the same number of merchant sailors, the only difference is that you're not making any profit out of it.

It does make a diference, having a profit gives you at least a reason other than pure evil (or stupidity as you call it) but youre taking it a bit too realistic. I'm thinking on roleplaying Davy Jones, so tecnically I shouldnt give a *** about sinking ships x'D other than just to spread terror

If you really want to be evil, attack a ship while flying a friendly flag. This is really dishonourable and will send your reputation plummeting faster than a cannonball thrown overboard.

I usually do this when I play a normal pirate, (well, to get closer to board) but it kills all the inmersion /roleplay If I'm trying to roleplay Davy jones or some character that always flyes the

 

[Grey Roger]

I see, I dont remember being in that situation recently

I have, though the nations were different - I'm playing the "Assassin" storyline, therefore flying a Spanish flag, and was trying to get into St. Pierre. France is friendly to both Spain and Portugal; Spain is friendly to France but hostile to Portugal. There were a couple of Portuguese ships nearby.

It does make a diference, having a profit gives you at least a reason other than pure evil (or stupidity as you call it) but youre taking it a bit too realistic. I'm thinking on roleplaying Davy Jones, so tecnically I shouldnt give a *** about sinking ships x'D other than just to spread terror

Or to get supplies. You can't set foot on land, so how do you plan to get replacement ammunition, planks and sailcloth? (I'm not sure if you need food or rum when playing as cursed Davy Jones. If you do, that's another reason for wanting to loot ships.)

I usually do this when I play a normal pirate, (well, to get closer to board) but it kills all the inmersion /roleplay If I'm trying to roleplay Davy jones or some character that always flyes the

Flying a false flag to get close is perfectly acceptable, so long as you hoist your true flag (or at least, a flag hostile to the target) before opening fire. Firing while still under a friendly flag is what will sink your reputation.

Incidentally, a couple of FreePlay characters have their reputation set right at the start to "Horror of the High Seas", or "Femme Fatale", which is the female equivalent because one of them is Milady de Winter. The other is not Davy Jones, but it would be easy enough to have him start at "Horror of the High Seas" as well. Look at "PROGRAM\Storyline\FreePlay\StartStoryline.c", specifically the bit for "PLAYER_TYPE_CURSED":

           if(CheckCharacterItem(PChar, "Davy_Chest"))
           {
               SetModelfromArray(ch, GetModelIndex("davy1"));
               ch.old.name = "Koleniko";
               ch.old.lastname = "";
               ch.name = TranslateString("","Koleniko");
               ch.lastname = "";
           }
           else
           {
               if (CheckCharacterItem(PChar, "Devil_Contract"))
               {
                   SetModelfromArray(ch, GetModelIndex("priest_inq"));
                   ch.name = TranslateString("","Mephistopheles");
                   ch.lastname = "";
                   PChar.reputation = REPUTATION_HORROR;
               }

That line 'PChar.reputation = REPUTATION_HORROR;' is what sets Ricardo Orellana to "Horror of the High Seas". Copy it into the section above, i.e. the bit about "Davy_Chest", and Davy Jones will also start as "Horror of the High Seas". If you don't want to start as full evil, you can set the starting reputation to something else - look at "PROGRAM\Characters\characters.h" for a list of all the reputation settings.

 

[Lrv]

Or to get supplies. You can't set foot on land, so how do you plan to get replacement ammunition, planks and sailcloth? (I'm not sure if you need food or rum when playing as cursed Davy Jones. If you do, that's another reason for wanting to loot ships.)

well I'm not playing as cursed, but yeah we could go far with this I dont think he needs to eat, neither his ship needs planks or something

Flying a false flag to get close is perfectly acceptable, so long as you hoist your true flag (or at least, a flag hostile to the target) before opening fire. Firing while still under a friendly flag is what will sink your reputation.

It just isnt something Davy jones would do (imo), I mean the ship itself kinda nullifies trying to use another flag that isnt the jolly roger (altough, I'm not even using the flying dutchman , I use the same 3 ships all the time, Heavy Sloop of War, USS Essex 1799 and Battle Frigate, altough my favorite is the Essex, and I find the Battle Frigate to get dismasted fairly easy, maybe is because his size/height makes it easier for enemy cannonades to land on the masts, even if the AI isnt aiming there) I'm using a big deal of imagination tho, If I were able maybe I would repaint some textures to make the Dutch/Portugese version (my fav) of the essex wood parts of the hull to be grayish, to mach with the black sails and use it as a "cursed ship"

Incidentally, a couple of FreePlay characters have their reputation set right at the start to "Horror of the High Seas", or "Femme Fatale", which is the female equivalent because one of them is Milady de Winter. The other is not Davy Jones, but it would be easy enough to have him start at "Horror of the High Seas" as well. Look at "PROGRAM\Storyline\FreePlay\StartStoryline.c", specifically the bit for "PLAYER_TYPE_CURSED":

           if(CheckCharacterItem(PChar, "Davy_Chest"))
           {
               SetModelfromArray(ch, GetModelIndex("davy1"));
               ch.old.name = "Koleniko";
               ch.old.lastname = "";
               ch.name = TranslateString("","Koleniko");
               ch.lastname = "";
           }
           else
           {
               if (CheckCharacterItem(PChar, "Devil_Contract"))
               {
                   SetModelfromArray(ch, GetModelIndex("priest_inq"));
                   ch.name = TranslateString("","Mephistopheles");
                   ch.lastname = "";
                   PChar.reputation = REPUTATION_HORROR;
               }

That line 'PChar.reputation = REPUTATION_HORROR;' is what sets Ricardo Orellana to "Horror of the High Seas". Copy it into the section above, i.e. the bit about "Davy_Chest", and Davy Jones will also start as "Horror of the High Seas". If you don't want to start as full evil, you can set the starting reputation to something else - look at "PROGRAM\Characters\characters.h" for a list of all the reputation settings.

Ah nice, I used to set the rep with the cheatmode activated + #7 on the numbpad, but in this last playthroughs my intent is to start as neutral and work my way up (or down) ence the emphasis on having a clear path to be Evil, since Hero is already fairly easy

But my problem was that starting as neutral, the "rescuing drowning sailors" issue that I mentioned on the mainpost was making me get good rep faster than my actions to get it lower, but the "cut them like pigs" fix you gave me, and the info about capturing and killing later that i forgot about, makes up for it, I'm still going to fiddle around to see what else is there in the files

 

[Grey Roger]

If you can't avoid turning good, use it to your advantage - do the "Help the Church" quest, and then "Strange Things Going On in the Caribbean". You might like the "Napoleonic" period version of the Mefisto...

Otherwise there's plenty of naughtiness on land. Get a thief's knife or sandbag, then rob people. Or, if you talk to someone, sometimes they try to rob you - learn the difference between "enlightened" and "lightened". If you catch someone with his hand in your pocket, he'll sometimes offer to give you a gem, in which case, take it. Do the "Hard Labours of an Assassin" quest and make sure to talk to all your victims - each dialog drops your reputation by 10.

 

[Lrv]

If you can't avoid turning good, use it to your advantage - do the "Help the Church" quest, and then "Strange Things Going On in the Caribbean". You might like the "Napoleonic" period version of the Mefisto...

Otherwise there's plenty of naughtiness on land. Get a thief's knife or sandbag, then rob people. Or, if you talk to someone, sometimes they try to rob you - learn the difference between "enlightened" and "lightened". If you catch someone with his hand in your pocket, he'll sometimes offer to give you a gem, in which case, take it. Do the "Hard Labours of an Assassin" quest and make sure to talk to all your victims - each dialog drops your reputation by 10.

The thing is that I'm barely on land, just the minimum to sell /buy goods for the ship, look for items in the shops, and get to the sea again, I play almost only for the naval side of the game, thats why I want to amplify the reputation options available on sea

 

[Lrv]

I remember the first pirate/sail game I've played, It was text based (maybe a few pixelated illustrations in black and white, maybe sepia?) about sailing around dealing with things on the ship, I dont remember the game, I was 6 or 7 years old I think, played it together with my mom (or more like she played it with me), so a long time ago...

Its the kind of game I'm chasing I think, no landplay, just sailing and the whole gameplay being inside the ship, with the crew, the adventure being more the journey than the destination