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Thankyou! and Ship Berthing

I remember a year or so ago when I was first starting to play I had a Lugger that went 27knots. I don't remember if it was build 13 or build 14. What difficulty level are you playing on? Try adventurer or swashbuckler. Have you gone through advanced options line by line? If you are getting many ships going too fast it might be a setting somewhere.
 
Ive gone through everything in options, buildsettings and internalsettings, shipyardc, ships etc. Ive changed the upgrades to be far less drastic (and cost less :)) yet all that did was hurt the slow ships and the problem remained. To be honest most ships feel very good and not 'too fast' at all, just a few types that just puzzle me. Luggers, sloops, cutter etc seem to have far too much potential for speed, or benefit too much from upgrades, which is strange because ive modded the upgrades, ive modded the ships files - and I cant really explain why a ship that is going 10 kn off a 24kn wind manages better than the wind with upgrades that shouldnt give more than a 50% boost to speed.

It does look like the game uses the 'b if arcade' stats but these actually seem like the right ones - they have more inertia, the rudder sticks (unlike the 'realistic' stats) and the ships actually go slower and stop slower. I think these are the right stats and yet with some ships like sloops the 'realistic' stats seem to prevent them going at excessive speeds.

The worst of it is that while most ships comply with the stats given to them, some, even at stock, just refuse to listen and happily do 20 kn (at stock!) when they are supposed to be limited to 10kn (sloop2, im looking at you!). Its bizarre. All in all im just plain puzzled by all this, but i think it must have something to do with some rigging or ship properties defined somewhere as part of the ship overhauls.

At this stage it would be nice to have someone who knows the insides of the ship trials overhaul state which set of stats is the correct 'realistic' one

Im not sure how difficulty would affect this but im already on either adventurer or swashbuckler (cant remember which)
 
irR4tiOn4L said:
At this stage it would be nice to have someone who knows the insides of the ship trials overhaul state which set of stats is the correct 'realistic' one
Click to expand...
If only Snow White Sorrow hadn't left... she'd be able to explain the stats. :modding
Other than that, I wonder if Pieter knows anything about it...? :wp
 
I did read all the above (up to yesterday's replies), but don't have the time for an in-depth reply.
Here's a couple of short notes though:
. I agree the upgrade descriptions aren't as clear as they could be and I'm not 100% sure what all of them do either
. It's quite possible that some stats are kept when laying up and some are not
. The Ship Upgrades mod was released as an Alpha and then the modder moved onto other things, so it's very well possible there some bugs relating to it
. The high speeds into the wind of ships that can naturally sail well into the wind sounds like one of those bugs
In fact, I remember from when we were experimenting with the Flying Dutchman and Steamships,
we ran into several weird effects with ships that can sail "too" close to the wind
. Screwface rewrote the ship AI at sea to make them give chase or abandon chase and generally have them behave interestingly
However, he did this by setting their tasks and then the AI takes over from there
I'm not sure if we can actually prevent the AI from sailing to close to the wind/into the wind
After all, we haven't yet found a way to set a ship's speed at sea either, so a ship's course is probably just as difficuly/impossible(?)
. As for the spyglasses, you mention you'd like them to give you a bit more information
What information are you thinking of? We can make it show whatever we want, but for Realistic Game Mode,
we disabled everything that a real spyglass wouldn't be able to show you either, eg. it just enlarges things and that's it
. I think some of the game balancing is a bit messed up, especially when it comes to loot
Of course the rarity code not doing what it's supposed to doesn't help here at all and unique and expensive weapons go showing up at random (GRRR!)
 
irR4tiOn4L said:
Hmm, this is strange. My game seems to use the arcade stats in Ships_init.c in actual sailing. I am referring to these settings;

if (!bArcadeMode){
refShip.SpeedRate = 10.0;
refShip.TurnRate = 95;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationX = 4; refShip.InertiaBrakingX = 0.4;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationY = 3; refShip.InertiaBrakingY = 0.5;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationZ = 2.5; refShip.InertiaBrakingZ = 2.0;
}else{
refShip.SpeedRate = 15.3;
refShip.TurnRate = 55;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationX = 0.2; refShip.InertiaBrakingX = 2.0;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationY = 10; refShip.InertiaBrakingY = 6;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationZ = 4.0; refShip.InertiaBrakingZ = 3.0;
Click to expand...

Ive been able to get many ships to sail 18kn+ and faster than the wind, yet i sail backwards if facing into the wind. Most recently I got a sloop2 from which i have taken these settings to go faster than the wind and 19 kn at STOCK, and 28 knots upgraded!

Is this normal or is there something wrong with my game? Most ships, like Caravels, Galleons, Frigates etc are fine but when it comes to sloops, xebecs, cutters and luggers, if they arent broken stock, they are once you upgrade
Click to expand...


I've done some reading and want to say that the settings under "!bArcadeMode" are the Willemstad Builders Trials settings and the ones under "else" are the stock settings. And the xebec is supposed to go 20 knots. Snow White Sorrow designed them to be destroyer LCS. Upgrading them seems to cause problems, so should be avoided.

The thread linked in post #11 is long but very informative.

@ Pieter: This is the realistic mode, so it's easy to see why the spyglass should show nothing. I just started playing it and am learning to use the compass to get information that used to be in the spyglass. Still there are things that I miss. The ship models don't show damage, which is something that one could see in reality. Reading reports of ship battles it seems they could tell about how many crew were on opposing ships. So, ship damage and approximate crew size are what I miss the most.

It often takes me 3-6 hours gametime to get in and out of ports.
 
I did read that thread and to be honest, i interpreted Snow White Sorrow's xebec comments as an experiment and fun. Theres no way she could have intended for xebecs to be that fast, given that when they are working (ie not upgraded) most are nowhere near that fast and with her focus on realism, why would she make a xebec as fast as the quickest extreme cutters of all time?

With regard to the spyglass, i think it shouldn't show hull because thatd be too much of a giveaway, however it should show crew as a percentage to keep the suspense up but give an indication (you wouldnt know the exact number, but youd see if the crew is relatively depleted) and number of cannon, since id be able to tell how many cannons had been knocked out and are remaining. Crew morale might also be shown if its very low or high (cowering or cheering) and one more thing that could be shown is percentage wise how full the cargo bay is (sits higher or lower in the water - in reality id see the waterline and know).
 
You made some good points about the spyglass there.
I agree that it might be interesting to have it show what a real captain would be able to deduce just by looking closely at the enemy ship, such as the waterline and the number of cannons.
Of course, no-one can always be 100% precise with this sort of thing, so perhaps we could make things a little less accurate, if we were to do this?
For example, the captain's guess of the number of cannons could be out by anything from 0-10 guns, perhaps. :keith
Or, he could completely misjudge the crew's morale/numbers if most of them are hidden below deck.
That's just a couple of thoughts for now; nothing I could see happening in the short term, though.
 
I started the Jack sparrow quest last night, and noticed ship stats that are different from what I'm used to seeing. Here are screenies of the ships I have active right now. I shall endeavor to get Jack a larger ship soonest.

Got it. Now to compare the NH wicked Wench to the JS Wicked Wench. It appears to me that the Jack Sparrow quest uses different physics than the other quests. I'm still learning this realistic sailing thing, but so far I prefer the other quests.
 
Arcade Game Mode DOES have inaccuracies in the spyglasses.

Some ships that don't have .unique set could have different stats at different times.
It's not storyline-dependent though.
 
:?

There is something going on with the Jack Sparrow ships. Every one I see in the shipyard has low speed numbers and very high turn numbers. But they won't turn. Do you know those planks, trees, debris that sometimes shows up directly in front of your ship? Both the light brig and the Wicked Wench could not miss them. Boom! The light brig capsized in a storm! It would not turn at all. :j1 I was afraid the Wicked Wench would too,but that storm ended. When I get the chance I gotta get a xebec. :j2
 
I can't imagine why that would be. Did you check the stats shown in the shipyard with the ships_init ones?
Perhaps all they need is some slight adjustment, but that depends on whether something else is interfering here. :facepalm

@Pieter, I never knew about the Arcade spyglass inaccuracies (never really played Arcade mode); that's great that they exist! :onya
 
Aha! The plot thickens. While the screenies I took above were all in realistic mode it appears that only the JS quest is using the "!BArcadeMode" settings. The others are using the "else" settings. :? Now, all of the other quests started out in arcade mode and were later switched to realistic mode. Only the JS quest is realistic all the way. But, things like not being able to sail into the wind is common to all of them.


Yes, the numbers for distance, crew, speed, cannons, etc. are always changing in arcade mode, making everything a guess.
 
Sorry to divert from the issue you guys are currently discussing, but does anyone know how to use cheats to add upgrades while at sea?

Failing that, is there a way to cheat and set the wind direction and speed (or make it constant for testing purposes)?

I would like to do a bit of debugging on when and on what kinds of ships upgrades do and do not work. I know how to disable upgrades altogether or remove their effects and change their prices and effects (anyone wants to know how, just post) and am considering adding an 'if' statement to check for certain ships, ship classes or ship types (eg only allow upgrades on vessels with trade=true and war=false), but need to have an easy way to debug this stuff
 
I know of no way to add upgrades at sea, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

You can set the weather to never change while sailing in "advanced options".

Methinks one could pick a save where the weather and wind is right, then choose one's ship and upgrade it and sail out of port to check it out. That same save could be used as often as needed. I did that to take pictures of 238 ships.
 
Have a look at PROGRAM\KB_Routines.c ; that's where most of the relevant code is for the ship upgrades.
You can try to execute ApplyTun through console, but I can't promise the changes take effect without reloading.
 
Thanks i will try both those things.

You cant really test this by upgrading in port and sailing out because upgrades take time to apply and when you sail out of port the wind has very likely changed.

Reloading after applying at sea is fine, maybe both in conjunction will be best.
 
You can preset the wind you'll get at sea through the console with the SetNextWind function (writing from memory).
 
In order to get arcade spyglasses in realistic mode do the following:

find \PROGRAM\BATTLE_INTERFACE\ispyglass.c file.
Open it with a text editor. Find this piece of code:
Code: 
if(!bArcadeMode)  //Screwface : No infos in realistic mod except the ship name under 350 yards
{
if(Whr_IsDay()) // Day
{
if(Ship_GetDistance2D(GetMainCharacter(),GetCharacter(chrIdx)) <= 300)
{
SendMessage(&objISpyGlass,"lsslllflll",MSG_ISG_UPDATE, Characters[chrIdx].Ship.Name,"", -1,-1,-1, -1.0,-1,-1,-1);
SendMessage(&objISpyGlass,"ll",MSG_ISG_VISIBLE,true);
}
}
else // Night
{
if(Ship_GetDistance2D(GetMainCharacter(),GetCharacter(chrIdx)) <= 150)
{
SendMessage(&objISpyGlass,"lsslllflll",MSG_ISG_UPDATE, Characters[chrIdx].Ship.Name,"", -1,-1,-1, -1.0,-1,-1,-1);
SendMessage(&objISpyGlass,"ll",MSG_ISG_VISIBLE,true);
}
}
return;
}


and change it to:
Code: 
/*if(!bArcadeMode)  //Screwface : No infos in realistic mod except the ship name under 350 yards
{
if(Whr_IsDay()) // Day
{
if(Ship_GetDistance2D(GetMainCharacter(),GetCharacter(chrIdx)) <= 300)
{
SendMessage(&objISpyGlass,"lsslllflll",MSG_ISG_UPDATE, Characters[chrIdx].Ship.Name,"", -1,-1,-1, -1.0,-1,-1,-1);
SendMessage(&objISpyGlass,"ll",MSG_ISG_VISIBLE,true);
}
}
else // Night
{
if(Ship_GetDistance2D(GetMainCharacter(),GetCharacter(chrIdx)) <= 150)
{
SendMessage(&objISpyGlass,"lsslllflll",MSG_ISG_UPDATE, Characters[chrIdx].Ship.Name,"", -1,-1,-1, -1.0,-1,-1,-1);
SendMessage(&objISpyGlass,"ll",MSG_ISG_VISIBLE,true);
}
}
return;
}*/

About the upgrades - what I found out, is that the only faulty upgrade is "stays", and only on ships with closest point <=~0.23(square sailed schooners with 0.24 are good, but luggers with 0.225 are not.) The funny thing is, that Ketches with cp of 0.1 sail just fine, frigates with stays definitely have cp>0.25(meaning stays do not decrease cp by more than 0.05), while luggers with stays get bugged(should have a cp>0.175>Ketches cp ?). This suggests, that there is something more than too low cp that causes the bug.

Looking through the code I found the following:
Code: 
case "stays":
applytunturning(char,"stays",SSTURNINGRANGEMAX,SSTURNINGRANGEMIN);
applytuntack(char,"stays",SSTACKRANGEMAX,SSTACKRANGEMIN);		
break;


This snippet is from applyTun function in KB_routines.c .
applytunturning does exactly what it's name suggests - improves ships turnrate attribute, so the culprit must be inside applytuntack function.

Code: 
void applytuntack(ref _char, string _improvement, float rangemax, float rangemin) {
float j;
float pertoadd;
j = rangemax - rangemin;
pertoadd = j*frnd()+rangemin;
if (rand(11) <= GetCharacterSkill(_char, "sneak")) { pertoadd=pertoadd+0.05; } // KK
if (rand(11) <= GetCharacterSkill(_char, "sailing")) { pertoadd=pertoadd+(0.05*j); } // KK
if (pertoadd > rangemax) { pertoadd = rangemax;}
_char.ship.tune.tack = sti(_char.ship.tune.tack)+1; 
_char.ship.tune.(_improvement).on = 1;
_char.ship.tune.(_improvement).tuntack = pertoadd;
_char.ship.tune.tackmod = stf(_char.ship.tune.tackmod) + pertoadd; 
}

That's where I lost my lead. I couldn't find what the 'tack' is, and what to do with this thing. Still, it's perfectly possible to find the biggest value that is safe for all ships to upgrade, and then to scale it making sure it won't go over this maximum. Still, thats a bad practice, so if anyone has any idea what this mysterious 'tack' is, please share;).
 
What if we prevent that function from executing for ships with closest point <=~0.23?
 
Excuse me my stupidity above; I hadn't actually read it through properly.

That tack code seems to work together with this section in PROGRAM\SEA_AI\AIShip.c:
Code: 
//KB - Tuning ships - Tack
//KB if ( sti(rCharacter.index) == 0 ) {Trace("KB - Tack before " + fClosestPoint);}
aref temparef;
int testtune=0;
makearef(temparef,rCharacter.ship);
if (CheckAttribute(temparef,"tune")) {
testtune = 1;
makearef(temparef,rCharacter.ship.tune);
if(CheckAttribute(temparef,"tack")) {
if ( sti(rCharacter.ship.tune.tack) > 0 ) {
fClosestPoint = fClosestPoint + stf(rCharacter.ship.tune.tackmod);
if ( fClosestPoint < 0.05 ) { fClosestPoint = 0.05; }
if ( fClosestPoint > 1 ) { fClosestPoint = 1; }
}
}
}
//KB if ( sti(rCharacter.index) == 0 ) {Trace("KB - Tack after " + fClosestPoint);}
//KB - END Tuning ships - Tack
I hope that sheds some light on things for you... :?
 
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