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Thoughts on the newest Build Mod

<!--quoteo(post=144110:date=Mar 31 2006, 06:30 AM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Mar 31 2006, 06:30 AM) [snapback]144110[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Ships of the period used some tar to seal gaps, but for the most part, well-finished oak boards kept the water out. A little varnish on the boards was about it. (Of course, it took good craftsmen to make boards fit so tight that they would hold water.) There was no substantial bulk of "sealant" in the ship.


Ron
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Sorry, I have to disagree with you on this point Ron, the gaps in the planks of ships in those days were caulked. This was a job done by skilled dockyard worker called caulkers. It involved filling the vessel's seams with oakum and cotton using caulking irons and hammer.
Perhaps a new crew member or a new skill for the carpenter???

The link below is for the Historic Dockyard at Chatham (my home town), which was an active Royal Dockyard from the time of Elizabeth I until the early 1980s. Over the years it built many of the Royal Navy's fomous ships including the Victory.

<a href="http://www.chdt.org/NetsiteCMS.php?pageid=155" target="_blank">http://www.chdt.org/NetsiteCMS.php?pageid=155</a>

Jackamo
 
OK, there was "caulking" - fabric or some kind of fiber (cotton, wool, whatever) and some form of chemical additive. The chemical was oakum, or tar, or heavy varnish, depending on who you ask. (Some countries, and some shipbuilders, had their own formulas.) This was placed below the waterline on hulls that were first built.

Repairs at sea lacked the ability to wedge such materials into place. They mostly nailed boards over the holes, and if they still leaked, sealed them as best they could, with whatever tar or varnish they could smear on a board and nail it down. You pretty much had to pull the ship out of the water to replace "caulking" below the waterline. Pulling the ship out of the water usually involved beaching it and waiting for the tide to go out, so it was quite a process.

But my statement still stands. Ship sealant was not something that came in a barrel that you could just transport and apply. Repairs at sea could not use the shipyard method. The boards were not covered in any chemical sealant - the boards kept water out, and the gaps were relatively small (as the 'caulking' would not hold up if the gaps were enough to let any water pressure through). Sure, a new hull with good caulking would stay warm and dry, while older ones tended to let in enough water to make the floor wet and slick - but that wasn't what made the ship float.

I was being too general. I did not intend to make this an academic paper on shipbuilding techniques. I was just pointing out that 'sealant' did not come in a keg, the way modern synthetics do. If you wanted to stop water in the 1600's, that's what the hull boards were for.

Ron
 
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was being too general. I did not intend to make this an academic paper on shipbuilding techniques. I was just pointing out that 'sealant' did not come in a keg, the way modern synthetics do. If you wanted to stop water in the 1600's, that's what the hull boards were for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No neither was I, but going back to the point of having various repair modes, if we have 'emergency' repairs at sea ie. to just patch up the ship to say no more than 75% hull integrity we could say that the instant repair at a safe anchorage would involve careening and would allow for 100% repair, including re-caulking. Therefore barels of ship repair goods such as oakum etc, and the necessary tools could become vital if you want to complete a repair without visiting a shipyard.
 
<!--quoteo(post=144132:date=Mar 31 2006, 02:06 PM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Mar 31 2006, 02:06 PM) [snapback]144132[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
.....
If a better ground combat AI can be put in place, I would be in favor of rebalancing the price of ships, cannon ammo, and small arms to a more historically accurate level.

......
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About ships pricing, I have the feeling that the ships are too cheap in the middle and last part of the game, and too expensive in the begining

I mean:

- When you starts, with 10000, you don't have enough money even to full load your ship with certains goods... don't speak about getting a better/new/improved ship

- After a time, when you start to get money, you can even to buy a Manowar (I have 3 millions, and a manowar y 1,8 aprox). For me, it's just small money....

So, perhaps, the cost of ships should be lowered for small ones, but to climb steeply with class and/or improvements ... so for a Manowar o Lineship you've to pay an inordinate amount of money ... almost impossible to buy.

In fact, the rich England at 1800 had serious trouble to just <b>keep</b> their lineships

Just my opinion

Kblack
 
The prices of ships, and trade goods (especially cannon ammo), are low compared to the prices of personal items. The price balance was done because the land fight scenes were always done with only a few officers. If you had to equip 50 marines with weapons and equipment to board a ship, then the price could be rebalanced.

Ships should be expensive. That's why not everybody owned one. Maintaining them should not be cheap either. (Like airplanes today.) Historically, small ships were the rule, frigates were serious firepower, and anything heavier than that was probably the flagship of some European nation. Major battles were staged with unrated vessels. In the current rendition, trade with a small ship would never make enough money to upgrade your personal sidearms, and pirates seem to have no trouble obtaining frigates. We've got a serious balance issue there.

I would be in favor of some limits on ship repairs when the ship is still moving, if they were done in a reasonable way. Problem would be deciding which repairs could be done at sea, and which ones required the ship be drydocked. One hit across the top cannon deck seems easy enough to repair with some boards and a hammer. One hit below the waterline, and anything you can do from inside the ship while it is floating would be patchwork at best. Unless somebody can come up with a formula that would give the illusion of different kinds of hits, I'm not sure the plan is workable.

If you just want a faster start, you can reset the start money in the buildsettings.h file to any number you want.
Ron
 
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would be in favor of some limits on ship repairs when the ship is still moving, if they were done in a reasonable way. Problem would be deciding which repairs could be done at sea, and which ones required the ship be drydocked. One hit across the top cannon deck seems easy enough to repair with some boards and a hammer. One hit below the waterline, and anything you can do from inside the ship while it is floating would be patchwork at best. Unless somebody can come up with a formula that would give the illusion of different kinds of hits, I'm not sure the plan is workable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Maybe this could be worked out on the percentage of damage done during an action. If hull integrity falls below, for instance 65%, it could be assumed that the ship has taken a hit below the waterline.
Not highly accurate, I know, but something that could be worked on.
 
More likely, it should be a bit of a random factor. One cannonball just happens to hit something and turn downward, punching a hole below the waterline on exit. If so, it would be a repair nightmare. You would need half the crew bailing water and the other half trying to cover the hole. And you wouldn't have all day to do this either.

Ron
 
It would be excellent if this could be worked in somehow.
I also think there should be some sort of time factor linked to fires so that if you don't get your crew to put them out fast enough they spread to the powder magazine - Boom!!!

Would make things a little more tactical, do you execute the fire drill or can you squeeze in another broadside at that enemy ship???
 
Well, my ideas on fire were in a thread about damage model. I said fire should spread on its own, as a result of small secondary explosions or just burning wood. It should do a lot more damage to the crew than the hull - tons of waterlogged oak don't burn like gasoline, but humans can't take all that much heat. Forget the "fire drill", just run a chance of fire going out based on crew number and a skill or two (defense, or maybe leadership), plus a chance of it spreading (i.e. creating another fire). There was no single fire suppression technique that always worked in this period - it was just a question of getting enough guys with buckets of water to beat it out.

Ron
 
Well we already have the fire drill built into the game, I'm only suggesting that this could be played with to increase the need for tactical thinking during battles.
Are you saying that all the timbers of a wooden ship are water-logged? What was the point of the varnish and tar applied to then then? Are you saying that if you touched the internal sides of a ship they would be damp? No wooden ships were made of seasoned treated wood that would burn easily. That was why there were such strict rule governing such things as the smoking of pipes and the use of naked flames between decks and why galley stoves were built into brick surrounds.
Fire would spread on wooden ships quite easily if left un-checked especially if fallen sails were set on fire by burning wads from cannon fire. It would not be unusual for a ship to burn to the waterline or for the magazine to explode.
What we need to look for here and in all modding, is a balance between fun gameplay and the realities of the time.
 
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/piratesing.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shock" border="0" alt="piratesing.gif" />

Avast thar ye scurvy Dogs, this be a neat thread tew be sure, and I love the debates, and ideas. However I felt the need tew be speakin up on this ere "fire issue"

1st: the need tew be tinkering on the "Fire Mod" is a must....seems like everytime I gots hit, by cannon fire afore my computer went down,( say about January sometime ), I was called upon tew be puttin out fires, and dumping me ammo and reefin in me sails, which was automatic when fires broke out. This drove me crazy and I eventually turned off this ere mod in the Build settings, because it was tew overdone. This mod really needs an overhaul, I thinks the basics of this ere mod is good, but the random chance of fires were caused usually by burnin "wads" that were some how fired far enough to set alight something in the enemy ship ( and this was only at very close quarters, cause they didnt carry far being non solids, usually made of ring ropes or wet cotton) Either that or a lit lantern was dropped/spilled/blasted from a carrying seamen, or the ships magazine got hit, or sparks in the magazine.

BUT!!! fires being "put out" was one of the first things a Captain orders his crew to do afore going into a battle, specially "dousing the galley fires" which like "Capt' Jackamo" said were in Protected Brick Surrounds. THIS was the worsed feared Enemy of wooden ships, and sorry tew "Ron Losey" but ships of that time period were very much at the mercy of Fire. This Aversion to 10,000 tons of waterlogged Oak, are very much Wrong. The ropes were tarred black, and there was alot of ropes or "rigging", the sails went up like torches, the decks were sanded regularly to prevent crews from slippin, especially in their own blood, and usually with "Holly stones", that unlike today, didn't make them smoother, but roughed them up. This would create alot of dust or wood chips that went between the deck seams. Also the water, just like today around your swimming pool or the lake, pulls in the sun or heat, and increases your "sunburn", Well it did the same to Wooden ships. The ships boats like the jolly boats or gigs were towed in the sea behind the parent Ship regularly to prevent the boards from leaking or expanding in the sun, and this is referring to mostly the Caribbean. So contrary to popular belief a wooden ship above the waterline was more drier than the same ship would have been on land say! Plus that and the ships were usually Caulked, with Pitch (tar) and Oakum, which I beleave is a fiber like substance, sort of like dry fiberglass. So all in all the ships of those days if she caught fire, usually went up like kindling and were abandoned long afore the crew could douse them, because one thing Ron said was ver true....Men could not stand the heat or take the panic. Ships usually burned tew the waterline or the Ship blasted out her guts when the powder went up as the fire hit the magazine. Either way the crew was long dead or had abandoned ship. So fires breakin out aboard ship every second round of cannon fire, that the Fire Mod seems tew beleave tew be realistic is "BULLSHIT" (oops....am I allowed tew be sayin that).

2nd: However, great marks tew Ron for is talk about realistic damage tew ships because of flyin splinters and cannon fire way more that ships sinkin, mind you, one "broadside" from a Man-o-War would turn a Schooner or Brig into a mastless hulk in seconds, an she'd be lucky not tew be turnin turtle and sinkin real quick....when they did roll over they went down quciker then men could get out of her. The game needs tew be adding more sail and Spars/masts damage then she's got right now, I have been playing POTC for awhile now, and I have never seen a mast go over or spars fall from aloft, now this is unrealistic tew be saying the least. However that may be limitations tew the mast stuctures at the moment, but I have been told they fall over or go missing , but not for me yet. The damage Ron was talking about is worth tryin in other ways, other than his reference tew fire....that was a "Killer" tew be sure. Sinking should be cut back, and men/sail/mast damage should be increased, and the surrender mod was great, cause men could only take so much, but the fire thing needs major cutbacks....

Mind yew, everyone can disagree with me, tew be sure........but if we make it tew realistic, hopes we don't leave the fun behind....

P.S. can't we make a change so we can send a prize crew tew the nearest port with captured ship other than toat them along with us tew the limit of 4 ships.....and collect the prize money later ??
 
My comments about fire have been mis-read. Wood ships DID burn. Many burned to the waterline. They burned hot enough that controlling fire was a major issue, and a small or badly trained crew could loose control of a fire very quickly.

My point on the fire is that it takes a LONG time for a whole ship to burn to the waterline and sink. They don't just take "hull damage" and then turn up on end and sink after a few seconds of burning. The fire spreads slowly until in engulfs the ship. Heat and secondary explosions kill the crew. By the time enough wood has burned to start causing the ship to take water, everything else was destroyed 30 minutes ago. Same thing with a modern house fire - if uncontrolled, a wood frame house fire will turn to an inferno in about 7 minutes, killing anyone inside, but it will burn for another 20 minutes before the roof falls in. If you start fighting the fire while it is small, you have a good chance of limiting its spread. If not, about every ten seconds you wait cuts your chances of beating it out in half. Wood ships (or modern warships, for that matter) are the same way. Fire does not just burn a hole in the hull, unless you drop a round of white phosphorous on them. Fire starts small and gets bigger until it becomes a major problem.

I had this on another thread, where I suggested a fire model like this. Fire should do hull damage much more slowly, but should do crew damage at a substantial rate. Every fire on a ship should have a chance of creating more fire. Crewmen, multiplied by some skill level, should have a chance of beating out some fires. I think my formula from before was on page one of "thoughts on the newest build mod". Anyway, I had some numbers where fire could either spread or be put out, depending on who is fighting fire. If fire spreads enough, it should leave the ship a lifeless burning hull (that could sit in the water burning for hours). It should NOT, and I repeat, NOT just burn through the bottom of the hull and make the ship sink. That's white phosphorous that causes that effect, not black powder. It takes 30 minutes to 2 hours to burn a wood ship, even if you just pour gasoline across the deck and light it. Takes longer if somebody is trying to put the fire out.

Fires did break out frequently. Most were controlled quickly. Those that were not controlled quickly became major problems for the crew, rigging and equipment. The hull, however, was the very last thing to go. The current model is going very much in the wrong order.

Ron
 
Thanks to everyone that has made the Build mod such a great success. I know it was a ways back in this discusion but earlier the idea was brought up to dissable the Ammo mod yourself if you weren't happy with it. I was trying to configure or disable the Ammo mod in Buildsettings.h (as it suggests in the JRH Ammo Mod Readme) but there doesn't seem to be any variables for this mod in the Buildsettings.h file. Am I missing something in the file or is there another way to turn it off? Or is this a known issue that will be resolved in a later build?
I currently have the 5 March 2006 Update of the Post 12 build.

Thanks again everyone who has made this a great mod.

Requin
 
If you are using the 5 March Post Build 12 version, there should be a variable ENABLE_AMMOMOD in BuildSettings.h. Set it to 0 and the ammo mod should be turned off.
 
if its not there, then maybe you did the same mistake i did a few months ago and left the build setting of an older version there instead of the one that came with the 5 March Post Build modpack update.
just open the March 5 update file and copy the buildsettings text document to PROGRAM [or is it PROGRAMS? what ever it is, its inside PoTC's file].
HTH! [Hope That Helps!]
 
can someone give me some help?
which was the last reasonably working version of the build?
if i remember correctly the March version worked quite well. the one i'm asking about was the last update before this disaster happened.
i have a collection of various post build updates, but i van't remember which one is the right one!
 
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hi.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":gday" border="0" alt="hi.gif" />

Avast thar Lord Nelson, I was testing the Build for those CTD's and I downloaded so many patches and updates through Pieter, that I lost track meself. I believe if you follow the <i>Post Build 12 Modpack</i> thread, starting with March 5th and adding "<b>temp_upd_1.zip</b>", <b>temp_upd_2.zip</b>, <b>temp_upd_3.zip</b>, and a later update "<b>post_b12_full_upd_22-4-06~.rar</b>", you will have a good solid game. But there was one last update around April 30th, that fired in a bunch of really New annoying bugs, and we are in the process of seeing if a new round of "fixes" from "fudgedragon" and "giuliootto" will fixed some or all of these. After April 22nd I would stop and wait for further updates from Pieter.

Hope this helps, as this is too the best of my Memory
 
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/modding.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":modding" border="0" alt="modding.gif" />

I might suggest you start by cleaning out your "<b> Personal Message account or enabling said Personal Message account </b>" this way if any one wanted to talk to you they could....not saying anyone is...just in case so to speak

Im sure you understand <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/buds.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":drunk" border="0" alt="buds.gif" />
 
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