<!--quoteo(post=156611:date=Aug 5 2006, 07:19 PM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Aug 5 2006, 07:19 PM) [snapback]156611[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I'm sure it's not the new models/reskins that are not liked. It's the sailing characteristics that the problems lie with. And I can imagine that there are several new ships in the game that don't have as realistic or well-balanced sailing characteristics as they maybe should have. But as soon as the sailing characteristics are balanced properly, all those ships will work great in the game. Right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
Note about Pirate ships: There are two types of pirate ships: Pirate ships that are being named Pirate ship in the ships_init file (such as the Pirate Corvette) and the Pirate design versions of the ships that are being generated by the game itself. There is a structural difference between these two types of ships. Theoretically you could encounter an English design Pirate corvette (if she was set to CanBuy/CanEncounter).
If you buy/encounter a ship, the ship will have a nation of origin. Based on this nation, the sailing characteristics are different. I think these variations are being generated by the function SetRandomStatsToShip(aref chrship, int idx, int nat) in PROGRAM\Ships\Ships.c, but I don't understand entirely how it works.
It appears that if you set refShip.unique for a ship, the stats will not be modified by this mod. Maybe this should be set for the unique ships by Petros, such as the Pirate Corvette. Then you know for certain that the statistics for that ship ingam are the same as they are in ships_init.c with no variation.
I hope that somebody can explain exactly with which version of pirate ships he has a problem and please also say what this problem is exactly. I'm sure something can be done abot it that is not removing pirate ships out of the game entirely. I wouldn't want to remove them from the game entirely, but we might be able to figure out how to make these types of ships less good.
The Privateer has cannon MaxCalibre set to 12. Is that too much?
Who is working on balancing the sailing characteristics? Can you please post a list of all changes you propose?
BTW: It doesn't really matter if the size of the crew members is correct or not, because we can't really change it. Or maybe we CAN change it, but it will be very hard and not really worth the effort. The problem is that if you resize the crewmembers, you also have to resize the animation and editing animation is something that nobody really seems to be capable of doing.
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Thanks for the lengthy explanation. Btw, as an aside, the Aug 3 update link is down.
What i meant when reffering to historical ships and the models ingame, is that the ingame ships are somewhat off - many small ships have far too much armament - even a yacht has some 12 cannons - yet the only non-trade ships with 20 or more are frigates, corvettes and brigs. The large xebecs and so forth that existed in reality are not present, and the choice is very limited.
Now the problem with the models is that they have guns physically on them. Thats why there are so many reskins that 'add' guns by painting on gunports, but not a single one that removes a gun (without leaving it on the model).
Hence, you cant really scale down the number of guns on a lugger to more realistic levels. Likewise, noone has modelled a large xebec.
On the issue of sailing characteristics - i think the balance is very good overall, but unfortunately there are people who want to introduce 'special' ships, which are in fact unbalanced, and make obsolete all other ships of that type for no apparent reason. These are far less extreme than in previous builds (i remember when the xebec barbarossa was 5 knots faster than the norm), but they still sneak in.
I might be picking on the privateer, but lets face it - it sails as well into the wind as a sloop, its faster and more maneouvrable than a brig, (which is also a sloop of war) and has cannons as large and as numerous.
The critical question when you see a ship like that is - 'how?' - and unfortunately, when the model IS that of a brig, you assume it IS a brig. Its rigging is certainly not that different to justify completely different qualities.
Lets go a step further, and assume it has different rigging, giving it these advantages on a brig hull - why dont other brigs have this rigging? If this 'miracle' rigging allows it to tack like a sloop and sail with the wind like a corvette, why is it not widely adopted?
Essentially, the privateer OBSOLETES all other brigs, a fact that really is without foundation in either history or the logic of the game. If you are going to give it realistic advantages because of its rigging, give it realistic disadvantages that the different rigging would cause.
As for my grievance with 'pirate' versions - its simple - ive already located how the ships_init.c file works - some unique pirate ships have been added, and the modders on these have generally given them one class larger guns - once again, totally unbalancing everything and rendering the normal ships obsolete.
But the normal ships are also subject to being built by the 'pirate' nationality, and subject to its multipliers - and lo and behold, the pirates get a ship with 1.5 times larger cannons. Which could work, but ive tried it, and its just not balanced. See, the disadvantages dont even-out the massive advantage of larger calibre guns. So that means, that once again, the pirate version is THE version to have, and all others are made somewhat obsolete.
My main argument is stupidly simple - the addition of privateers, gaff rigged xebecs, pirate super frigates etc, render all other ships of that type pointless, and thus LIMIT, rather than EXTEND the choice available, unless you refuse to use them - in which case you will often encounter them using their advantages against YOU.
They therefore do not fit or help gameplay, and should be modified.
I'm sure it's not the new models/reskins that are not liked. It's the sailing characteristics that the problems lie with. And I can imagine that there are several new ships in the game that don't have as realistic or well-balanced sailing characteristics as they maybe should have. But as soon as the sailing characteristics are balanced properly, all those ships will work great in the game. Right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
Note about Pirate ships: There are two types of pirate ships: Pirate ships that are being named Pirate ship in the ships_init file (such as the Pirate Corvette) and the Pirate design versions of the ships that are being generated by the game itself. There is a structural difference between these two types of ships. Theoretically you could encounter an English design Pirate corvette (if she was set to CanBuy/CanEncounter).
If you buy/encounter a ship, the ship will have a nation of origin. Based on this nation, the sailing characteristics are different. I think these variations are being generated by the function SetRandomStatsToShip(aref chrship, int idx, int nat) in PROGRAM\Ships\Ships.c, but I don't understand entirely how it works.
It appears that if you set refShip.unique for a ship, the stats will not be modified by this mod. Maybe this should be set for the unique ships by Petros, such as the Pirate Corvette. Then you know for certain that the statistics for that ship ingam are the same as they are in ships_init.c with no variation.
I hope that somebody can explain exactly with which version of pirate ships he has a problem and please also say what this problem is exactly. I'm sure something can be done abot it that is not removing pirate ships out of the game entirely. I wouldn't want to remove them from the game entirely, but we might be able to figure out how to make these types of ships less good.
The Privateer has cannon MaxCalibre set to 12. Is that too much?
Who is working on balancing the sailing characteristics? Can you please post a list of all changes you propose?
BTW: It doesn't really matter if the size of the crew members is correct or not, because we can't really change it. Or maybe we CAN change it, but it will be very hard and not really worth the effort. The problem is that if you resize the crewmembers, you also have to resize the animation and editing animation is something that nobody really seems to be capable of doing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the lengthy explanation. Btw, as an aside, the Aug 3 update link is down.
What i meant when reffering to historical ships and the models ingame, is that the ingame ships are somewhat off - many small ships have far too much armament - even a yacht has some 12 cannons - yet the only non-trade ships with 20 or more are frigates, corvettes and brigs. The large xebecs and so forth that existed in reality are not present, and the choice is very limited.
Now the problem with the models is that they have guns physically on them. Thats why there are so many reskins that 'add' guns by painting on gunports, but not a single one that removes a gun (without leaving it on the model).
Hence, you cant really scale down the number of guns on a lugger to more realistic levels. Likewise, noone has modelled a large xebec.
On the issue of sailing characteristics - i think the balance is very good overall, but unfortunately there are people who want to introduce 'special' ships, which are in fact unbalanced, and make obsolete all other ships of that type for no apparent reason. These are far less extreme than in previous builds (i remember when the xebec barbarossa was 5 knots faster than the norm), but they still sneak in.
I might be picking on the privateer, but lets face it - it sails as well into the wind as a sloop, its faster and more maneouvrable than a brig, (which is also a sloop of war) and has cannons as large and as numerous.
The critical question when you see a ship like that is - 'how?' - and unfortunately, when the model IS that of a brig, you assume it IS a brig. Its rigging is certainly not that different to justify completely different qualities.
Lets go a step further, and assume it has different rigging, giving it these advantages on a brig hull - why dont other brigs have this rigging? If this 'miracle' rigging allows it to tack like a sloop and sail with the wind like a corvette, why is it not widely adopted?
Essentially, the privateer OBSOLETES all other brigs, a fact that really is without foundation in either history or the logic of the game. If you are going to give it realistic advantages because of its rigging, give it realistic disadvantages that the different rigging would cause.
As for my grievance with 'pirate' versions - its simple - ive already located how the ships_init.c file works - some unique pirate ships have been added, and the modders on these have generally given them one class larger guns - once again, totally unbalancing everything and rendering the normal ships obsolete.
But the normal ships are also subject to being built by the 'pirate' nationality, and subject to its multipliers - and lo and behold, the pirates get a ship with 1.5 times larger cannons. Which could work, but ive tried it, and its just not balanced. See, the disadvantages dont even-out the massive advantage of larger calibre guns. So that means, that once again, the pirate version is THE version to have, and all others are made somewhat obsolete.
My main argument is stupidly simple - the addition of privateers, gaff rigged xebecs, pirate super frigates etc, render all other ships of that type pointless, and thus LIMIT, rather than EXTEND the choice available, unless you refuse to use them - in which case you will often encounter them using their advantages against YOU.
They therefore do not fit or help gameplay, and should be modified.