Fix in Progress Demasted AI and retreat order

[Tingyun]

Yesterday I had a day long break and could finally play a bit, and I figured out how easy it is to demast enemy ships with manually aimed cannonballs. Very fun.

However, the problem arises in how the demasted AI behaves.

The AIship file will tell a wounded AI to retreat, and there is no check in place to see if they are at 0 sails. Consequently, the demasted AI ships picks a line and heads straight along it at a snail's pace trying to retreat, leaving the player free to park his ship is the diagnal corner blindspot of the AI and just sit still while firing volley after volley and experiencing no return fire.

If a demasted AI ship is not yet ready to surrender, it should cease retreating and do its best to apply the rudder and try to get an angle to fire at the player. Doing the snail's pace retreat in a straight line makes it a bit too easy.

Also, being demasted should give a significant morale hit to the AI to make them more likely to surrender.


Btw, side question, but am I correct that it is easier to break the AI ship's mast with normal cannonballs instead of chain? Not sure if it is the greater range making manual aiming easier, but I got that impression after trying both. Only ever demasted one ship with chain, while with normal cannonballs the masts were coming down much more reliably.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I do always use chain for that purpose, but I honestly don't know for sure....

 

[Tingyun]

Looked it up, and bringing down a mast:

1) has equal chances for cannonballs and chain (but 0 chance for grape) (Assuming there isn't some collision detection kind of reason where the chain has a larger impact area)

2) is much more likely when range is closer (which explains why coming up right next to them is so reliable at bringing them down)

3) is more likely if using chasers, especially if good chasers

4) is unaffected by cannon caliber


I fixed one of the other issues mentioned in the thread in the broader AI improvements file I put out yesterday (making sails damage, and especially demasting the ship, make the enemy somewhat more likely to surrender).

I didn't make the other change, having demasted enemies always try to turn and fight rather than continuing to ineffectually run, because no one else has said they agree with me on that yet, and I didn't want to make any potentially objectionable or controversial changes (I tried to keep the AI changes to stuff that should be clear objective improvements).

 

[KillPhil]

I'd like to add here that if you use chasers, your crew always will fire slightly above the ship's hull - which will result in a complete demast in one salvo (with large enough cannons) and then you have to manually aim to hit the ship at all because the crew just fires over the hull and behind the ship. I think this might be because the chasers add a slight range bonus, and that the game doesnt calculate that in the crew firing?

 

[Levis]

Personally if a ship is completly demasted it should probably surrender ...

 

[Grey Roger]

Why? You're going to do one of three things:

• Keep on pounding him, in which case the usual surrender mechanism for the ship being damaged will apply;
• Pound him until you run out of ammo, give up and go away, which suits him;
• Board him, which also suits him as it's now the only way he can hope to do anything to you.

Either you're doing what he wants, so why would he surrender; or you're doing enough damage that he's going to surrender anyway. Also, a naval or pirate ship might prefer to be sunk rather than to surrender - the navy captain out of honour ("Fall into the hands of God, not into the hands of Spain!"), the pirate because "no quarter given or expected", he knows he's going to hang anyway if he surrenders.

 

[Levis]

Why? You're going to do one of three things:

• Keep on pounding him, in which case the usual surrender mechanism for the ship being damaged will apply;
• Pound him until you run out of ammo, give up and go away, which suits him;
• Board him, which also suits him as it's now the only way he can hope to do anything to you.

Either you're doing what he wants, so why would he surrender; or you're doing enough damage that he's going to surrender anyway. Also, a naval or pirate ship might prefer to be sunk rather than to surrender - the navy captain out of honour ("Fall into the hands of God, not into the hands of Spain!"), the pirate because "no quarter given or expected", he knows he's going to hang anyway if he surrenders.

hmmm true, I forgot the normal surrender mechanism will still kick in ... guess in that case it shouldn't matter. Maybe even work the other way around and make him at least shoot all his ammo where possible.

 

[Grey Roger]

I would imagine that if he hasn't surrendered and you sail into one of his firing arcs, he will indeed take the opportunity to fire if he still has ammo. So no change should be needed there.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I would imagine that if he hasn't surrendered and you sail into one of his firing arcs, he will indeed take the opportunity to fire if he still has ammo.

For certain.

 

[Tingyun]

hmmm true, I forgot the normal surrender mechanism will still kick in

It still does matter actually--the normal surrender mechanism has hard ties to minimum morale, and in the example I posted of a compilelog for surrenders under the new system, a ship had 6% HP, was surrounded by three warships, had its sails torn up, and yet had a morale in the 50s while its minimum surrender morale was 14, meaning it was never ever going to surrender. Which makes sense for the crew not forcing surrender (they won't mutiny), but is crazy that the captain can't consider and decide on a surrender based on the tactical situation.

And a merchant ship that is demasted by a ship of the line and is sitting helpless, should not need to wait to have its hull filled with cannonshot before surrendering.

Happilly, all fixed with the new concurrent surrender system, which allows captains to decide on a surrender rather than just having mutinous crews forcing it. Demasting provides 3 reasons for surrender, a merchant ship provides 1, so if the enemy ship is much more powerful and the merchant has no friends around, it will go ahead and surrender. Pirates will likely fight on for awhile though, and need a much greater powerratio, and no ship that still has cannon and remaining hull power anywehere close to the player will surrender, they will need to be beaten down.

Which I think is a much more immersive and interesting tactical situation.

I would imagine that if he hasn't surrendered and you sail into one of his firing arcs, he will indeed take the opportunity to fire if he still has ammo. So no change should be needed there.

The problem is they will keep trying to run, rather than use their rudder to try getting a firing arc. It is silly they just keep trying to sail away at close to 0 speed, and the player can park at a diagnol and fire unopposed, when they could use their rudder. In my opinion if they aren't surrendering they should try to do their best to get a firing arc and stop trying to run away.

Which I could easily change (it was what I proposed in the first post), but I don't want to do so unless other people agree.

Maybe even work the other way around and make him at least shoot all his ammo where possible.

Is that agreement on the change then? To have demasted enemies stop trying to run and try to turn to get a firing arc on the player?

 

[Levis]

Is that agreement on the change then? To have demasted enemies stop trying to run and try to turn to get a firing arc on the player?

I'd say as long as you are demasted and not yet ready to surrender you will try to shoot as many holes as possible in the enemy. So yeah go ahead and make sure that works

 

[Tingyun]

Great, I'll add a check to force demasted enemies to turn and fight.

(I always thought it was silly, how they kept trying to sail away at 0.5 speed, and I would just hide in their diagonal arc and pound them away)....

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Is that agreement on the change then? To have demasted enemies stop trying to run and try to turn to get a firing arc on the player?

I don't see why not. Makes sense to me.
If you can't run and aren't yet surrendered, you might as well put up the best fight you possibly can!