Dutch Culture

[Pieter Boelen]

I was just part of this conversation on Facebook:

"Expecting kindness from dutch? Good luck, you will need plenty."

"there is a portion of ignorant people in every nation."

"in this nation its very high. That portion."

"we are way past that. Now we are only hoping that it doesn’t get physical."

"i don’t think it’s higher than in other places really. "

"this comment is horrible - xenophobic much?"

"math & field experience > your thinking

xenophobic? Just go out there and socialize with people as a foreigner. I dont say things out of thin air."

"I do and have many Dutch friends"

"The artist who made this comic isn't living in the Netherlands, but go off I guess. Anything is a good excuse to bash the Dutch "

"your experience does not matter just like mine, you need to apply math and field experience in order to have an opinion considered as valid."

"Back in 2014, I was working at sea together with a very kind and somewhat elderly second officer. He told me in his experience mostly all Dutch people had a bit of a 'mean streak'.

I didn't know what he meant. Found it difficult to believe he was right and figured he must've just been unlucky in the Dutch people he had encountered.

Back in those days, I hadn't had much dealings with normal Dutch people.
I have now. And I realise, he did have a point.

It makes me ashamed to be Dutch. "

"most of the time they are ok with respect and care for nature etc, like a good person should be. But just sometimes they act so self-centered and opportunistic and mean, you find yourself thinking: Is this the same person i think i know? Was everything just a show? They can have many different faces depending on the situation and place, and behave differently and unconsistently. Sometimes so arrogant when gossiping or talking about someone, full of jealousy. I personally like transparent people, in-and-out. I like open books and get-what-you-see, not books full of mysteries when it comes to friends / acquaintaces.

I find many of them stubborn (what i say is correct no matter what, because i am always right as long as I have the correct wording / argumentations), and competitive (they often rank themselves to others and thats where they find their happiness and sadness from, my neighbour has a new car, I cant afford it, my cousin went to bahamas and i could only go to indonesia i am jealous). They let their feelings capture their mood and always act me-first, thats because the culture around here is me, myself and I. If you dig into the language and literature, it becomes very self evident. Think of yourself first, then others is not a culture of finding consensus or sharing. I believe thats also the reason why many find it hard to make new friends and only stick with 1-2 friends from their childhood."

This was in a group of expats living in The Netherlands.
Bold is the same person. Italics is me.
The rest are various other people.

 

[The Nameless Pirate]

Well, I am not sure.

From my experience with Dutch people (mostly you), good people exist.

Like in every county, there are the mean people and the nice people.

Saying things like: "Expecting kindness from dutch? Good luck, you will need plenty."
To me sounds just like mean; stereotypical thinking.

For example saying that all Greeks are welcoming and warm towards everyone; is just stereotypical.

I have met many Greek a**holes.

 

[Cerez]

I agree with Ted.

Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of learning much about Dutch culture, but what I've read above is modern culture in developed countries in general these days. The focus on the ego and the drifting away from a group/community mentality is something that has been happening for decades in all developed countries world-wide (and it seems to be reaching its peak in this decade). I find it is actually stronger in Australia, and particularly dominant in the US. Here even when people talk about working together, and acting as one, they are mostly really acting for themselves and thinking about their own interests -- particularly in urban areas.

Discrimination and a racist/ableist/anti-foreigner sentiment is something that some people engage in everywhere, so I definitely don't see it as a Dutch cultural thing. I'm not sure about the "mean streak", and what it implies.

I definitely do not agree with the bashing of a country, its culture, and its people. I do agree with being critical about cultures you know well, but every culture has positive aspects to it as well as negative. It is better to take the positive from it, and to not focus on the negative -- to acknowledge/know and leave the negative behind.

These days, wherever I turn I encounter both the occasional racist and the constant ableist and coronavirus-fear-and-culture-related discriminative and strutinising sentiment. It doesn't help that, being autistic, on my bad days I lose from my ability to speak, and my Australian accent regresses to a foreign mix -- which coupled with my broken speech and "unusual" behaviour ends up drawing even more scrutiny and stares.

But when these things happen, when I feel the mean eyes on me, I just act natural and push on, trying to get out of people's hair as soon as possible. And then, once I've distanced myself from their imbalanced reactions/behaviour, I focus on the positive things in my life, and I try to spread a culture of acceptance and understanding -- doing my little bit to help against the spread of fear, hate, and ignorance.

A lot of the times when I speak to people in writing, and I explain to them the whole perspective in a subject/argument, they are left without much to say, but much to think about. The next time they go out and are confronted with the same situation, they may think twice about their actions -- because with more knowledge, with larger awareness, comes a more balanced perspective.

Hope this bit of insight helps.

You can't control other people's actions -- but you can baffle/inspire them, and lead by example. You can control your own perspective and actions.

 

[Cerez]

In 1954, Albert Einstein published this writing of his:

‘An Ideal of Service to Our Fellow Man’
Princeton, New Jersey, circa November 1954

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the Mysterious — the knowledge of the existence of something unfathomable to us, the manifestation of the most profound reason coupled with the most brilliant beauty. I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, or who has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves. I am satisfied with the mystery of life's eternity and with the awareness of — and glimpse into — the marvelous construction of the existing world together with the steadfast determination to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature. This is the basics of cosmic religiosity, and it appears to me that the most important function of art and science is to awaken this feeling among the receptive and keep it alive.

I sense that it is not the State that has intrinsic value in the machinery of humankind, but rather the creative, feeling individual, the personality alone that creates the noble and sublime.

Man's ethical behavior should be effectively grounded on compassion, nurture and social bonds. What is moral is not the divine, but rather a purely human matter, albeit the most important of all human matters. In the course of history, the ideals pertaining to human beings' behavior towards each other and pertaining to the preferred organization of their communities have been espoused and taught by enlightened individuals. These ideals and convictions — results of historical experience, empathy and the need for beauty and harmony — have usually been willingly recognized by human beings, at least in theory.

The highest principles for our aspirations and judgments are given to us westerners in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition. It is a very high goal: free and responsible development of the individual, so that he may place his powers freely and gladly in the service of all mankind.

The pursuit of recognition for their own sake, an almost fanatical love of justice and the quest for personal independence form the traditional themes of the Jewish people, of which I am a member.

But if one holds these high principles clearly before one's eyes and compares them with the life and spirit of our times, then it is glaringly apparent that mankind finds itself at present in grave danger. I see the nature of the current crises in the juxtaposition of the individual to society. The individual feels more than ever dependent on society, but he feels this dependence not in the positive sense — cradled, connected as part of an organic. He sees it as a threat to his natural rights and even his economic existence. His position in society, then, is such that that which drives his ego is encouraged and developed, and that which would drive him toward other men (a weak impulse to begin with) is left to atrophy.

It is my belief that there is only one way to eliminate these evils, namely, the establishment of a planned economy coupled with an education geared towards social goals. Alongside the development of individual abilities, the education of the individual aspires to revive an ideal that is geared towards the service of our fellow man, and that needs to take the place of the glorification of power and outer success.

Translation by David Domine. Essay courtesy of the Albert Einstein Archives at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Not much has changed since -- in fact things have only progressed to the more extreme. A valuing of individuality is a good thing, but if taken to extremes, it has its very much negative consequences -- which we're at this point in human history truly beginning to see.

Everything in balance -- remember the philosophy of the 'golden mean'.

So I believe this is modern, western world culture, by which Dutch culture, too, is influenced. It is not exclusive to the Dutch people. And it is only this way because it has been allowed to reach an imbalanced extreme.

We need not point at different branches of a sick/dying tree, and hack at them -- we need to study the roots to learn more about the fundamental cause, so that we can act in good balance and responsibly.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Thanks mateys.
It does help.

And I agree... I fair bit of this stuff is certainly not exclusively Dutch.

It IS true though that the Dutch are seen, worldwide, as very outspoken and often quite rude.
Moreso apparently than other nationalities.

At sea, I often felt more connected to my British or other non-Dutch colleagues.
Of course I also grew up in a thoroughly multi-cultural environment.
Ever since I got a fixed job ashore, I've been feeling like a stranger in my own land.
And many of my friends are still non-Dutch.
Make of that what you will.

From my experience with Dutch people (mostly you), good people exist.

There were two things I failed to mention in my previous post.
The person who made the remark at sea was British.
And the context was that he felt I was the exception to the rule.

In other words, according to him, no 'mean streak' here.
I think it's one of the highest compliments anyone ever paid me.

Still trying to understand the true meaning of it though.
As well as trying to live up to it...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Another conversation from the same Facebook group:

"You're telling me Sateh Sauce DOESN'T have taste?
How about Drop(TM)???"

"So you’re saying that sateh and the sauce are Dutch cuisine?? That’s a whole other thread."

"Yes. Very Dutch. Very, very Dutch.
Even more Dutch than, say, shawarma!

You can find it in every snackbar.
And what could be more Dutch than a snackbar?"

"Sateh Sauce from Dutch Afhaalchinees having taste? Not the bland sugary bastardization supplied by your neighborhood Chinese/Indo place.

What could be more Dutch? Not realizing how lacking in depth the taste of that sugary or salty "food" is and refusing to admit when you're wrong."

"I take it you caught my sarcasm, then?

Calling Sateh Dutch was nutty enough (hehe; see what I did there?).
But Shawarma being Dutch too?
That's complete and utter poppycock!!
"

Italics is me again.
Bold is one of the group admins.

For context, Sateh is peanut sauce from Indonesia.
It's basically been 'culturally apropriated' here.
Very common in every cafeteria and "Chinese" (actually Indonesian) restaurant.
It's considered an 'acquire taste' and many foreigners don't like it.

Drop is liquorice and especially the Dutch kind is often VERY strongly flavoured.
Usually salty.
So... Candy. That is salty!
Again, generally hated by many non-Dutch people.

Shawarma is Turkish.
Also commonly found in regular Dutch cafeterias.

 

[Cerez]

In other words, according to him, no 'mean streak' here.
I think it's one of the highest compliments anyone ever paid me.

Still trying to understand the true meaning of it though.

I think he meant that you are a kind and understanding person, seeking the balanced truth -- which you really are, at heart.

You need only to stay humble and to listen to your intuition to stay on this path -- and to keep learning and researching, looking for the roots of things.

In my experience, "mean" is often a matter of perspective. A lot of neurotypical people think autistic people are being mean when we are sharing something earnestly and actually trying to selflessly help the other person.

To be truly mean, one needs to have a harmful intent. I don't believe the majority of Dutch people have a harmful intent towards one another. I think they are simply more critical and/or more honest when sharing their perspective. But, again, I'm not very familiar with Dutch culture yet.

One thing that I do know (from tourist and travelling citizen witness accounts, by online research) is that this supposed 'meanness' evaporates (or lightens up) as you go further into the rural areas in the Netherlands. So it may be a feature of urban Dutch culture. And egotism, as I mentioned above, is generally more prevalent in more densely populated, urban areas.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

this supposed 'meanness' evaporates (or lightens up) as you go further into the rural areas in the Netherlands.

Hmm... Not sure about that.
I believe they can be pretty narrow-minded out there in the farmlands.
And then there is the "Bible belt"...

 

[Cerez]

I believe they can be pretty narrow-minded out there in the farmlands.

The stereotype/idea that people living in rural areas are uneducated is a false one in this day and age, where education is readily available to all citizens.

People in the country, living in smaller communities, do tend to be more wary of (and/or cold/hostile to) newcomers, but they are generally closer and friendlier towards one another. They have learned to work together, to rely on each other, and, generally speaking, this 'together' mentality is expressed stronger in their culture.

I'm not saying that either culture and living environment is bad -- both have their positives and negatives -- just that rural culture is quite different to urban culture, and that perhaps that 'meanness' may not be so present, or not in the same way, in Dutch rural culture.

 

[Cerez]

I apologise in advance for bringing my current special interest (focus) and research into this as well, but if you watch an episode from the original, 1986 animated series of My Little Pony and compare it to an episode in the 2010 Friendship is Magic series, you'll see an enormous, unmistakable cultural shift in general from a focus on community to a focus on the individual. In only 24 years, our culture has shifted dramatically.

In the original series, the individuality of the characters (ponies) is not emphasised at all (this is something the original series is criticised for these days), to the point, in fact, that some characters struggle finding themselves altogether (see "Sweet Stuff and the Treasure Hunt"). The focus instead is on using everyone's resources collectively, as a family/group/community, to overcome hardships/obstacles. All the ponies act as one, even though they do have very different personalities (and interests and skills), if you pay attention. They are more than willing to lay their ego aside for the welfare of the group (the only character who is not willing to do that, in fact -- in the film, Baby Lickety Split -- ends up in trouble with the community and learning their lesson the hard way, through a trialsome adventure). Even the human characters in the series act as an extension to the pony character community.

This stands in stark contrast with the 2010 series, where, even though the show's theme is that the power of friendship triumphs all odds, at no point do the characters actually act as one, truly. Each one retains their unique individuality even when they are supposedly sacrificing themselves for their friends. At no point (or hardly any point) in the show do the characters actually act as one, indivisible group (despite how the story pitches it) and rely on each other essentially and entirely to overcome obstacles/hardships together -- even though, ironically, this is the very theme of the show. Instead what we have is one character channeling the will of all individuals in the group -- which is an individualistic (and potentially opportunistic and selfish) interpretation of friendship. The characters are willing to put their egos aside for just a very short time, until the immediate threat is resolved, and then they go back to their very individual lives.

Once again, not saying that either approach is entirely good or bad, just that they are very different approaches in the same franchise/show/demographic over time!

I thought I'd point that out, as it's quite an obvious example of this cultural shift towards stronger individuality worldwide (or at least in western ideals inspired cultures), and losing that old community spirit, and therefore very much related to the topic in question.

 

[The Nameless Pirate]

Another conversation from the same Facebook group:

View attachment 36570

"You're telling me Sateh Sauce DOESN'T have taste?
How about Drop(TM)???"

"So you’re saying that sateh and the sauce are Dutch cuisine?? That’s a whole other thread."

"Yes. Very Dutch. Very, very Dutch.
Even more Dutch than, say, shawarma!

You can find it in every snackbar.
And what could be more Dutch than a snackbar?"

"Sateh Sauce from Dutch Afhaalchinees having taste? Not the bland sugary bastardization supplied by your neighborhood Chinese/Indo place.

What could be more Dutch? Not realizing how lacking in depth the taste of that sugary or salty "food" is and refusing to admit when you're wrong."

"I take it you caught my sarcasm, then?

Calling Sateh Dutch was nutty enough (hehe; see what I did there?).
But Shawarma being Dutch too?
That's complete and utter poppycock!!
"

Italics is me again.
Bold is one of the group admins.

For context, Sateh is peanut sauce from Indonesia.
It's basically been 'culturally apropriated' here.
Very common in every cafeteria and "Chinese" (actually Indonesian) restaurant.
It's considered an 'acquire taste' and many foreigners don't like it.

Drop is liquorice and especially the Dutch kind is often VERY strongly flavoured.
Usually salty.
So... Candy. That is salty!
Again, generally hated by many non-Dutch people.

Shawarma is Turkish.
Also commonly found in regular Dutch cafeterias.

That's the spirit!

I think he meant that you are a kind and understanding person, seeking the balanced truth -- which you really are, at heart.

That's what I also think.

In my experience, "mean" is often a matter of perspective. A lot of neurotypical people think autistic people are being mean when we are sharing something earnestly and actually trying to selflessly help the other person.

To be truly mean, one needs to have a harmful intent. I don't believe the majority of Dutch people have a harmful intent towards one another. I think they are simply more critical and/or more honest when sharing their perspective. But, again, I'm not very familiar with Dutch culture yet.

Yep, you can't be truly mean if you don't intentionally try to harm others.

If you do it unintentionally it's just an accident/misunderstanding.

The stereotype/idea that people living in rural areas are uneducated is a false one in this day and age, where education is readily available to all citizens.

Depends my grandmother never used the internet, same goes for my other grandmother.
Out of my grandparents, only my grandfather uses the internet.

Old people, at least in Greece, don't take advantage of technology; and most people in rural areas are elderly.

People in the country, living in smaller communities, do tend to be more wary of (and/or cold/hostile to) newcomers, but they are generally closer and friendlier towards one another. They have learned to work together, to rely on each other, and, generally speaking, this 'together' mentality is expressed stronger in their culture.

Yep, they are more close to each other, maybe they are more like an extended family.
This is one of the things I like about them.

Though I believe there is also quite a bit of judgement going around, people gossiping about each other etc.
I could be wrong, but that is what I understand.

And...

I'm not saying that either culture and living environment is bad -- both have their positives and negatives -- just that rural culture is quite different to urban culture, and that perhaps that 'meanness' may not be so present, or not in the same way, in Dutch rural culture.

As said, everything has a positive and a negative side.

I apologise in advance for bringing my current special interest (focus) and research into this as well, but if you watch an episode from the original, 1986 animated series of My Little Pony and compare it to an episode in the 2010 Friendship is Magic series, you'll see an enormous, unmistakable cultural shift in general from a focus on community to a focus on the individual. In only 24 years, our culture has shifted dramatically.

In the original series, the individuality of the characters (ponies) is not emphasised at all (this is something the original series is criticised for these days), to the point, in fact, that some characters struggle finding themselves altogether (see "Sweet Stuff and the Treasure Hunt"). The focus instead is on using everyone's resources collectively, as a family/group/community, to overcome hardships/obstacles. All the ponies act as one, even though they do have very different personalities (and interests and skills), if you pay attention. They are more than willing to lay their ego aside for the welfare of the group (the only character who is not willing to do that, in fact -- in the film, Baby Lickety Split -- ends up in trouble with the community and learning their lesson the hard way, through a trialsome adventure). Even the human characters in the series act as an extension to the pony character community.

This stands in stark contrast with the 2010 series, where, even though the show's theme is that the power of friendship triumphs all odds, at no point do the characters actually act as one, truly. Each one retains their unique individuality even when they are supposedly sacrificing themselves for their friends. At no point (or hardly any point) in the show do the characters actually act as one, indivisible group (despite how the story pitches it) and rely on each other essentially and entirely to overcome obstacles/hardships together -- even though, ironically, this is the very theme of the show. Instead what we have is one character channeling the will of all individuals in the group -- which is an individualistic (and potentially opportunistic and selfish) interpretation of friendship. The characters are willing to put their egos aside for just a very short time, until the immediate threat is resolved, and then they go back to their very individual lives.

Once again, not saying that either approach is entirely good or bad, just that they are very different approaches in the same franchise/show/demographic over time!

I thought I'd point that out, as it's quite an obvious example of this cultural shift towards stronger individuality worldwide (or at least in western ideals inspired cultures), and losing that old community spirit, and therefore very much related to the topic in question.

Interesting, times are changing; and this is apparent on media that want to pass the exact opposite message as well.

It makes sense that this would be world wide phenomenon, after all we live in an era of globalization.

No need to be sorry, pretty interesting if you ask me.

Also sorry for not replying lately, somehow these whole corona businesses has made me a bit more busy lately.

 

[Cerez]

Old people, at least in Greece, don't take advantage of technology; and most people in rural areas are elderly.

This may still be true for Europe (my childhood memories speak similarly), not so much in the west -- where a lot of middle-age and young people escape from city life to the country. About the elderly not using the Internet and new technologies, that's generally untrue here as well. Libraries and community places host a range of activities that teach the elderly how to use modern technology through learning and play, so they are quite accustomed to using modern technology.

They're both considered outdated stereotypes here, in Australia. So this may be a cultural difference between European countries and in Australia and the US.

Though I believe there is also quite a bit of judgement going around, people gossiping about each other etc.
I could be wrong, but that is what I understand.

Yep, that's why I said that neither culture/approach is perfect -- both come with good and bad. Because people depend more on one another in rural areas, because they are generally closer, they are also a lot more observant of one another, and the unkind (and the power-hungry) have a tendency to gossip.

It really depends on what kind of culture that small community has... well... cultured. What their moral values are.

Also sorry for not replying lately, somehow these whole corona businesses has made me a bit more busy lately.

That's okay, I understand. It's making me more worried/anxious as well -- which is not a good thing... Thanks so much for replying! It means a lot to me.

I'm glad it's been insightful/inspiring, and you're quite right, it is global culture, now, and whatever the west now has is sooner or later bound to reach Europe as well. (That is unless world-politics change.) It's unfortunate, because I believe having cultural diversity in the world, with respect and acceptance, is healthy and important. I really don't like that western culture is dominating everything. A lot of cultural wealth is being irretrievably lost in the process.

There's also another thing I've noticed that is culturally happening, and it is also apparent between the two versions of this TV show: a saturation of stimuli while being engaged in an activity or entertained.

To people who are used to this new trend of over-saturated, hyperactive content, the old series (which is actually more paced in line with nature) is way too slow-paced and boring, and to those who can no longer keep up with loads of new information, the new series is stressful and anxiety-inducing. Overall, the new series induces a rush and addiction that wasn't present in the old series -- which only meant to be imaginative and to entertain.

Over-saturation in entertainment leads to addiction, and withdrawal symptoms (such as anxiety and depression) when one stops consuming -- and rarely anyone speaks of this. Nature has a speed and amount of content that is healthy. Too much and too fast (for an extended time) causes a biological/neurological imbalance as the body is pushed/stressed to keep up, and gets used to an unnatural pace/amount.

 

[Cerez]

By the way, gossip is a negative neurotypical habit -- which is why neurodivergent people generally have trouble relating to and understanding it. It is usually emotionally driven by either fear or malice, and it can be dispelled with wider public awareness/knowledge.

There's actually a great episode, dedicated specifically to this (in this case out of fear of the unknown), in the new MLP series, called "Bridle Gossip":

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5x6dwo

Neurodivergent Twilight stands to reduce fear (and therefore gossip and discrimination) by educating her friends/community, fighting ignorance with knowledge. But it is ultimately the bravery and unconditional love/acceptance of a child that breaks the spell the townsfolk are under.