Gameplay

[Glenn Cook]

yes. possibly write an external program that builds a campaign then writes to a scenerio file that can be used by the game to play out the battles. Similiar to what you have described. manually using boardgame rules.

I don't really understand.
The scenario editor can create new scenarios and edit old ones. Why would you need to hex-edit something that is editable through the interface?

Edit: Do you want to automate it by some external application?
Possibly, this is what you are looking for:
AlexKimov/seadogs-file-formats

 

[Martes]

Ah, I see.
So there is the sc file format description above, and there is an editor by @RPearson (but I don't know if the source code for it still exists, you'll have to ask him).
Thing is as far as I know both of them do not include the data for navigation points that can be very useful for AI movements, and this still has to be researched.

I can post my set of tables for event generation, though, if it is of any help.

Also, what would you think about generating coastlines? Generally it's possible, but I haven't developed a solid system for this yet.

 

[RPearson]

Hi Martes, I have the source code - you do to actually in the editor I posted here - although it is in Python byte code which is 1 step removed from human readable form. Python is an interpreted language although that's probably being a bit blurred now. The Python in the editor I posted here won't run in latest version of Python 2 or 3. I had to re write several parts to get it working in ver 2.7. Still a WIP I'm afraid.

Alex's format data isn't complete in many areas. I offered to share what I have but he is at the moment I believe interested in providing an open source platform for the info he has. As I noted I would like to do something similar at some point. I was and am very interested in his work on the 3d model formats used in AOS2. My efforts to date to get the maya program to use the plugins have not been successful.

I spent a lot of the time I worked on updating the editor last spring going back and reviewing the reverse engineering of the scenario file formats I did back in 2000 to 2002 time frame. Several of the unknowns I had from back in 2002 or so are now known. I also have most of the differences between AOS2 and PB formats.

I can tell you that the AOS2 sc format does include waypoints in the data. IIRC I had a screen in the editor that can plot them out and edit them. But I was never able to discover how to get the program to display and use them in the game play. Several of the scenarios provided with AOS2 include them in the sc files but afaik they are not used by the program in the game play.

So while the game allows you to set waypoints in run time I never got it to use the waypoint data that is contained in the sc files.

Coastlines are not difficult to generate. But I ran into some problems reducing resolution of the mesh away from the coast where AOS2 doesn't need it. If and when I can get the maya plugin working - so I can see it in the program - I may start working on it again.

Bob Pearson

 

[Martes]

So while the game allows you to set waypoints in run time I never got it to use the waypoint data that is contained in the sc files.

From my test runs, if you select a ship (for any side) in scenario editor, then left-click (I suppose, it's always very confusing, because it might be right click!) on the entry waypoint, it will follow the route until it encounters an enemy in relatively close proximity. It generally works a little more natural than "go to area X" because the ship feels less obligated to do so.

 

[RPearson]

I'm referring to the waypoints (little buoys with the burgee flag on top) you set out by clicking on the lower left corner of the mini map to set waypoint mode and then left click on the map to create the waypoint. The PB manual talks about waypoints but what it describes is really the method to direct the ship that I discuss at the end of this post. The manual doesn't address use of waypoints in the scenario editor at all. It also does not address setting out a series of waypoints in real time and getting a ship or group to follow them.

I have to be careful because most of my work is with AOS2 and not PB. In AOS2 I'm not sure they work at all. I think part of my confusion with PB was expecting user controlled ship(s) to follow the way points. Since in PB real time battle play you can set up a line of waypoints and then direct the ship to follow them and this method only works with the user controlled ship(s).

The tests I just ran indicate only computer controlled ships will follow the waypoints set up in the PB scenario editor. In the editor as you pointed out the link is to select a ship and then left click on the waypoint to select it. This link has to be written into the sc files so I can look for it and possibly get the AOS2 waypoints working in a similar way.

The other way to direct the course of a ship is to select it and then click on the map to select a point to go to. This only works for user controlled ships and only when in "real time" battle play. The PB manual refers to this method as setting a "waypoint" but it is totally different from the waypoints you can set in the editor.

Bob Pearson

 

[Martes]

Found a way to conduct ASW operations!

It's very simple, actually - the submarines can't be hit with guns, and the enemy submarine model is invisible, but it leaves a wake trace on the water and IS vulnerable to explosions. Meaning another submarine can place a mine on it's path. Or (possibly) you can use explosive boat.

 

[Martes]

Sorted out - more or less - the anti-submarine warfare.

​

The submarine, while having some autonomous capability, best acts as a "towed array". Not as a sensor, of course, there are no detection issues at that technological level, but it can drop mines on a relatively safe distance from the ship.

​

This is how the enemy submarines are seen in action. The model is invisible, but the wake is in place.

​

A towed submarine drops two mines in the path of the approaching enemy ones. They have a set delay of 60 seconds to explode (it's all configurable to some extent, but the changes will affect submarines and explosives on both sides of the scenario).

​

And... boom! The blast damage radius is, more or less, coinciding with it's depiction. One bomb can't, unfortunately, set off another, but both submarines were hit in this case.

Another feature here is that a submarine in tow will replenish it's bomb set from the ship, so the ammo is practically endless, but you have to be careful to keep it intact - it's as vulnerable to explosions as anything else. The ship, unfortunately, can't drop those things by itself.

 

[Martes]

I was really longing to make a regular rowboat as towed object possible using the submarine dll, but even if I manage to split them (to submerging and non-submerging versions), it would be only working for player side, since the invisibility issue is hardcoded somewhere.

 

[Glenn Cook]

I was wondering if anyone who has played AOSII -PB has tried “Ultimate Admiral: Age of Sail”? I know the latter is story driven and has nicer graphics and includes material management, amphibious, and land combat. But how does it sail? There doesn’t appear to be an editor or historic fleet engagements.

 

[Martes]

I tried. It could be good, but, unfortunately, it's not. Maybe something changed since I last looked at it, but I am not that optimistic.

Camera controls and zoom levels are awful, more or less similar to vanilla AOS2. Ship control goes only by waypoints. Tacking is the same as in AOS2 (which is better than many other games!) and there are some sail animations. Same three sail states (lowered/battle/full). You can lower boats, but can't take enemy ships by boats. Can't tow boats. Can't be towed by boats. Ship management (with officer ranks etc) is very clumsy, requiring an enormous amount of clicking through to get to action, and there is no normal scenario editor - you can choose ships for skirmish but not position them. Graphics are nicer (Naval Action models inside, but there are very irritating details, like spritsails), and land combat is fun (even with scale of ships and land units being different), but it all leaves a taste of a missed opportunity.

 

[Martes]

I really ought to get back to unity at some point, but there is simply not enough time.

 

[Glenn Cook]

Thanks Martes. After viewing a bunch of UA-AOS videos, I was indeed wondering how the ships were controlled and sailing . Most reviewers didn’t seem interested in the sailing side of the game and seemed to be racing around shooting like madmen even after sustaining damage. It seemed like Naval Action done up as a RTS game. It does look pretty. I do like that they have graphic that shows the effect of ship tilt on gun range. I hope you do find time for your Unity project.

I like to play with the PB scenario editor. I tried the campaign builder that was included in PB and I think I finally got it to work after all these years lol.

 

[Martes]

Ah, yes, and the damage model there is totally arcade, as with all sailing games, unfortunately.

I have seen a number of videos with Hold Fast: Nations at War, and it may look somewhat entertaining in concept, but it's strictly multiplayer. And ships sink there too fast as well, dammit.

There are three things I am constantly forced to choose between - a long list of incomplete models, an attempt to figure out a reliable way to generate PB map meshes (I more or less know how to do them, but I want real heightmaps, and then it becomes complicated), and Unity. Making terrain in Unity seems so much easier, that I think why bother with the old engine, but someone has to write the logic for the ships. Anyway, sometimes, hopefully.

 

[crazytrain]

Evidently, to make a campaign scenario, you must use what the manual calls a place holder for side "A" instead of individual ship units. The manual explains how to do this by going into map view(?) and clicking on a placeholder icon located on the bottom right corner. Can't find the "Map" view, nor can I find said placeholder icon anywhere. When one of the campaign scenarios is opened, you can clearly see these placeholder ships (look like 120 gun ships that are totally gray).

Anyone find these elusive creatures?

EDIT: Found the placeholder icon!

It's on the mini-map, which has both the way-point icon (bottom left) and the placeholder icon (bottom right). The mini-map has to be moved up above the bottom info bar to access those features tho. That is done by right clicking at the top of it and sliding it up.

 

[Glenn Cook]

Glad you found it! The campaign editor does have its quirks and is not easy or intuitive to use . Campaigns can be created by linking scenarios created with the mission editor. I had started a campaign based on Thomas.Cochrane but never actually completed.

However, AOSII: PB also comes with a very good mission editor thats easier to use and great for someone looking for a age of sail RTS sandbox. Using the editor, you can tweak the game’s +100 scenarios, or create your own from scratch. I think there like a 1000 ship stats modeled. I don’t think theres anything out there where you can create your own engagement esp large fleet engagements

It been a while since I played this game, but If you decide to do more let me know and I dig out my notes.

 

[crazytrain]

Thanks for the offer Glen.
Right now I've been seeing what works and what doesn't in the Campaigns. In the Privateers Bounty campaign, I evidently took too many ships to one of the battles (with land) and a ship ended up inside the landmass behind me! That's what initiated opening up the editor, looking for the place holder ship(s).

Also, for some reason the untangle rigging feature in the game is buggy for me. Sometimes it works, sometimes the game crashed to the desktop as soon as the crew was done with the task. So I set the rigging tangling chance to 0 in the entity.ini file. In addition, some of the Campaign scenarios that require catching/boarding are almost unplayable because of the damage the AI does to sails with ball shot, even with the patch. So the shot ini file was modified to make ball shot way less effective against sails which seems to be all the AI uses.

Thanks again,
Ron

 

[Glenn Cook]

….That's what initiated opening up the editor, looking for the place holder ship(s).

My first attempt with the Campaign Editor I tried unsuccessfully to fix a bug in the default campaign. However, I found the “Mission Editor” useful for creating practice and test missions

Also, for some reason the untangle rigging feature in the game is buggy for me. Sometimes it works, sometimes the game crashed to the desktop as soon as the crew was done with the task. So I set the rigging tangling chance to 0 in the entity.ini file.

I’ve heard that before. My experience is unfouling and boarding may be unsuccessful and take a lot longer than expected. There seems to be a element of chance and both are definitely affected by the size and ratings of the crews involved. Its also difficult to know when unfouling and boarding are going on and when there completed. IMHO The player needs a mission to practice these.

I found I could change the time it took to board by changing the crew ratings and size in test missions. In these tests even a tiny 13 rate ship could Grapple a 6 rate ship provided the crew of the larger ship was significantly reduced and slow enough. However, in this case the crew of the smaller ship could board, but was too small for full capture and resulted in only surrender.

I tested Crew “ratings” and size using the Editor and found them to be key factors in the game. This is briefly mentioned in the manual. I found that Crew ratings effect all aspects : sailing, finding direction, tacking, speed, gunnery accuracy, reload time, boarding etc. In most cases poor AI behavior (i.e that seems buggy) can be attributed to poor crew ratings. I think the difficultly settings selected at the beginning of a mission work by changing the crew rating of the opponent.

In addition, some of the Campaign scenarios that require catching/boarding are almost unplayable because of the damage the AI does to sails with ball shot, even with the patch. So the shot ini file was modified to make ball shot way less effective against sails which seems to be all the AI uses.

yes the AI only uses ball shot. It doesn’t initiate boarding either.

 

[crazytrain]

That's good to know about the crew ratings and it's effect. I haven't decided if the AI can switch between targeting sails/hull, or that the lower crew ratings mean they miss the hull and hit the sails instead. After setting the shot.ini back to normal, the AI is just brutal when it comes to sail destruction.

 

[Glenn Cook]

I enjoy testing in-game, so I tested the amount of hull damage caused by Elite vs Average rating crews. To test this I used the editor. I put two identical Britannia model ships side to side. One of these with an Elite the other Average crew rating. I removed the mast from each model so all damages would be directed at the hulls. Each start the test with their cannon fully loaded.

When the scenario starts each will shoot simultaneously and the damage to hull compared. RESULT: Elite caused more damage to hull then the Average crew did with this first shot. The Elite crew also reloaded faster so the amount of damaged accelerated faster over time.

Of course crew rating less than average are even worse. I haven’t devised a good way to test for sail-only damage. But my guess is that Elite crews will do that better too.

I’ll will start another Mission /camp Editor thread here on this forum over next couple days and post some basic pics on how to use Editor and its possibilities and as way to share ideas on how to use editor better.