WIP Have ingredients and money, but can't get apothecary treatement

[LarryHookins]

Seven years ago when good swords were worth more than a ship, and shipyards still paid good prices for captured ships, many people complained that the player had too much money. Some complained bitterly and some went so far as to suggest that there should be a cap on how much money a player could have at one time.

My feeling at the time was that the player should be allowed to make as much money as possible, but given something to spend it on. I raised the costs to increase your hit points at the apothecary, buy amnesty from governors and donate to the church to raise your reputation. These things were intentionally made insanely expensive, for the sole purpose of giving a rich player something to spend money on, and weren't intended for beginning players anyway.

High prices on swords made dungeon crawling a worthwhile enterprise for a new player, but now it's almost trivial to supply your entire crew with a Bosun's Choice. Before, you had to work at it.

I don't have near enough hours playing the new version of the game to suggest balance improvements. These are just random thoughts from the past.

Hook

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Thanks, @LarryHookins! Indeed I remember all of that very well.

@Tingyun had a lot of balancing suggestions and a lot of those are implemented in the "Build 14 Beta 4.1 WIP + ZIP" currently available.
At the moment I have not been able to find the time to look at that myself.
But if you could possibly make a comparison between the latest EXE (from the link in my signature) and the ZIP (should be in the same post),
that would pretty much be THE VERY BEST THING EVER!

This is what I would really want to do myself, but simply have not been able to afford to do for several months already.
But it does really need doing....

The current situation is that the latest WIP EXE was made by me and I'm pretty convinced that is generally OK.
The ZIP though was made by @Levis and @Tingyun and I just honestly don't have much of a clue about its contents.

 

[Levis]

The zip atm has some problems but also a lot of fixes. The problems it still has are identified and I just need to find some time to fix them. After this we can take a look at some of the rebalancing stuff as people are testing with it for a while now and we can see if they need to be changed.
I know @Grey Roger suggested the difficulty modifier which was applied of item bonuses to be changed a bit and I tend to agree with him, so if I have time I want to try to add that in the next zip.

 

[Levis]

@Grey Roger can I ask you to place some of the items at the locations you mentioned and we agreed on?
I will place one of the items in the indian treasure you can find during the apothecary quest too.

Should we do a book and/or list of the items too? If so where shall we hide this? I like the idea of using the library for it.

 

[Killerjoy96]

I haven't yet used the apothecary since I can't remember if it was in last time I played and I just reinstalled the game. However here are my thoughts about what I see in this thread.

So most seem to agree a procentual increase is the way to go, but the way I see how it would be implemented is that instead of diminishing returns at higher levels the worst time to upgrade it would be to do it early on. This seems weird, a strong bonus or boost should be in my opinion way more beneficial early game or at least equally effective as late game.

I don't know how health is getting calculated by each level but is it possible to make certain the procentual increase stays the same if you level up? Like if you have 100 HP then you get 10 HP extra, but if you then reach higher levels and you get 200 HP the additional amount has increased to 20HP without having to find the items again. This could continue up to like maybe a maximum of 5-10 times so you could never become ridicously high in HP.

Also since you would then have linear return maybe increase the cost incrementally, this would make it so that you could make it that earlier on in the game you could get it done but it would take a big portion of your cash. However if you are a higher level and made a lot more money then the first upgrade would be very cheap but because of an increase in costs the next upgrades would be more expensive. Like the first upgrade would cost like 10.000 cash and the next one could cost 20.000 or 25.000, next one would cost 40.000 or 50.000 or something like that and so on.

This would take away the fact that the boosts would be too big for the costs or too small for the costs. It would require however a bit more complex coding I suppose.

 

[Levis]

I haven't yet used the apothecary since I can't remember if it was in last time I played and I just reinstalled the game. However here are my thoughts about what I see in this thread.

So most seem to agree a procentual increase is the way to go, but the way I see how it would be implemented is that instead of diminishing returns at higher levels the worst time to upgrade it would be to do it early on. This seems weird, a strong bonus or boost should be in my opinion way more beneficial early game or at least equally effective as late game.

I don't know how health is getting calculated by each level but is it possible to make certain the procentual increase stays the same if you level up? Like if you have 100 HP then you get 10 HP extra, but if you then reach higher levels and you get 200 HP the additional amount has increased to 20HP without having to find the items again. This could continue up to like maybe a maximum of 5-10 times so you could never become ridicously high in HP.

Also since you would then have linear return maybe increase the cost incrementally, this would make it so that you could make it that earlier on in the game you could get it done but it would take a big portion of your cash. However if you are a higher level and made a lot more money then the first upgrade would be very cheap but because of an increase in costs the next upgrades would be more expensive. Like the first upgrade would cost like 10.000 cash and the next one could cost 20.000 or 25.000, next one would cost 40.000 or 50.000 or something like that and so on.

This would take away the fact that the boosts would be too big for the costs or too small for the costs. It would require however a bit more complex coding I suppose.

Like I said before I'm also working on a way to spend abilitypoints on HP increase, so this would be a way of increasing HP which becomes harder every time. I think the apothecary should be a fixed point to increase your HP, so it's as hard each time (altough it will become a bit easier because in later game you can get the money easier). This would allow the player a choice to see if he wants to train the character more to get the HP increase or spend his time to get the money and items needed.

I don't think it would be good to give a bonus which scales with your level, this could become confusing I think. Besides that it would require me to change the HP system once again to allow for this.

 

[Killerjoy96]

Changing the HP system again sounds like it would be more work than it's worth.
Is there a thread for the HP increase through ability points so I can read some more about how you want to implement that?

 

[Levis]

Changing the HP system again sounds like it would be more work than it's worth.
Is there a thread for the HP increase through ability points so I can read some more about how you want to implement that?

not yet, I mentioned it in this thread.

 

[Killerjoy96]

So just re-read part of the thread, I see above that you were thinking about the apothecary becoming better and better at the procedure so the increases in stats would become bigger?
Sounds more logical to me than percentual increases. About the HP through ability poitns however I read that you want to have it like 1 point = +10 HP and then the next upgrade 2 points = +10HP.

So it would just flat stack up to it with 10HP every time. This sounds like a bad option to get some more HP, it could help out early game but in the end it would be less beneficial then using money, which you say as well. Money is near infinite in nature if you play long enough, ability points aren't so shouldn't they be giving a bigger boost?

 

[Levis]

So just re-read part of the thread, I see above that you were thinking about the apothecary becoming better and better at the procedure so the increases in stats would become bigger?
Sounds more logical to me than percentual increases. About the HP through ability poitns however I read that you want to have it like 1 point = +10 HP and then the next upgrade 2 points = +10HP.

So it would just flat stack up to it with 10HP every time. This sounds like a bad option to get some more HP, it could help out early game but in the end it would be less beneficial then using money, which you say as well. Money is near infinite in nature if you play long enough, ability points aren't so shouldn't they be giving a bigger boost?

every time you level up you will get some more HP already.
if you want to get more HP it shouldn't be to easy. Having more HP could be a huge advantage.
ability points are limited and with each level you gain they are harder to get. But officers at one point will have ability points which just aren't usefull to spend anymore. That's why I sugested adding an repeatable ability to increase the HP of a character by using ability points. The numers I said are just examples, I hope to get feedback to have better numbers.

We were talking about the apothecary giving a percentual boost when you use it. so if you got the boost if you have 100 HP it will for example give you 10 extra HP while if you have 200 HP it will give you 20 extra HP.
many people will find at one point they are gaining a lot of money. especially if you are having some land etc. You can use your money to buy better equipment and upgrade your ships but at one point if you want to conquer the large ships you will find yourself up to enemies which will have a lot of HP. If you want to fight them you should probably use your money to upgrade your HP also or find other ways of beating them (believe there are ).
But this should not come cheap.
There aren't other options to get a permanent HP bonus so if you need the extra HP you would need to invest in it. thats why I suggest it stay somewhat the same so you know what it gives. If you are a low level player and you have problems surviving you ca get a HP bonus early ingame. if you get a boost every X levels, by the time you are really high you will have gained quite some bonnuses already .

 

[Grey Roger]

@Grey Roger can I ask you to place some of the items at the locations you mentioned and we agreed on?
I will place one of the items in the indian treasure you can find during the apothecary quest too.

Apart from minor tweaks, most of my coding time these days is going into my storyline. Also, how do I put an item into a treasure chest?

If we want the items in places which are visited during sidequests and can be visited without being in the associated sidequest then most of the locations described above are unsuitable, due to either being inaccessible except at specific times during their sidequest, or in one case already in use. The only location I can think of which meets all the requirements is the kidnappers' house in St. Pierre.

Should we do a book and/or list of the items too? If so where shall we hide this? I like the idea of using the library for it.

So do I, since it was I who suggested it.

 

[Killerjoy96]

So upgrading via Ability points should possible be done best with Officers. Which makes sense if they get more ability points yet nothing to spend it on seems pointless.
However for the player you would go to the apothecary and use the rare items and money to get the upgrades.

Is that the idea for how it should work?

Also how big can the gap become between NPC and PC in terms of HP?

 

[Levis]

Also, how do I put an item into a treasure chest?

From what I remember you first need a box locator. This is set up in the locator file of the location. If it has a chest which can be openend it will have this locator. You need to see what it is called. Then use something like this:

locations[n].box1.items.cursedcoin = 1;

The "cursedcoin" is the id of the item and the value is how many times the item will be in there.
I'm not sure if this will still have it spawn random items inside the box too. Maybe @Pieter Boelen or @Jack Rackham knows?

 

[Jack Rackham]

If you only want a cursed coin in a chest (box)
first empty the box with spawnItemsCount = 0;
then add the item you want like locations[n].box1.items.cursed_coin = 1;

I use to do this in itemlogic.

 

[Grey Roger]

No, I'd rather have the random items than the apothecary item. If the apothecary item is going in there then I'd want it in addition to the normal random stuff. Presumably this would be the case if I do not have 'spawnItemsCount = 0' in there?

Where should I put the code to add the item - in "PROGRAM\Locations\init\FalaiseDeFleur.c"?

 

[Jack Rackham]

Yes if the location is in there AND there is a box locator there too.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I haven't yet used the apothecary since I can't remember if it was in last time I played and I just reinstalled the game.

I think it was already in Build 13. It's not a new feature.

So most seem to agree a procentual increase is the way to go, but the way I see how it would be implemented is that instead of diminishing returns at higher levels the worst time to upgrade it would be to do it early on. This seems weird, a strong bonus or boost should be in my opinion way more beneficial early game or at least equally effective as late game.

Effectively you could get a small increase in the early game when all little bits differ.
Or you do it in the late game and you get much more. It's a balance hopefully players could find for themselves.
Added gameplay value: You could save up the needed items until a time when you know you're going to be needing the extra HP.
Imagine playing as honest Merchant first, but then intending to turn Pirate for role playing reasons.

If we want the items in places which are visited during sidequests and can be visited without being in the associated sidequest then most of the locations described above are unsuitable, due to either being inaccessible except at specific times during their sidequest, or in one case already in use. The only location I can think of which meets all the requirements is the kidnappers' house in St. Pierre.

Or you could just scatter some around here and there and players are bound to run into some of them sooner or later.

Could even add a random factor in the init files, so the items may or may not be there.
This to avoid a "gotta catch 'em all" situation whenever players start a new game, already knowing where the items will be.

I'm not sure if this will still have it spawn random items inside the box too. Maybe @Pieter Boelen or @Jack Rackham knows?

It works to put the items in there. Only thing to avoid is the items being randomly regenerated, making the original ones disappear.
I think this can happen to pretty much all items in all random boxes.

No, I'd rather have the random items than the apothecary item. If the apothecary item is going in there then I'd want it in addition to the normal random stuff. Presumably this would be the case if I do not have 'spawnItemsCount = 0' in there?

Random question here: Why hardcode these items to show up if they do already show up at random?
Couldn't you just increase their rarity if they don't show up enough?

One thing that springs to mind: Items with a minlevel can stop showing up in the game if the player level is TOO HIGH.
This is something that ideally should still be addressed one day. Two potentially interesting lines from initItems.c:

   refMap.quality = -2;  // PB: If -2, attribute is removed and item should be ALWAYS available
   refMap.rare  = 0.01; // PB: Low value so each trader has only VERY few of them

I'm not sure if that really helps here. But maybe the code could be changed to set minlevel is NEGATIVE 1
to mark certain items to remain equally rare/common throughout the entirety of the game?

 

[Grey Roger]

Random question here: Why hardcode these items to show up if they do already show up at random?
Couldn't you just increase their rarity if they don't show up enough?

The suggestion was made to have them fixed to be available in a few places. I was asked to do it. Personally I'd be quite happy to leave the rarity as it is and leave finding them to random chance.

Especially since the attempt to put "meds1" into the chest in the kidnappers' house in St. Pierre didn't work. It turns out the house isn't in "FalaiseDeFleur.c", it's in "SideQuestLocations.c", so I found the section for "Ransom_house_f1" and added this:

Locations[n].box1.items.meds1 = 1;

It didn't work. I started a new game as a French corsair (the quickest way I can think of to get to Martinique), went to the house, looted the chest, and just got some random stuff. Locator "box1" certainly exists (confirmed by "TOOL" and by enabling visible locators) and it's certainly the right place (the reload map for "Ransom_house_f1" has exits to "Falaise_de_fleur_location_03" and "Ransom_house_f2", being outdoors and upstairs respectively).

Can we make the items sellable? Partly for the benefit of anyone who can't figure out what to do with them, but mainly for the benefit of anyone who does know what to do with them and doesn't think the price versus HP gain is a worthwhile trade.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I NOTICE NOBODY CHANGED THEIR VOTES IN THE POLL YET!
If anyone wants things differently now, please make this clear.

Can we make the items sellable?

That is very easy. But them not being sellable is quite deliberate and I'd prefer keeping it that way.

Anyone who cannot figure out what to do with them, but later finds out, may wish they HADN'T sold them.
So the items not being sellable is specifically for their benefit.

As for anyone who thinks the price vs HP gain isn't a worthwhile trade, that is why we are discussing changes now so that it DOES become worthwhile.

What we could do is to unlock the "Toss" button for those four items.
Because you get nothing back for them, players are in no way encouraged to get rid of them.
But it is at least possible.

Alternatively, we could set them up like some other items (price = 2?) so that you cannot get rid of them, but CAN put them in a chest.
Then at least they don't need to clutter up your inventory.

That being said, I don't think the "Health Items" inventory page can get particularly cluttered because there aren't that many different ones.

 

[Marki]

I change my vote a bit Why not try some changes? But I still think it's a feature that loses its attractivity if it gets too common because actually it is not that much fun for itself to push some buttons, spend some ingredients and money and get some hp for it. And if it's something I always HAVE TO DO because the hp bonus is 10% for example and I get 53 turpeths in my game, then it becomes a common step in gameplay like selling goods and this would not be the right role for that feature I think.