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Introducing the USA

Thanks. And minus all French and English colour scheme ships. And INCLUDING the US colour scheme ships of which we already have some.
 
Well, I'd include <i>some</i> of the ships painted in British and French colors, as there were no restrictions on civilian vessels. But they'd be the unrated craft. I'd try to keep anything that's a brig or larger painted in the American black and white scheme in addition to the few USN unrated ships like the topsail schooner and such.

But if you want to exclude the British and French warships for identification purposes, then go ahead. I understand that it could get confusing to some. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":yes" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />

I don't know how clear these images are... sort of small and details may be hard to make out... but I think these are pretty good visual guides to US Naval uniforms. I think that having all of these may be too much, as we'd have to toggle them to phase in and out during the game... and the ones with bicorns, tailcoats, and trousers may be hard to make... so look at these and take your pick.

Uniforms of the Continental Navy (1775-1781)
<img src="http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/_Commodore_John_Paul_Jones/Ranks_of_the_Continental_Navy_1775.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The uniforms are as follows: Midshipman, Lieutenant, Captain, JPJ's version of captain, Enlisted Marine, Marine Officer. There were no full or undress versions, as Congress didn't want gold trim on their uniforms. (But JPJ made his own personal uniforms anyway, so I threw his version in just in case you want to add it anyway.)

The 1777 Uniforms
<img src="http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/_Commodore_John_Paul_Jones/Ranks_of_the_Continental_Navy_1779.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
In 1777, a handfull of Continental Navy officers went before Congress, asking that they change the uniforms to the patterns seen here. John Paul Jones was one of the officers in this group, and because he voiced the strongest opinion and believed in asymmetrical warfare, it is assumed that he designed the uniforms himself. Congress refused the idea, saying that they looked too close to British uniforms and that they had too much gold. Jones made his own uniform anyway and wore it against Congress' orders. The JPJ version of captain is what many believe he was wearing during the battle between the <i>Bonhomme Richard</i> and the <i>Serphis</i> on September 23rd, 1779.

From 1781 to 1794 the United States had no Navy.

Uniforms of the United States Navy (1794-1802)
<img src="http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/_Commodore_John_Paul_Jones/Ranks_of_the_United_States_Navy_179.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
It can be seen that Congress still designed uniforms with the intent of not using gold trim, as to not give any officer the appearance of holding too much power and to not look like the British. They finally accepted the use of epaulettes to denote rank.

Uniforms of the United States Navy (1802-1814)
<img src="http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/_Commodore_John_Paul_Jones/Ranks_of_the_United_States_Navy_180.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
In 1802, Congress finally gave in and added gold trim to the Navy's uniforms. We also see a change in the color of the facing from buff to blue and a change in the general cut of the uniform. The switch from athwartships bicorns to fore-n-aft bicorns was finally made.

Uniforms of the United States Navy (1814-1820)
<img src="http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/_Commodore_John_Paul_Jones/Ranks_of_the_United_States_Navy_181.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
By the War of 1812, many Naval officers had already adopted this style of dress, altering their own uniforms to keep up with the newest styles used by England and France. However, Congress did not officially make the change until 1814. Also note the a new rank was added to the Navy: Commander. Until this point, the equivlent of a Commander in a European Navy was a Lieutenant given a command of his own. A Lieutenant (Commanding) wore his single epaulet on the right shoulder, whereas Lieutenants serving as executive officers wore their on the left. While Commander was officially added to the ranks, Lieutenants in Command were still seen in the Navy, eventually becomeing the rank of Lieutenant-Commander.
 
<!--quoteo(post=269934:date=Jul 22 2008, 05:32 PM:name=Commodore John Paul Jones)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Commodore John Paul Jones @ Jul 22 2008, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=269934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But if you want to exclude the British and French warships for identification purposes, then go ahead. I understand that it could get confusing to some. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":yes" border="0" alt="yes.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I would indeed prefer that. At least until we've confirmed that mod really DOES work. Once we confirmed that, we might change some thing to be more historically correct. But as far as gameplay is concerned, we might even keep things as clear as possible, if not as realistic. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
 
Some more good news. I have now reset the toggle on the USA so that they only appear in the last two periods and this time it WORKS. Seems the flag-problem has to do with something Pirate_KK changed in nations.c. I am now trying to find out exactly which change that is.

Also I have updated the ships_init.c file so that the three US ships (Colonial Fast Schooner, Colonial Brig 'o War and Heavy Frigate) are now US-only and all other one-nation ships are now non-US as well.
 
Thanks for those looks of the uniforms, John Paul Jones! I'm curious which ones we'll end up having.
Personally I object to the idea of just one epaulet. I think it looks stupid; it should be two or none. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

More good news. I have now used all KK's recent code, except for the part that caused the raising of another flag to not work. I then expanded the "older" code to include the USA and I can now even raise a US flag and have the relations appear correctly. In other words, as far as I can tell, the USA work pretty well now! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/w00t.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":woot" border="0" alt="w00t.gif" />

The only real problem I still have with the USA are that the relations of the town soldiers and the fantoms in the towns don't seem to be linked. The soldiers don't protect the fantoms.
Edit: I found I had forgot to actual change the town's ai group setting to "AMERICA_", but even doing so doesn't seem to solve the problem. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/piratesing.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shock" border="0" alt="piratesing.gif" />

Also we still have some missing textures:
- Worldmap animated flag
- Soldier portrait file

Thomas said he'll be working on those. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/doff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":doff" border="0" alt="doff.gif" />
 
We've got the soldier portrait now, but not the worldmap animated flag. Would anybody be willing to make that one?
BTW: Can anyone confirm if the character relations are correct now and the soldier do defend the random characters?
 
I just had a thought.
What if we established the "Thirteen Colonies" as a playable nation in the Colonial Powers era? They would be allies with Britain during this time and simulate their use by the British during the Seven Years/French&Indian War. Ultimately, the Colonials would build their sense of identity and eventually want rights as British citizens... which ultimately becomes their declaration of independence as the United States.
For a flag I'd suggest the <a href="http://www.flagetiquette.us/images/Grand_Union_Flag.png" target="_blank">Grand Union Flag</a>. (It is different from the HEITC flag, as the Union Jack is more of a square here whereas the Company's was more of a rectangle.)

And I like Pieter's suggestion for the USA flags during the Revolutions period. I'd use it for forts and civilians. For the Continental Navy, I have two suggestions - the <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f9/Serapis_Flag.svg/800px-Serapis_Flag.svg.png" target="_blank">Serapis Flag</a> (its unique and would stand out) or the <a href="http://bentpage.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/800px-naval_jack_of_the_united_statessvg.png" target="_blank">Don't Tread on Me Flag</a> (which currently serves as the USN's jack). The DToM flag was the first official flag used by the American Navy, notably during Commodore Hopkins attack on Nassau.

As for American pennants, there were no true regulations during the Revolutionary period and during the Colonial period an American Navy didn't exist, so you could either leave American ships without pennants or simply place smaller versions of the ensign on the masts.
During the Napoleonic period, US Navy ships flew <a href="http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeohzt4/Seaflags/ensign/uscompt.GIF" target="_blank">Commissioning Penants</a> on their mainmasts. When in port the ship also flew a <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/US_Naval_Jack.svg/800px-US_Naval_Jack.svg.png" target="_blank">US Navy Jack</a> from the bowsprit. If the ship was a flagship, then the <a href="http://tmg110.tripod.com/us-12comm.gif" target="_blank">Commodore's Pennant</a> would be flown in place of the Commissioning Pennant.
Civilian ships didn't have any regulations on pennants (as far as I know... don't take my word for it). However, here's something I found that could be used for non-military American ships: <a href="http://www.uscg.mil/history/gifs/1799NarrowPennant.jpg" target="_blank">US Revenue Marine Service Pennant</a> (the US Revenue Marine Service eventually became the US Coast Guard).

Here are some other flags to look at:
<a href="http://www.uscg.mil/history/gifs/1815WartimeVariantEnsign.jpg" target="_blank">US Revenue Marine Service Ensign</a>
<a href="http://sleevage.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/500px-gadsden_flag.gif" target="_blank">Gadsden Flag</a>
<a href="http://www.vssr.org/images/flags/Brigantine.jpg" target="_blank">USS Lexington Flag</a>
<a href="http://www.westol.com/~beaurega/13starse.gif" target="_blank">USS Ranger Flag</a> (first US flag to be acknowledged by a foreign power)
<a href="http://www.westol.com/~beaurega/serapis_8points.gif" target="_blank">Serapis Pennant</a> (John Paul Jones was far beyond his time - he even designed pennants and jacks for his ships while the rest of the Continental Navy stumbled about. This could be used for military ships in the Revolution era.)
 
Mmm, not a bad idea: Thirteen Colonies.

Thank you for the flag information, it's very usefull <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />
 
At the moment we have the USA in the Revolutions and The Corsican period.
My personal intention would be to have the USA hostile to the English in Revolutions and friendly in The Corsican.
We could also make the USA appear one period earlier, though, again friendly to Britain.
However, that's also the period that the Jack Sparrow quest takes place in, so we'd have to consider if we do/don't want the USA in that.

That grand union flag looks rather too similar to a regular British flag; there might be a small difference, but nothing a regular player will pick up. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
I do like that Serapis Flag; would be nice to see that one on navy ships. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":yes" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />
 
<!--quoteo(post=326495:date=Jun 8 2009, 03:40 PM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ Jun 8 2009, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We could also make the USA appear one period earlier, though, again friendly to Britain.
However, that's also the period that the Jack Sparrow quest takes place in, so we'd have to consider if we do/don't want the USA in that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->We could split that period (<i>Colonial Powers</i> 1740 - 1769) into two; in the first one Jack Sparrow storyline would take place and in the second there would be proto-USA.

Alternatively, we could add possibility of disabling appearance of USA in case of JS quest.

pirate_kk
 
First we'd have to decide if we don't want the USA in there. I'd prefer no additional period; 6 should be enough. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />
 
<!--quoteo(post=326495:date=Jun 8 2009, 09:40 AM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ Jun 8 2009, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My personal intention would be to have the USA hostile to the English in Revolutions and friendly in The Corsican.
We could also make the USA appear one period earlier, though, again friendly to Britain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Colonial Powers - Thirteen Colonies are allies with Britain and reflect Britain's relations with other countries.
Revolutions - United States of America is hostile towards Britain and allies with all other nations. I'd even make them neutral with pirates (the USA relied <i>heavily</i> on privateers).
The Corsican - USA is neutral with all nations. Reflects Washington's efforts to keep America out of international events until she has established herself. Also reflects USA's animosity towards UK (leading to the War of 1812) and the cool demeanor towards France (the Quasi War).

During the Colonial period, if one is playing as a colonist, they may find fellow colonials mixed in on the British-held islands.

During the Revolutionary period, rather than giving the USA an island (I've seen other posts commenting on the inaccuracy of this), one may seek the American representative on a French-held island. You may run into an American on other islands but if you are looking for a letter of marque or want to serve in the Continental Navy, pay a visit to the American ambassador to France... he's sure to be accompanied by ranking naval officers and the like.

During the Corsican period, I'd remove all American figureheads from the islands. You may run into a trader, civilian, or diplomat, but no Naval officers. In order to join the US Navy, you will have to find a naval officer. Perhaps we can work on that idea that allows the players to come across ships at sea and "row across" to visit the other ship's deck... which would allow us to visit US Naval ships operating in the area. We could then speak to the captain and seek a commission.

What say you to all this mates?

A note on American ships - I'd limit ships unique to the USA to The Corsican period, as in the Colonial period they were British (American players can only buy British... non-military) and during the Revolution we were scrounging for whatever we could get our hands on. Perhaps a script could be put in place that would cap the highest class of ship an American could buy? (I'd cap it at frigate, mostly civilian. The few military ships we could buy would be non-rated vessels.)
Once we reach the Napoleonic period, the USA will be building its own ships, so vessels like the Colonial Schooner, Brig or <i>Constitution</i> would become available. If this hasn't been done so already, I'd make the chances of seeing the <i>Constitution</i> VERY rare. There were only six of those super-frigates. I'd also make any USA ship over 44 guns VERY VERY rare. We had ships-of-the-line... but only a handful and they never saw action.
 
So as a summary:

<b>Colonial Powers:</b>
- Add Thirteen Colonies nation that reflects England in all ways apart from nation name
My comment: what's the added gameplay value of that...? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

<b>Revolutions:</b>
- USA hostile with English, friendly with other nations, neutral with pirates
- No island for USA; no special USA ship skins at sea
My comment: can be done. Too bad about no USA island and ships though. Almost defeats the purpose of having those added at all. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />

<b>The Corsican:</b>
- USA neutral to all nations (including or excluding pirates?)
- Make all large ships in the US fleet VERY rare, especially the USS Constitution (note that some of the USS-only ship models have their name written on their stern)

I'm sorry if I sound a bit skeptical on all this, but I have always been skeptical on the added gameplay value of adding more nations.
Your suggests would also make the USA weaker than any of the other nations, though this wouldn't matter even in the slightest since there's no "balance of power" mod in the game at all.

There needs to be added some actual gameplay value to the different nations and a "balance of power" mod which is based on historical data, but that you can influence yourself.
There should then also be some governor quests or LoM/navy code to make supporting a nation actually worthwhile and interesting, gameplay-wise.

Erwin Lindemann was working on a "Hail Ship" mod and was apparently making good progress on that, but we haven't heard from him in a while. (AGH! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/piratesing.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shock" border="0" alt="piratesing.gif" /> )
Captain 'Dan the Lunatic Wolf' was working on a "joining the British navy" mod that sounded interesting, but we haven't heard from him in a while either.
If both of those would happen at some point, that offers a lot of new options for national gameplay. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />
 
Good idea. I really hate so see Eleuthera as an American Island. And this way, we do have Americans involved in a balanced and accurate way!
 
I like the USA having an island at some point. And I recall finding the Eleuthera historically was one of the earliest US settlements in the Caribbean.
Or something like that anyway. That's why we originally decided to make the third new island into Eleuthera in the first place. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />

Anyway, the whole "nations without islands" thing needs some further thought. And work.
For now I'd prefer to keep things simple by just giving each nation at least one town. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
 
<!--quoteo(post=326740:date=Jun 9 2009, 03:31 AM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pieter Boelen @ Jun 9 2009, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Colonial Powers:</b>
- Add Thirteen Colonies nation that reflects England in all ways apart from nation name
My comment: what's the added gameplay value of that...? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playing as a colonial gives the player a sense of identity and exposes them to the mistreatment from Britain. Being a colonial in this period could also open a door for some good privateering.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Revolutions:</b>
- USA hostile with English, friendly with other nations, neutral with pirates
- No island for USA; no special USA ship skins at sea
My comment: can be done. Too bad about no USA island and ships though. Almost defeats the purpose of having those added at all. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having this done stresses just how absurd the odds against the rebellious Americans were. It also challenges the player. <i>You</i> have to forge a nation and its navy. Everything that came out of the Revolution was made from scratch. When the player sees the official US Navy later in the Napoleonic period, it should give them a bit of pride, knowing how it all started.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>The Corsican:</b>
- USA neutral to all nations (including or excluding pirates?)
- Make all large ships in the US fleet VERY rare, especially the USS Constitution (note that some of the USS-only ship models have their name written on their stern)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good catch! The USA should be hostile towards the pirates during this period (the Barbary Wars... the very reason for which the US Navy was founded!)

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your suggests would also make the USA weaker than any of the other nations, though this wouldn't matter even in the slightest since there's no "balance of power" mod in the game at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playing as an American will be a challenge... because the reality of history is that we were the weaklings on the world stage.



I am thinking of writing an outline for an American quest to showcase this addition and give the nation reason for being in the game.
Firstly, we have two options. There are two Royal Navy quests presently... and I think one of them could be replaced. (unless we have multiple quests for a single era?)

The Birth of a Nation - set during the Revolutionary period.
The Birth of a Navy - set during the Napoleonic period.
 
Actually, there's just one British royal navy quest; the Master and Commander quest is present, but there is no quest <i>at all</i>.
And nobody working on it either. I just added it for testing purposes. Anyway, no replacements are required, since each storyline can be added without replacing anything.
Indeed multiple quests for a sinle period is very much possible. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":yes" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />

Forging a nation and navy sounds interesting for sure, but if something like that were to be added, I'd like it to be added for ALL nations.
Of course we have two options for this whole thing:
1 - Make the birth of the USA a storyline you can play: certainly would be a good idea and would only require the quest to be written
2 - Make the birth of the USA something that is a part of a to-be-made "balance of powers" mod

Of course I'd prefer option #2, but I'll admit that one is a LOT less realistic. But it COULD offer infinitely more gameplay value.
Anyway, if we just go for option #1, I'd suggest there being one period where the USA are present without an island (Colonial Powers/Revolutions)
and the quest would involve building up the strength of the USA and eventually settling on Eleuthera, etc.

"Building up the strength" would have to be simulated through dialogs though, because the various nations,
even if they DO have an advantage over the other ingame through number of towns or ships used,
it really doesn't matter because nothing happens with the balance of power at all.
It'll just appear historically correct without having any gameplay value outside of the USA quest. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shrug" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" />

With the Period mod being added into the game, I wonder if we could/should be thinking of such a "balance of power" modification.
We do have a mod that changed the relations between the various nations at random. What if we could add some historical realism into this instead?
Rather than the nation relation changes being random, they'd be scripted based on actual historical events.

Continuing my daydreaming, it would be better still if the nation relation changes would be based on the "nations' strength" and the player would be able to influence that.
Either by sinking/capturing ships and towns of one nation to decrease their power or by trying to forge an alliance (through dialog/quests).
But of course that may all be going a bit too far since we've got nobody to work on all that, really.
It might be a nice idea for some point in the future, but for now just the "Birth of the USA" storyline would be a better option, I presume.

But it seems it's time again for my usual question: who is going to make the USA national main quest?
We've got Bartolomeu working on the Assassin quest, Short Jack Gold working on Hornblower and Captain Maggee working on Jack Sparrow.
Then we already have the unfinished Devlin quests as well that nobody is working on anymore.
If you do have the time, we'd certainly be willing to support you in making this quest.
With so "many" questwriters at the moment, you'll be certain to get all the help you need if you get stuck. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":yes" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />
 
I am tentative to give this a go:
1st: I have basic knowledge about quest writing/dialogs.
2nd: The entire team has sooooo much work on right now and this seems an even bigger load.
3rd: It might require more coding due to events such as the introduction of a new naval ship/ colony capturing/ nation wars..ect.
 
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