Included in Build Naval/Privateer Promotion Steps

[Pieter Boelen]

"PO_Trinity" is valid for periods 2 and 3, which are "Golden Age" and "Colonial Powers". I assumed "PO" meant "Portugal". And that's why a Portuguese Contra-Almirante (rank 9) will get a "PO_Trinity" during those periods. If you want to reserve a ship for personal use, don't put a national registration code in its name.

You misunderstand me; I do want her to be used like that!
Because right now it is a completely unused ship, not even used in any quests, only available at Vanderdecken.
So giving her an actual purpose is much more better.

One thing I just remembered is that the idea of the steam frigates was that Napoleon experimented with them so the FR_SteamFrigate is "supposedly the first".
So if she fits anywhere into the French promotion rewards, that might fit in nicely with Snow White Sorrow's original thoughts about the steam ships.

 

[Grey Roger]

My point was, if Noriruru had wanted to keep that version of "Trinity" as a personal ship, he shouldn't have put "PO" in its name. Likewise, you'll probably be pleased to see that your "NL_Amsterdam" is used for the Dutch promotions because, having a "NL" prefix, it attracted my attention when I was looking for interesting ships to use there.

Have you any reference for those Napoleonic steam vessels? At the moment the only references I have are Wikipedia articles which list that American self-propelled gun battery as the first steam-powered warship; another one about steamboats which date back to the 18th century but which are too small to be of interest to us as they were limited to lakes and rivers; and steamships, being large enough to go to sea, the first such being the Experiment which steamed from Leeds to Yarmouth in 1813. So if anyone wants to design a steam lugger, that can perhaps be included somewhere.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

My point was, if Noriruru had wanted to keep that version of "Trinity" as a personal ship, he shouldn't have put "PO" in its name.

That was me who did that. He just made a bunch of skins and Armada and me tried to fit them into the national variants.

Likewise, you'll probably be pleased to see that your "NL_Amsterdam" is used for the Dutch promotions because, having a "NL" prefix, it attracted my attention when I was looking for interesting ships to use there.

The Amsterdam is an actual historical ship; technically a merchant vessel.
I just happen to like the real one, because the replica used to be moored on the other side of town, so that's why she's in my signature and also "my" ship in the game.
Plus the model was done for me as well. But I claim no ownership. She is also not a quest-only ship and can be randomly encountered during the game.

Have you any reference for those Napoleonic steam vessels? At the moment the only references I have are Wikipedia articles which list that American self-propelled gun battery as the first steam-powered warship; another one about steamboats which date back to the 18th century but which are too small to be of interest to us as they were limited to lakes and rivers; and steamships, being large enough to go to sea, the first such being the Experiment which steamed from Leeds to Yarmouth in 1813. So if anyone wants to design a steam lugger, that can perhaps be included somewhere.

This is the original thread about them: http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/baltimore-steam-propulsion-laboratory.15276/
Also have a look in the "Documentation\Ship Recognition Guide.pdf" to get an idea of the intent behind those ships.

The main point though is that exact historical accuracy wasn't the main concern here.
It is more about gameplay and variety than anything else.

We could also extend the last time period to last longer so that they might have existed by the end.
Or perhaps make a 7th period? "The Age of Steam"? Where they become quite common?
Of course with only one steam-propelled ship, that seems a bit overkill.

 

[Grey Roger]

The main point though is that exact historical accuracy wasn't the main concern here.
It is more about gameplay and variety than anything else.

We could also extend the last time period to last longer so that they might have existed by the end.
Or perhaps make a 7th period? "The Age of Steam"? Where they become quite common?
Of course with only one steam-propelled ship, that seems a bit overkill.

Oh well, if we're interested in variety rather than accuracy, can we have a submarine? (Actually, we do, sort of. Pirate naval officers get it at rank 10. Anyone else gets it from Vanderdecken. )

Actually, that would be interesting if we're going to allow future ships anyway. How about Jules Verne's Nautilus? It has about as much right to be in PoTC as a steam frigate... As well as the submerging rules similar to the Flying Dutchman, it would need a bit of work on the collision code as its only weapon was ramming.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

A Nautilus should really not be randomly encounterable! Though I have no objections to it being added as Vanderdecken or quest ship.
Might be possible to give her extra-strong hit damage and have her take no/little damage from that herself.

But the undersea world in the game is pretty bad with all the blackness there, so that feature is never going to truly work well.
Plus it would require someone to make the model. Though perhaps one can be "borrowed" from Virtual Sailor, which had a nice Disney Nautilus model.

Oh well, if we're interested in variety rather than accuracy, can we have a submarine?

As far as I'm concerned, I like historical accuracy whenever it can add to the game.
It can provide extra atmosphere or extra variety because of the various periods we've got.
But when there is a debate between historical accuracy and gameplay, I see no reason why gameplay should not win.

Also on the periods, the main thing I want is for each period to be as different as possible from any of the others.
It doesn't get more different than having engines as propulsion instead of sails,
so the steam frigates could be a great way of making the final period clearly very different from the ones that came before.
But only if we make the best possible use of them.

Point is that the steam frigates are something we've already got and that functionally works well.
They're also not fantasy ships nor one-of-a-kind. Admittedly their appearance is historically wrong by several years, but we might as well make the best possible use of them, no?
Seems rather a shame almost to hide functionality so that players who might enjoy it hardly notice it is there.
Plus it would be a waste of the time and effort spent on getting it to work right.

There is also the "Rule of Cool" to consider.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Here's a thought: Set up an American naval officer starting option who is guaranteed to get a steam frigate upon promotion.
Then we can make mention of it in his character description and players will know about it in advance.

Every American Napoleonic Post Captain will still get the Constitution because there is a GiveShip2Character line after the random switch.

Am now merging your work with my own game version; looking good!
Worth noting that a lot of the English Revolutions ships were specifically intended for Nelson and the Napoleonic ones for Jack Aubrey,
but I'm not sure if that still applies now that you've changed some of them.
Also, I think the Bounty is a specific merchant ship so I'm not sure how that one would work in the navy.

What is the "Kasteel van Medemblik" doing in the Spanish navy, by the way?

The Portuguese have got some EPIC ship names! Those are never going to fit on the screen, are they?

 

[Grey Roger]

Here's a thought: Set up an American naval officer starting option who is guaranteed to get a steam frigate upon promotion.
Then we can make mention of it in his character description and players will know about it in advance.

That could work.

Every American Napoleonic Post Captain will still get the Constitution because there is a GiveShip2Character line after the random switch.

This should take care of that. Thanks for spotting it!

Worth noting that a lot of the English Revolutions ships were specifically intended for Nelson and the Napoleonic ones for Jack Aubrey,
but I'm not sure if that still applies now that you've changed some of them.
Also, I think the Bounty is a specific merchant ship so I'm not sure how that one would work in the navy.

HMS Bounty was originally a merchant ship but was purchased and used by the Royal Navy. It's a historical ship, so I'm using it. I wonder who's going to be first to fail to look after the crew properly and have a mutiny...

What is the "Kasteel van Medemblik" doing in the Spanish navy, by the way?

This. OK, it's technically a privateer, but it appears in threedecks.org under Spanish ships as something of about the right size and firepower, so I used it. I suppose Lion de Oro would do as well.

The Portuguese have got some EPIC ship names! Those are never going to fit on the screen, are they?

They do, just about. Worst case, they spill over the box where the ship's name is supposed to fit in the "Ship" section of the F2 screens. I tried renaming my ship to something ridiculously long to see what would happen before I put those names into the file; those names ought to just about fit. The best one is probably on the lugger assigned to rank 1 in "Early Explorers", which you're never going to get as a promotion ship anyway, so I had no qualms about arranging for it to have a name which is longer than the ship.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

See attached for some thoughts of mine. Feel free to make whatever use of it that you think appropriate.

That could work.

Any thought for an appropriate character? Would John Paul Jones work?

This. OK, it's technically a privateer, but it appears in threedecks.org under Spanish ships as something of about the right size and firepower, so I used it. I suppose Lion de Oro would do as well.

A Spanish name does indeed look a bit less peculiar.

 

[Grey Roger]

Any thought for an appropriate character? Would John Paul Jones work?

No, partly because he was a historical character and unsuitable for a non-historical steam frigate, and partly because he died in 1792. He has no business commanding anything in the "Napoleonic" period. I'd suggest making up a completely fictitious character to assign to the steam frigate.

As for your changes:
Compacting the code which gives Hornblower the Caroline is harmless enough. Though I rather like short lines of code which I can read without having to enable wordwrap.

6th rate frigate Andromeda is to be renamed Vanguard. In reality the Andromeda was a 6th rate frigate of that time.

I'll concede Blanche instead of Vanguard for the Aurora class frigate of that time, though. Blanche really was a 5th rate frigate. Vanguard was a 3rd rate ship of the line.

I'm not sure why you want to rename Success to Lively, but both were fifth rate frigates around in Napoleonic times, so if it's that important to you, go ahead.

You're replacing "HMS_Surprise" Amazon with "RN_Surprise" of the same name. Since "RN_Surprise" is already used, I intentionally used "HMS_Surprise" to give greater variety. But one is in "Revolutions" and the other is in "Napoleonic" so the player isn't going to get both anyway.

You're renaming Endymion as Hinchinbrook. Endymion really was an Endymion class frigate, hardly surprising, with quite an active career. Hinchinbrook was a 6th rate frigate.

You've renamed Shannon to Albemarle in "Revolutions" and Franklin in "Napoleonic". Shannon was a famous frigate which served during both periods. Albemarle was another 6th rate. I can't find any reference to any British ship named Franklin, though there was a big American ship of that name, so that's where I used it. Franklin makes even less sense in British service than Kasteel van Medemblik does in Spanish.

You've renamed Princess Royal to Suffolk. threedecks.org lists Suffolk as a 3rd rate ship of the line in "Napoleonic" period and Princess Royal as a 100 gun 1st rate. This is supposed to be the name of a 1st rate.

You've renamed Queen Charlotte to Theseus. I don't care what Theseus was, Queen Charlotte was the second lead ship in the battle of Trafalgar, so if you're getting Victory at rank 9 then your companion is getting Queen Charlotte at rank 10.

And you've renamed Barfleur to Pomone. Barfleur was originally a 90 gun 2nd rate ship of the line later upgraded to 98 guns, and had quite a distinguished career. Pomone wasn't any sort of ship of the line, it was a frigate.

Some of the names are probably an attempt to give Nelson the correct names, though as you can see, there's little point because he won't be getting the ships to go with those names. He didn't go through the same sequence of gradually better ships which I've been arranging for general promotions; he went through several 6th rate frigates and then straight to a 3rd rate ship of the line. If you want to depict Nelson even remotely accurately, it would be best to make specific exceptions for him as has been done for Hornblower and Aubrey.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

All the English renames are because of their link to Nelson and Aubrey.
Would be a shame to lose that link altogether and it is of course simpler when no character-specific exceptions are needed for that.
But in the end, these were just some random thoughts. Final decision is up to you as far as I'm concerned.

I originally thought of "HMS_Surprise" as being a unique ship for ONLY Jack Aubrey.
Not sure if we should actually do that, though. Might indeed be a bit too limited use of a nice ship model.

 

[Grey Roger]

There are probably quite a few ships which were originally intended as specific to certain characters or stories, which didn't stop me from using them if they looked suitable.

While it might be simpler to have Nelson's ships and officers as default, it wouldn't make for a very good standard progression, and here's why:
Ship 1: HMS Badger, brig
Ship 2: HMS Hinchinbrook, 6th rate frigate
Ship 3: HMS Janus, 5th rate frigate, though Nelson was unable to take up the command due to illness
Ship 4: HMS Albemarle, 6th rate frigate
Additional ships: HMS Argo, 5th rate frigate, plus HMS Enterprise, 6th rate frigate
Ship 5: HMS Boreas, 6th rate frigate
Ship 6: HMS Agamemnon, 3rd rate ship of the line
Ship 7: HMS Captain, 3rd rate ship of the line
Ship 8: HMS Theseus, 3rd rate ship of the line
Ship 9: HMS Vanguard, 3rd rate ship of the line
Ship 9: HMS Victory, 1st rate ship of the line

So even if we leave out a few, such as HMS Janus, we're basically looking at a succession of 6th rate frigates followed directly by at least one 3rd rate and finally the Victory. I would suggest:

Rank 3: HMS Badger, Speedy class brig
Rank 4: HMS Hinchinbrook, 6th rate frigate - "HMS_Greyhound"
Rank 5: HMS Albemarle, 6th rate frigate - "HMS_Unicorn"
Rank 6: HMS Agamemnon, 3rd rate ship of the line - "RN_Superbe" (I actually picked that name and type as the default which everyone else gets at rank 8 without regard to Nelson, simply because I liked the name and threedecks.org showed it to be suitable for a 3rd rate.)
Rank 7: Some 6th rate frigate. This is where anyone else gets a companion ship, generally a 5th rate frigate, but Nelson is ahead of the game by already having a 3rd rate ship of the line, which everyone else gets at rank 8.
Rank 8: nothing - Nelson already has the 3rd rate. This leaves him with a lesser companion ship than the usual progression, but then he's been ahead of everyone else until now, and anyway you're playing Nelson - if you're not up for the challenge, go and play some lesser commander! Alternatively, give Nelson nothing at rank 7 and the usual 5th rate frigate at rank 8.
Rank 9: HMS Victory
Rank 10: companion ship HMS Queen Charlotte, ideally with the commander set to be Cuthbert Collingwood.

Ranks won't match what Nelson really had when in command of those ships, but it's the only way to get a decent set of ships for him. Likewise Michiel De Ruyter's ranks aren't anywhere near accurate but his ships are reasonably close. That's the only way to give historical characters a reasonable progression.

 

[Grey Roger]

Assuming that you don't object to the above scheme for Nelson, could you take a look at this and check that it will do what is specified above? (And check that I didn't mess up when copying, pasting or adding stuff, e.g. adding an extra bracket or removing one, which would cause the game to crash!)

(Edit: faulty version removed, hopefully better one added later.)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Ranks won't match what Nelson really had when in command of those ships, but it's the only way to get a decent set of ships for him. Likewise Michiel De Ruyter's ranks aren't anywhere near accurate but his ships are reasonably close. That's the only way to give historical characters a reasonable progression.

Agreed, of course. The original England ship progressions for the last two periods were only loosely based on Nelson and Aubrey as well.
After all, real world doesn't work like a game either, so we can't follow it completely accurately.
It is nice though if you play like a certain character and you'll see familiar names that you may recognize from actual history or reading the books.

I do like your idea of making Nelson actually more different from "a generic English navy officer". That does give added value to playing as Nelson.

No, partly because he was a historical character and unsuitable for a non-historical steam frigate, and partly because he died in 1792. He has no business commanding anything in the "Napoleonic" period. I'd suggest making up a completely fictitious character to assign to the steam frigate.

Is there any semi-famous American name that is related to steamships? Would be nice if such a character were somewhat recognizable.

 

[Grey Roger]

It is nice though if you play like a certain character and you'll see familiar names that you may recognize from actual history or reading the books.

Agreed, which is why I want Collingwood as his second in command when he achieves top rank. Incidentally, you can also play the opposition, though no specifically named characters exist (yet). I took the names of French and Spanish ships of the line from participants at Trafalgar as well.

Is there any semi-famous American name that is related to steamships? Would be nice if such a character were somewhat recognizable.

Robert Fulton, who designed some of them. Beyond that, not really, because steamships large enough to be comparable to our steam frigate appeared so late that anyone famous in one probably earned that fame in the American Civil War. I was going to suggest Farragut, either the real David Farragut or the commander of the steamship sent to hunt down the sea monster which turned out to be the Nautilus in "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea". But although David Farragut did serve in the Caribbean as part of an anti-piracy squadron, his ship then was a schooner. By the time he got command of a steam warship, it was the Civil War, and anyway that was a screw steamer, not a paddle frigate like ours. As for "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea", that too was set in the 1860's. Using any such officer would be about as sensible as using Abraham Lincoln, who according to a certain film was a vampire hunter, so why not make him commander of a fictitious steam frigate as well.

Steam frigates in the 1810's are our own project so we may as well make up our own officer to command one.

 

[ANSEL]

Assuming that you don't object to the above scheme for Nelson, could you take a look at this and check that it will do what is specified above? (And check that I didn't mess up when copying, pasting or adding stuff, e.g. adding an extra bracket or removing one, which would cause the game to crash!)

This NK.c file make the game crash!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Robert Fulton at least rings a bell. Sure, he probably was never in the navy. But this is just another person who happens to have the same name or something.
Right?

I wonder if the guy should start out with a steam frigate straight away? Or would that be a bit too much of a jump-start again?

 

[Grey Roger]

This NK.c file make the game crash!

Thanks for the report! I'm still learning basic coding...

Try this one:

 

[ANSEL]

Thanks for the report! I'm still learning basic coding...

Try this one:

Yes! This one looks better. We all are learning .

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I'll finally be having my first formal programming course next week.
There's a lot to learn, even after more than ten years.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Try this one:

I just put that in my game version; looking good!
Then we'd just need to check that Aubrey gets his right ships too and add this "Robert Fulton" character.