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Notes on Historical Accuracy (1690 too late?)

A

alan_smithee

Corsair
Storm Modder
So I've been researching the history of this time period, using the Build11 date of 1690 as an anchor... and realized the year might be a little late in the game. Sanctioned buccaneering started to decline by then, since the Treaty of Ratisbone ended the West Indies conflicts between France, Spain and England. In fact, England no longer signed Letters of Marque after 1684...

If Build12 moved the date to 1680, though, pirate hangouts like Tortuga would still be active and -- get this -- the infamous Henry Morgan could be an encounterable character. He was no longer an active privateer, mind you -- he retired to Jamaica in 1675 -- but he continued to secretely secure Letters of Marque from the French and Portugese for other captains. Imagine running into the old salt, grisled but still regal, on FdF or Concieco, and needing his endorsement before you could get enter the service of the governor. This is impossible in the current build because Morgan died in 1688.

So that's what I've found, and there's my suggestion. Your input? Who can tell me the full rationale for 1690, inparticular, being chosen for this build?
 
Well, I think ship design was a major factor for changing this. Many of the ships in PotC are not from 1630...

Also as you can probably surmise, there are many things in this game that are not qute historically accurate... Some people care deeply about accuracy, others don't really think about it... The build addresses and corrects some things, but can't be all things to all people, unfortunately.

Me? Well accuracy to a point, yes, fine... But I'm all for bending the rules... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" /> If you want to create Morgan for a quest, go ahead and create Morgan! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":yes" border="0" alt="yes.gif" /> <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />
 
Aye,fer those who want the date to suit them,ye can easily change it tew whatever ye pleases ,,most of de characters and ships are fictional,so I wouldn't mind seeing famous names of pirates ur otherwise in de game regardles of the time period,but at jest be me humble opinion <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="xD:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />
 
it was me who changed it to 1690, and it was just a guesstimate, based on the political situation (portugal and holland were parts of the spanish empire in 1630!) and what other people on piratesahoy said about anachronstic ship designs. i don't see why we shouldn't change it to 1680 <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" />

i seem to remember that potc the film was set in the 1700s, does that mean the whole film was historically inaccurate?
 
i seriously doubt that the movie was accurate, it was pure fiction after all...

good movie though =]
 
As one of those people that Cat said care about this sort of thing, Historical Accuracy discussions are near and dear to my heart.

The arguments between 1680 and 1690 could go on for months, however, for brevity's sake I think I can focus on political right now. First of all, you need to remember that the biggest year for the second half of the 17th century, perhaps even the early 18th as well, has to be 1688 - and not because Morgan died.

Because of the Glorious Revolution of 1688, that date is the date prescribed to the beginning of modern England. Parliament has kicked out Charles and brought in William of Orange - A Dutch Prince - as king. William has been long embroiled in a war against the French Louis XIV. William sees it as his mission from God to rid the world of the Catholic tyranny, while Louis equally sees it as his to defend Christianity and the `Pseudo-Catholic` empire from heretical protestantism. So the English Parliament decides to offer the crown to William. William gets more resources to fight his war against the French (something the Brits are traditionally good at) and Parliament gets a new King who won't stomp on their property rights. Its a win win (Incidentally, if you are paying attention you should notice that `Jolly-old` England and Holland should not be at War in the game then... but oh well. If you want a period where Great Britain goes up against France, Holland, and Spain you need to look forward a hundred years to the Napoleonic Period).

1688 also saw the modernization of the Royal Navy. `Pre-1688` the ranks we are all familiar with didn't exist. It went something like this:

Admyrall
Master -/- Captain
Lieutenant

Ranks were less commissions and more of a system of `self-imposed` hierarchy. The Admyrall (`early-modern` spelling) commanded the fleet. The Master commanded the ship and sailors. The Captain commanded the military men `on-board` the ship (think Marine captain). The Lieutenant was the Master's assistant in running the ship.

After 1688, when all of England was modernizing, the RN did so too:

Admiral
Vice Admiral
Post Captain (Commodore)
Captain
Master and Commander
Lieutenant
Midshipman / Master's Mates

The big change was the combination of the Master and Captain's roles into the Master and Commander (abbreviated to just Commander, but refferred to as Captain if in command of a ship). Functionally, a Commander was a Lieutenant in command of a ship. If he lost his command, he went back to being a lieutenant - just like a commodore, goes back to captain once the squadron breaks up.

--Regarding your statement that England didn't sign any Letter's of Marque after 1688... that only somewhat true. Privateering was very much legal. In 1692 (I believe) William Kidd received a Letter of Marque to hunt the French in the Caribbean. Likewise, in 1700, he had one to scour the Indian Ocean for Pirates and the French.

Cat said that there were constraints due to ship and rigging types with the dates. That is 100% true. There was never a time when Galeons and Caravels were together with Brigs, Schooners and Corvettes. Without much thinking, you can break the rigging types into two periods and this is where the game's ships would probably fit in:

1st Generation:
Galeons, Caravels, Barques, Tartanas, Sloops, Xebecs and `Men-of`-War.

2nd Generation:
Pinnaces (which really isn't a pinnace, but that's a topic for another thread), Brigs, Schooners, Corvettes, Frigates, `Ships-of`-`the-Line`.

Xebecs, Tartanas, Barques, Sloops, Galeoths were pretty constant throughout the centuries.

I haven't played the game for months, so forgive me if I left some things out.

*Note* The Lineship in game is certainly not a lineship. A Lineship, but definition is any ship capable of fighting from the line (i.e. something with more than 44 guns). Frigates were signal ships maneuvering around the line sort of like fighters around an `air-craft` carrier. The Lineship and Warship - as they are Based on the Black Pearl model are really what during the 17th century would have nominally been referred to as `Men-of`-War. By the 18th Century they would have been obsolete, too slow, wrong hull type etc... The `Man-of`-War in game, a `triple-decker` with 100 guns, is really a 1st rate Line Ship. Therefore, the game is missing a lot of ships between frigate and the 1st rate.

A `Man-of`-War is not a type of rigging, but rather a greater classification of ships all together: a naval fighting ship is a `man-of`-war. Think of it as a counterpoint to a merchantman.

So much for brevity.

Basically, there is not proper time for PotC, so the best place is somewhere in the middle. The date really doesn't matter. When I play I just pick a time in history and `role-play` the period.
 
I just watched PotC again last night, and for the first time caught all the references to Port Royale and Tortuga. As I understand it, the movie is set in the early 18th century... but I think Tortuga was pretty much gone by then, replaced by some other French place. The governor of Tortuga tried to legitimize his piratical people and make them farmers and merchants. I like the image of it as a Wild West sort of town, though, and hope Build12 makes it more rowdy with random attacks and tavern brawls and more trollups running around.

Anyway, you guys definately have a wonderful understanding of the period, something I'm just beginning to dabble in... love to see how it's all worked out in the next build.
 
Ahoy JMV,where ye be hide'n yerself mate,good tew hear from ye <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />
 
Yes, it IS nice to see you back in these fair waters, <b>jmv575!</b> <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/onya.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":onya" border="0" alt="onya.gif" />
 
<!--`QuoteBegin-jmv575`+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jmv575)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
1st Generation:
Galeons, Caravels, Barques, Tartanas, Sloops, Xebecs and `Men-of`-War.

2nd Generation:
Pinnaces (which really isn't a pinnace, but that's a topic for another thread), Brigs, Schooners, Corvettes, Frigates, `Ships-of`-`the-Line`.

Xebecs, Tartanas, Barques, Sloops, Galeoths were pretty constant throughout the centuries.
.[/quote]

I was under the impression that sloops carried on well into the napoleonic era, or at least the term did, something to do with being the size of a barque, but ship rigged... or vice versa... or something
[edit] you said sloop twice,[/edit]
<!--`QuoteBegin-jmv575`+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jmv575)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
*Note* The Lineship in game is certainly not a lineship.  A Lineship, but definition is any ship capable of fighting from the line (i.e. something with more than 44 guns).  Frigates were signal ships maneuvering around the line sort of like fighters around an `air-craft` carrier.  The Lineship and Warship - as they are Based on the Black Pearl model are really what during the 17th century would have nominally been referred to as `Men-of`-War.  By the 18th Century they would have been obsolete, too slow, wrong hull type etc...  The `Man-of`-War in game, a `triple-decker` with 100 guns, is really a 1st rate Line Ship.  Therefore, the game is missing a lot of ships between frigate and the 1st rate.  .[/quote]

the 'line ship' 'warship' and 'battleship' models are just heavy frigates to look at are they not? , and corvette is just french for light frigate etc etc etc

plus there's nowhere near enogh rope anywhere and the men on deck are ten feet tall

it's all very silly and wrong. if i was looking for realism or accuracy the whole thing would drive me nuts and i wouldn't enjoy it, so i just say ' pretty boats... bangbangbang!'
 
There's not a single computer game that *IS* realistic. In real life there ain't such a thing as a "save" option, you know <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" /> , and in the 17th century there was no gps, so the map and `mini-map` are anachronistic <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

etc, etc.
 
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was under the impression that sloops carried on well into the napoleonic era, or at least the term did, something to do with being the size of a barque, but ship rigged... or vice versa... or something
[edit] you said sloop twice,[/edit]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You are right, I did say sloop twice. I should have been clearer. A Sloop is properly a a one masted `fore-and`-aft rigged vessel. Sloops developed rather early on in the history of sailing vessels, thus I put it in the 1st Generation slot. Sloops like that continued well on into the Napoleonic Era. At the time though sloops (one masted `fore-aft` rigged vessels) under went changes to increase that sailing before the wind and the cutter was developed. Still a one masted vessel the cutter usually had a much longer bowsprit with a large staysail and jib, with the addition of a `square-rigged` topmast above the `fore-aft` main course.

In the mid 18th century there developed something called a `Sloop-of`-War. A `sloop-of`-war is a three masted square rigged ship with jibs but it was much smaller than a frigate, hence the separate clasification. There was also a `brig-of`-war which was similar to a `sloop-of`-war except brig rigged with two masts rather than ship rigged with three.



<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->something to do with being the size of a barque, but ship rigged... or vice versa... or something<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The term bark or barque really was a second term for `ship-rigged`, it did not designate a size. I assume that they call the in game ship a barque just for variation. Since the original sea dogs had so many different ship rigged vessels of varrying sizes I think they had planned to include more `ship-rigged` trading vessles in the game, but since its unfinished... etc.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the 'line ship' 'warship' and 'battleship' models are just heavy frigates to look at are they not? , and corvette is just french for light frigate etc etc etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I can't remember exactly what the look like right now. `Man-of`-war is certainly the simplest designation. As I recall, they look a little wide, and a little short. As ship building technology progressed fighting vessles became longer and narrower, while merchants were wider. The explanation for that is common sense. A fighting ship arranges it guns along the rail so the longer the ship more guns.

Next time you look at the three vessels in question look to see if there are `fore-stay` sails and jibs. You need those to be a frigate. Also, the main way of telling a frigate is that it first of all must be a ship (with three `square-rigged` masts) but each mast must then be divided in three (main, top, and topgallant). The only dispute mast is the mizzen. On the later heavy frigates like the Constitution the mizzen consisted of the `fore-aft` mizzen course, a `square-rigged` mizzen course, and a square rigged topmast, and topgallant. The older British and French frigates of around the 1780 and before didn't have the `square-rigged` mizzen course in addition to the `fore-and`-aft. The masts have to be at least divided in to three though to be a frigate. Even if they have royals above the topgallant, its still a frigate. One more thing, to be a frigate you need to be a 6th rate... so no more than 44 guns. Although, in reality, a frigate is used as a frigate. So even if you have a 5th rate, if it functions like a frigate rather than a `ship-of`-`the-line`, then by my book its a frigate.

You are correct about a corvette being a small frigate. As far as I remember the British didn't designate like the French did. The Corvette in the game though is much to large to be a corvette. 32 guns is still a proper frigate. 28 is a corvette. A 44 gun frigate like in the game is a heavy frigate.

I hope this has clarified some of the issues discussed before. I love talking about this stuff., I'm sure you can tell though.
 
wow jmv i bow before yor historic prowess <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_praise.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":bow" border="0" alt="icon_praise.gif" /> and your right about the sloop thing really alll a sloop is any one masted ship rigged a certain way.
 
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