Officer money and wealth

Pieter Boelen · Nov 4, 2006

At the moment officers are generated with a random amount of money. This money can be "stolen" by the player once he hired the officer. This should, of course, not be possible. So IncredibleHat made some code changes that will be in Beta 7 that set that amount of money to wealth instead of normal money. That way the player can't steal it anymore.

This does have a side-effect: All officers have "0" money showing in the F2>Character screen. This can be changed by changing this code in PROGRAM\INTERFACE\character.c:<div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'>    nPlayerMoney = sti(xi_refCharacter.Money);
    if(xi_refCharacter.id == xi_refMainChar.id) nPlayerMoney = sti(xi_refCharacter.wealth); // NK</div>to this:<div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'>    nPlayerMoney = sti(xi_refCharacter.wealth); // PB: Show wealth instead
    // if(xi_refCharacter.id == xi_refMainChar.id) nPlayerMoney = sti(xi_refCharacter.wealth); // NK</div>
That way all characters will show their wealth instead of their money. However, that has a side-effect as well, because now characters that don't have any wealth will show "0" for money. This could again be changed by changing the code to this:
<div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'>    nPlayerMoney = sti(xi_refCharacter.Money);
    if(CheckAttribute(xi_refCharacter, "wealth") && sti(xi_refCharacter.wealth) > 0) nPlayerMoney = sti(xi_refCharacter.wealth); // PB: Always show wealth if available
</div>
This code will result in the interface showing the character's wealth if he has any and otherwise showing his money.

I think that if an officer is paid salary and/or you devide the plunder, that money is added to the character's money, so that the player can steal it again. I am not sure if this is the case though, so can somebody please confirm that? If this is the case, we should change the AddCharacterMoney calls into AddCharacterWealth calls. That way the character's wealth will increase instead.

<b>Ideas for future Build versions:</b>
If the above things are done, there still isn't really any point to officer wealth. So I have a couple of ideas to make officer wealth actually be used somehow in the game:
1) When in port, the officer wealth will decrease (because they drink rum in the taverns <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :wp

" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" /> )
2) If the officer has enough money, he might tell the player that he wants to quit his job and start on his own
3) The player can ask the officer to lend him some money if he needs it. This will only work if that officer is a friend of the player. And if the player doesn't give the money back in time, the officer will get angry and might try to cause a mutiny. Or he'll challenge the player to a fight.

I think we can get to quite some interesting ideas with the player-officer interaction. Especially if the above ideas are combined with the ideas proposed in the <a href="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8371" target="_blank">A suggestion about sailing</a> thread.

Kazeite · Nov 4, 2006

Good ideas, Pieter, but I don't think 1) is practical. I mean, what player would check officers money before and after shore leave? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

And, 3)... the way game is set, if player doesn't have money, then his officers, which have the exact same income source, wouldn't have money either. And if he had such big amount of starting money that he can afford to lend it, then he wouldn't be looking for the job in the first place... Well, unless he's a captured enemy captain <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Pieter Boelen · Nov 4, 2006

It were just random ideas anyway. Idea 1) is just to distinguish between officers who spend a lot of money and officers who save their money. If an officer has enough money, he might want to start on his own. But if he spends a lot in ports, then he doesn't actually GET enough money to start on his own.

I think that a major mod for Build 14 should be officer personalities and more distinguished officer positions. Basically, make the officers play a bigger and more important and interesting role in the game. So officers you hire can become close friends or they can be swindlers who stay with you just because of the money and they'll abandon you as soon as they can. Or they might try to get the crew to mutiny. I think adding such things into the game will truly be a big step to a better pirate game. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />

BTW: I updated my above post, because the code I had posted didn't work. The code I posted now does work.

morgan terror · Nov 4, 2006

i actually think that would be pretty annoying. if you finally have all the skills you need through an officer, and he leaves, you're helpless at a high level( because of difficulty ). i think that mission officers should stay with you if this is added. after all, you did help them a lot. if an officer wants to start a mutiny, the player should be forewarned by a steady drop in morale because the officer is causing the crew to hate you for example.

IncredibleHat · Nov 4, 2006

I thought that "Wealth" and "money" were two seperately shown things on the character sheet?

Personally, I think any money the officer gets a hold of (hired, salary etc) should go straight to their wealth so the player can't steal it off them. I think only a few places this happens:

1) Hiring - which I fixed already making their money into wealth.

2) Salary - which I THINK the money goes to their wealth already? I would have to check, but no time right now.

3) Autolooting - yes, officers actually autoloot, however the code suggests that what THEY autoloot goes straight to YOUR inventory (money, blade, and gun). I've never actually tested this for sure, as its been a long time since I've seen an officer actually kill an enemy (officers seem so useless sometimes lol).

EDIT:
Actually, what I am getting at is that there should be 'party money', and then wealth. Whenever an officer has "money", that should either A) be auto transfered to your money (the "Party Money"), or B) auto transferred to the officers wealth.

LarryHookins · Nov 4, 2006

Sometimes you want an officer to carry party money for you. If you give an officer money, he should hold it until you take it back. Or if he gets killed, it disappears.

Hook

IncredibleHat · Nov 5, 2006

Really? Is there a limit to how much you can carry yourself? If so, then yeah, I see why you would want to give money to your officer to hold onto.

If they hold onto it, then maybe we need a "Squadron" type party money function to get the money on hand that everyone is holding onto <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> LOL ... wow, talk about a big painful mod that would be hehe.

LarryHookins · Nov 5, 2006

There's no limit to what you can carry yourself, but consider:

Thieves don't steal from your officers. Of course now that you know this, I'm sure it will change. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

You might want to deposit *most* of your money at a loanshark, but not all of it. The choices are limited, so give an officer what you want to keep, then deposit all you have left.

Dividing the loot: You might want to hold some back in addition to the starting share the party has after loot is divided. Officers are good for this too.

Some people might want to designate an officer as a "mule" to carry stuff until it can be placed into the ship's locker. Or just to simplify their inventory.

Another consideration: should you ever want to raise an officer's HP at the apothecary, the money to do so comes out of YOUR personal wealth, not the wealth of the officer in question. Would be nice if he could pay you back. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Since fame is based in large part on personal wealth, there could be a situation where one of your officers is more famous than you are.

Just random thoughts. Don't do away with an officer's ability to carry party money.

Hook

IncredibleHat · Nov 5, 2006

Ah. I wasn't going to bother anyhow... if its not a bug, I wasn't going to fix it. So officer money is safe for now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

Pieter Boelen · Nov 5, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Nov 4 2006, 08:22 PM) [snapback]169908[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I thought that "Wealth" and "money" were two seperately shown things on the character sheet?
</div>In the case of the main character, his wealth is shown in the middle of the interface and the "party money" is shown at the bottom right corner of the screen. With officers, however, the money that is shown in the bottom right corner of the screen is the officer's salary. At the moment you see the officer's "party money" in the middle of the interface. However, the officer's "party money" is basically your own money, because you can simply take it from him. So I think it would be better to show the officer's wealth there now that officers do get wealth.

Basically, officers have three types of money to show:
1) "Party money" that the officer is holding on to: The player can take this from him
2) Wealth that the officer earns and that the player can't take from him
3) Salary that the officer must be paid each month

I saw a whole bunch of AddMoneyToCharacter calls in the officer salary pay and devide the loot code. This suggests to me that this money is put in the officer's "party money" so that the player can take it back again. I think some of these calls should be changed to AddWealthToCharacter calls. But before I do that, I want to be SURE that money given to the officers by salary or deviding the loot IS in fact put in the party money.

I agree that money that belongs to the officer should be put in his wealth. This includes the money he had originally and the money given to him through salary or deviding the plunder. Not sure what to do with autolooting.

Each officer character should have a personal wealth that the player can't touch. If the officer is given party money by the player for safekeeping, then the player should be allowed to take it back again as well. But only in that case.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Nov 4 2006, 08:22 PM) [snapback]169908[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
officers seem so useless sometimes lol.
</div>Yes they do. I think one of the major improvements in Build 14 should be to make officers much more important in the game. If possible I'd like to make it so that the player simply can't finish the game without relying on officers. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :cheeky

" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(morgan terror @ Nov 4 2006, 05:24 PM) [snapback]169876[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
i actually think that would be pretty annoying. if you finally have all the skills you need through an officer, and he leaves, you're helpless at a high level( because of difficulty ). i think that mission officers should stay with you if this is added. after all, you did help them a lot. if an officer wants to start a mutiny, the player should be forewarned by a steady drop in morale because the officer is causing the crew to hate you for example.
</div>I quite agree with that. I can see that officers leaving you can be quite annoying, but the player should have ways of keeping the officer with him. For example, if the officer is a bloke and the player a hero and the officer is a good friend of the player, he'll stay with the player no matter what. On the other hand, if the officer is a hero and the player a swindler, the officer might want to leave. The same goes for the other way around: If the player is a hero and the officer a swindler. In any case, if the officer is wanting to leave, he'll inform the player of this and give the player the opportunity to convince him to stay. Also the player should be able to see a mutiny coming, but it shouldn't be too obvious. Perhaps we could make it so that the player should talk to the crew every now and then to see how happy they still are.

I think that if we think these ideas through thoroughly we should be able to come up with a whole bunch of idea to immerse the player a whole lot more in the game and make Build 14 yet a major improvement over Build 13. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />

Black Bart · Nov 5, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Nov 5 2006, 12:01 PM) [snapback]170003[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Nov 4 2006, 08:22 PM) [snapback]169908[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
officers seem so useless sometimes lol.
</div>Yes they do. I think one of the major improvements in Build 14 should be to make officers much more important in the game. If possible I'd like to make it so that the player simply can't finish the game without relying on officers. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :cheeky

" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

I can see that officers leaving you can be quite annoying, but the player should have ways of keeping the officer with him. For example, if the officer is a bloke and the player a hero and the officer is a good friend of the player, he'll stay with the player no matter what. On the other hand, if the officer is a hero and the player a swindler, the officer might want to leave. The same goes for the other way around: If the player is a hero and the officer a swindler. In any case, if the officer is wanting to leave, he'll inform the player of this and give the player the opportunity to convince him to stay. Also the player should be able to see a mutiny coming, but it shouldn't be too obvious. Perhaps we could make it so that the player should talk to the crew every now and then to see how happy they still are.

I think that if we think these ideas through thoroughly we should be able to come up with a whole bunch of idea to immerse the player a whole lot more in the game and make Build 14 yet a major improvement over Build 13. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />
</div>

Its always troubled me that the effect of an Officers reputation seems to matter little, and more so in the realtionship between you and that Officer. That proposal Pieter, of linking player and Officer reputations sounds like a good one, interesting also.

The way i've always pictured these working in my game is almost like a class divide, the higher reputations belong to the educated well spoken officer, while the lower reps belong to your more common man(suitable for a pirate). This mix of class if you like has always brought a certain conflict with it(as the structure in the armed forces can illustrate- a 'rank and file' and 'officer' alliance).

In the context of the game, i could see it being in the intrest of the player to try to keep officers that fit within the players own class/rep(i tend to hire Officers simular to my chars rep in my games).
Still sometimes you have no choice but to take on whats available, so it could indeed make for an interesting dynamic. And i like the idea of mutiny being an actual possibility.

I dont think i've ever had any problems from crew or officers that require me to pay a bit more attention to this aspect of the game. Its very rare to run out of food/rum(mainly due to the size of the game map and voyage distances) and introducing some aspect that forces the player to have to care abit more would imho be a good addition.
You are a Captian of a ship(s) - you do have responsibilities to your crew+officers and there should be repercussions if you dont do your duty by them. Definately something we can have fun with for build14.

IncredibleHat · Nov 5, 2006

Funny, in the stock game officers were basically temporary uses.

I would keep officers with me only to gain their skills/attributes. But as soon as I had to do any sort of dungeon plunging, or ship boarding, I ditched my officers instantly, becase they were so fricken useless <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

It's good to be moving officers in the right direction now.

Black Bart · Nov 5, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Nov 5 2006, 03:19 PM) [snapback]170035[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Funny, in the stock game officers were basically temporary uses.

I would keep officers with me only to gain their skills/attributes. But as soon as I had to do any sort of dungeon plunging, <b>or ship boarding, I ditched my officers instantly</b>, becase they were so fricken useless <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

It's good to be moving officers in the right direction now.
</div>

I do this to spare thier lives - basicaly if i dont want any of my officers to die during boarding i remove them into the 'passenger' list. If they are in my active officer slots then they often get killed. Yeh they are pretty useless in that aspect, and i'm not sure how much effect their skills have on the running of your ship.
I mentioned this to Pieter after not seeing any difference in my ships performance(speed+control) from having a navigator with sailing skills+abilities 'equiped' or not?
So yeah i think we can do alot to make officers actualy worth something.

IncredibleHat · Nov 5, 2006

You can tell the officer to sit the boardings out. That way you don't have to manually remove them and add them each time.

LarryHookins · Nov 5, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black Bart @ Nov 5 2006, 07:31 AM) [snapback]170024[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>Its always troubled me that the effect of an Officers reputation seems to matter little, and more so in the realtionship between you and that Officer. That proposal Pieter, of linking player and Officer reputations sounds like a good one, interesting also.</div>
I've got code in the game so that when the player's reputation increases or decreases, the 3 officers in your party get the change too, but only half as much. Unless it's a 1 point change, in which case the officer gets the whole point.

Hook

Black Bart · Nov 5, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Nov 5 2006, 04:52 PM) [snapback]170049[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black Bart @ Nov 5 2006, 07:31 AM) [snapback]170024[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>Its always troubled me that the effect of an Officers reputation seems to matter little, and more so in the realtionship between you and that Officer. That proposal Pieter, of linking player and Officer reputations sounds like a good one, interesting also.</div>
I've got code in the game so that when the player's reputation increases or decreases, the 3 officers in your party get the change too, but only half as much. Unless it's a 1 point change, in which case the officer gets the whole point.

Hook
</div>

Yeah that was a point i failed to mention in my reply to Pieters post - it would be great to have an actual way you(the player) could directly effect your oficers reps also. At moment do they change? i'm not sure.

So that code would be very useful to have for making officers more useful to the player imho.

Oh and the graduation of rep change, is it a simple 1-10 kind of scale? how many points are needed to improve your rep by one stage?

I know in some of the earlier betas it felt like i was progressing too quickly in my rep, often by simple little thins like pointing out to an NPC that their money pouch was about to fall out their pocket etc.
I havent been feeling it so much recently so i dont know if the values have been changed for rep improvement recently, but i think making it more difficult to change, or more accurately more 'drawn out' in your ability to change your rep; that might be nice to aim for?
especialy in the context of a new officer structure where rep will be much more important to the smooth running of your ship and crew.

Still it depends on how much give there is in the way rep +rep change is calculated. If its like a simple 1-10(each point represents a rep type, Hero/Rascal etc), then that makes it harder to spread out the players actions vs the rep points gained for an improvement(or opposite) to take effect? So if you could make a rep range as a 1-100 instead of a 1-10, then its easier to make the changes gradual.

lol does any of that make sense! If not i can give a table to show what i'm getting at..........i'll do it just in case.

So maybe its like this at the momment?: (i wont remember all the correct reps!)

1=Bloody Terror
2=Rascal
3=Swindler
4=rogue(made that one up!)
5=Neutral
6=bloke
7=matey
8=chap(that one also!)
9=Dashing
10=Hero

So when you gain a +1 in your rep you improve your rep by one on that scale. Is that how it is now - i'm not sure?

change to something like this:

1-10 = Bloody Terror
11-20=Rascal
21-30=Swindler
31-40=rogue
41-50=Neutral
51-60=bloke
61-70=matey
71-80=chap
81-90=dashing
91-100=hero

So in this scale a +1 to your rep might not mean an automatic improvement in your rep, it takes ten such events to make a rep change. this gives you many more options for including events that increase or decrease your own and your officers rep.

Officer money and wealth

Pieter Boelen

Navigation Officer

Kazeite

Privateer

Pieter Boelen

Navigation Officer

morgan terror

Magnificent bastard

IncredibleHat

Landlubber

LarryHookins

Buccaneer

IncredibleHat

Landlubber

LarryHookins

Buccaneer

IncredibleHat

Landlubber

Pieter Boelen

Navigation Officer

Black Bart

Corsair

IncredibleHat

Landlubber

Black Bart

Corsair

IncredibleHat

Landlubber

LarryHookins

Buccaneer

Black Bart

Corsair