POTC galleon accuracy

[Lonious]

Hi all,

Is the POTC galleon model based on any particular real life galleon design? They are freakishly large (64 metres) and seem to be based on early 17th century designs. After doing some research on Manila galleons though, it appears some of the biggest galleons built by Spain kind of looked like 4th rate ships.

In New Horizons, the "Royal Manila Galleon" uses the stock model, so does this mean the real ones did in fact look like that?

Did the galleon design change over the centuries to look more like lineships or did they retain the characteristic "raised stern"? Does the POTC galleon resemble any historical galleons?

 

[Grey Roger]

There was no standard galleon design in the 16th-17th century. So it wouldn't be too surprising if some ship or other looked like that. But I wouldn't think "Manila" galleons would have operated in the Caribbean, they'd have been in the Pacific bringing treasure from Manila.

The "Treasure Galleon" in PoTC:NH is based on a real ship, the Apostól Felipe. Likewise, "Spanish Heavy War Galleon" is based on the San Martin. And the fast war galleons are probably based on a real design because I've seen a physical model of a very similar ship which wasn't based on the game - that model existed long before anybody had ever heard of "Pirates of the Caribbean"!

Ship design changed over the centuries but later ships lacking the stern castle weren't galleons. The other characteristic of a galleon was the beak - compare the bow of a galleon with the bow of a later design such as a pinnace or lineship.

 

[Lonious]

There was no standard galleon design in the 16th-17th century. So it wouldn't be too surprising if some ship or other looked like that. But I wouldn't think "Manila" galleons would have operated in the Caribbean, they'd have been in the Pacific bringing treasure from Manila.

The "Treasure Galleon" in PoTC:NH is based on a real ship, the Apostól Felipe. Likewise, "Spanish Heavy War Galleon" is based on the San Martin. And the fast war galleons are probably based on a real design because I've seen a physical model of a very similar ship which wasn't based on the game - that model existed long before anybody had ever heard of "Pirates of the Caribbean"!

Ship design changed over the centuries but later ships lacking the stern castle weren't galleons. The other characteristic of a galleon was the beak - compare the bow of a galleon with the bow of a later design such as a pinnace or lineship.

Thanks for the reply!

I'm doing some research now on "Santisima Trinidad" (not the first rate) and someone pointed to me the supposed blueprints of the ship (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLtI7JjQUNdo1mUoI5vyqIp8zDa-ZqLp5Osw&usqp=CAU). This was allegedly the largest galleon ever built by Spain, weighing 2000 tons with 60 guns. This is supposedly a replica model of her:

Spoiler

This doesn't look like the game galleon at all, lacking the raised stern and "beak". However, there's another Manila galleon called Nuestra Señora del Pilar (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfNwNIGeoits4aLS5-7Ulil_t5Z-VmIZOkCg&usqp=CAU), and she looks similar. Smaller but still pretty large, at 50+ guns.

Both seem to me more like 4th rates in appearance. Are these actually galleons, or are their depictions incorrect?

 

[Grey Roger]

The Wikipedia article on galleons does say:

Later, when the term started to be applied to sail-only vessels, it meant, like the English term "man-of-war", any large warship that was otherwise no different from the other sailing ships of the time.

So Santisima Trinidad was a galleon in that it was an armed merchant ship, but not in the classical sense of a ship with a beak and stern castle. The classic galleons seen in the game are limited to the first three periods, which means they won't be seen after 1739. The Santisima Trinidad was a much more modern design and it shows!

Besides, that model has the wrong flag. The red-yellow-red flag was introduced in 1785, whereas the Santisima Trinidad was launched in 1751 and captured by the British in 1762. Look at any Spanish warship in the game in the "Colonial Powers" period and you'll see the Bourbon flag, which is what the ship would probably have been flying between 1751 and 1762 - or possibly the white Burgundy cross on blue, as you'll see on any Spanish merchant ship in the game in the same period.

The Santisima Trinidad could probably be reasonably approximated by the "Natividad" model. That's a "Fleuron" model with a "Superbe" mizzen mast because the "Fleuron", an earlier design, has a lateen sail on the mizzen, whereas the "Superbe" has a spanker like the one in that photo. It also has 60 guns compared to 66 on the "Fleuron", though that was done by changing the number in "Ships_init.c" and removing some firing locators so that the model wouldn't try to fire more guns than it's supposed to have. It still has too many cannon barrels showing - nothing can be done about that without creating a whole new model, which is beyond me! But at present the "Natividad" only appears in a quest specific to Horatio Hornblower. On the other hand, that picture of Nuestra Señora del Pilar shows a lateen sail, which means the "Fleuron" would be close enough and does appear routinely in the game, in the "Colonial Powers" period, and is used as a warship by both Spain and France.

 

[Lonious]

The Wikipedia article on galleons does say:So Santisima Trinidad was a galleon in that it was an armed merchant ship, but not in the classical sense of a ship with a beak and stern castle. The classic galleons seen in the game are limited to the first three periods, which means they won't be seen after 1739. The Santisima Trinidad was a much more modern design and it shows!

Besides, that model has the wrong flag. The red-yellow-red flag was introduced in 1785, whereas the Santisima Trinidad was launched in 1751 and captured by the British in 1762. Look at any Spanish warship in the game in the "Colonial Powers" period and you'll see the Bourbon flag, which is what the ship would probably have been flying between 1751 and 1762 - or possibly the white Burgundy cross on blue, as you'll see on any Spanish merchant ship in the game in the same period.

The Santisima Trinidad could probably be reasonably approximated by the "Natividad" model. That's a "Fleuron" model with a "Superbe" mizzen mast because the "Fleuron", an earlier design, has a lateen sail on the mizzen, whereas the "Superbe" has a spanker like the one in that photo. It also has 60 guns compared to 66 on the "Fleuron", though that was done by changing the number in "Ships_init.c" and removing some firing locators so that the model wouldn't try to fire more guns than it's supposed to have. It still has too many cannon barrels showing - nothing can be done about that without creating a whole new model, which is beyond me! But at present the "Natividad" only appears in a quest specific to Horatio Hornblower. On the other hand, that picture of Nuestra Señora del Pilar shows a lateen sail, which means the "Fleuron" would be close enough and does appear routinely in the game, in the "Colonial Powers" period, and is used as a warship by both Spain and France.

Interesting info. So, apparently the term "galleon" could be loosely applied to any large cargo ship at the time which was heavily armed, even if it was without the typical "beak/stern castle" design. The way I see it, that type of design was more for earlier periods (16th-early 18th C.). Now I know, more or less.

However, it was still a cargo ship, so I was a little confused with the "lean" design. To my understanding actual lineships didn't have to be "fat" since they were meant for fighting, as opposed to galleons which needed room for the cargo. So I wonder how they fit in all those goods into it.

 

[Grey Roger]

Interesting info. So, apparently the term "galleon" could be loosely applied to any large cargo ship at the time which was heavily armed, even if it was without the typical "beak/stern castle" design. The way I see it, that type of design was more for earlier periods (16th-early 18th C.). Now I know, more or less.

Yes, that is my understanding too. A true galleon as seen in the game was for the earlier periods; later the word was used for any large, armed cargo ship such as the Santisima Trinidad.

However, it was still a cargo ship, so I was a little confused with the "lean" design. To my understanding actual lineships didn't have to be "fat" since they were meant for fighting, as opposed to galleons which needed room for the cargo. So I wonder how they fit in all those goods into it.

The model of Santisima Trinidad shows a big gap between the lower gun deck and the waterline, so that may be cargo space. The blueprint doesn't show an end-on view so you can't see how fat the ship is, but it does show plenty of space below the gun deck, especially version B. The model of Nuestra Señora del Pilar may simply be inaccurate as it seems to show a lean warship, not a fat merchant.