Realism issues

[Siegfried]

Hello everybody,

First of all I'd like to introduce myself since I've been reading this forum since 2007 or so but only now found reason to register.
My name is Leandro, 28, from Argentina.
I've been playing PC ship games since 1994.
Some of the ones, closely or no so closely related to this genre, I played are: High Seas Trader, Ports of Call, Ocean Trader, Harpoon 1 and 2, Age of Sail, Pirates Gold, Sid Meier's Pirates, Silent Hunter I, II, III and IV, Sea Dogs 1, 2, Age of Pirates, and of course Age of Pirates 2. Also Tropico II, MS-DOS Privateer, Aces of the Deep. Empire Total War, thanks to the sea battles involved, is also worth mentioning. I'm also a literature fan of the pirate or high sea genre, having read Conrad, Hemingway, Salgari, and pathetically lastly, I have recurring dreams of battles, 80% of them are sea-based battles and I've gotten as far as getting up suddenly feeling the pain of the shrapnel in my body. So, yes, I'm pretty f**ked up yet that's not what I would like to discuss but I do want you to know a little about me as far as background goes because that's what makes a difference when it comes to criticism: It's not the same if Britney Spears doesn't like the book you just written, that if Cormack McCarthy doesn't. I have a good history on gaming and a devotion on sea, I'm a weekend sailor myself and well, that's about all I have to say about me.

I really pitty how bad gaming industry has been treating us lately regarding the production, money, effort spent in the games they offer to us. If they'd put 50% of the investment in, say, Fallout 3, we could live happily ever after playing the definitive Sea Dog game. You know about the bugs, the problems, the everything I mean and I'm positive you feel the same.

However that's when community kicks in, and I really want to tip my hat to the work some guys have been doing in order to make Age of Pirates 2 all the game it can be.
After struggling for months with this game I decided to download and install the patch COAS Combined Mod Version 3.

I found it to be good. Really good. Until I got to my first battles.

Now some things are good. But some others aren't. Please don't feel aggraviated by my criticism as I intend to do something about it; but first things first.

Style: This game is not an arcade. Go play Galaga if you want to shoot things off at the speed of light.
Reloading Times: Nobody, in the history of the universe, could reload a 24 pounder in 20 seconds. Reloading does take time.
Ballistic: So the bigger the bullet, the farther it will travel? Please do apply the most minimum ballistic notions.

The game, as any game, does have some licenses in terms of realism. I'm not looking for the most accurate game possible. However, what I feel from what I see on the patch is that you completely missed the point regarding reality. The naval combat changes implemented make one feel like you guys all you care about is to get the biggest ship possible with the heaviest guns possible that will shoot as far as possible and reload as fast as possible. That's completely nonsense. It's not even pleasurable to play such a game.

There are a thing or two you have to consider about history. How big can a ship be? How many guns can it possibly carry?
Homework: Read about the Yamato. Read about the Santísima Trinidad. There was a reason behind the size of the ships, the cannons, the amount of cannons. And it's not practicality, it is that in truth size, caliber, number of guns, work until certain point. From there on, it's only loss.
Same happens with hand guns. It's all about practicality.

I'm OK with the fact that different gun caliber would shoot the same ammo. If you have to make the difference between calibers in ammo then the game becomes unplayable, HOWEVER, ranges, calibers, damage and reloading times have to be completely reworked.

I have absolutely no experience modding this game whatsoever, still I work in the IT business and know my way around. I did modify several other games but never this one.
So what I'm going to do is to rework the stats for the guns and share with the community. It will take some time, however, but it will be worth the while.

I leave a question: Do guns have a "natural accuracy" stat? Culverins were more accurate (and expensive, but I already found the price) than cannons, and I would like to offset the higher reloading time with the extra range.

BTW the amount of calibers now available is far too idealistic. In those times, a cannon ball for a given caliber (in pounds) would be the nominal weight + - 20%. So creating a 14 pounder as a better cannon than the 12 pounder is ridiculous.
Let alone the fact that a 74-pounder would weigh about 8000 lbs. You want to put 100 in a ship?
Yeah, right.

So I'll build a technically and historically accurate model for game's guns and I'll share for those who, like me, feel better with realism rather than Galaga.


Regards

Siegfried

 

[Luke159]

Hi bud, have you tried GOF 1.1, i think you will find that their was much changes to this area already. You can play with the stock loading times which are longer than the realistic loading times added. Although that doesn't make much sense it was done to allow for those who like have faster loading times while those who do not can simply switch to the stock loading times. Culverines differences over cannons has been done as well now. Sede bellow.

Culverine compared to cannons calibures
4
8
12
16
20
24
28
32
36 (cannons only)
42 (cannons only)
92 (cannons and only used for forts not ships)

Range: culverines now have the range of 2 calibures above them ie, using the calibure layout above, a 4Ibs culverine now has the range of 2 cannon calibures above it ie, 12Ibs cannons.
Damage: Culverine nopw just like its range has the same damage as 2 calibures above it.
Cost: Culverines cost much more than the same sized cannon calibures.
Weight: Culverines are heavier than the cannons of equal calibure.
Loading times: culverines take longer to load than cannons.

So in short the culverine's are the better calibure but due to their weight they can be some what of a hard choice to make as cargo space is very important if your a merchant. So we have already addressed the issue with calibures and as you can see the amount of calibures has been halved now.

 

[modernknight1]

Have you read this thread Mate? http://forum.piratesahoy.net/index.php/topic/15030-realistic-cannon-fix-mod/

We've discussed this and played with it a lot over the years. A big point of discussion has always been the fun factor vice simulations quality realism. I totally agree with your Galaga comments. I feel like we have some good compromises in RTBL. Read the thread Mate.

QUOTE: I really pitty how bad gaming industry has been treating us lately regarding the production, money, effort spent in the games they offer to us. If they'd put 50% of the investment in, say, Fallout 3, we could live happily ever after playing the definitive Sea Dog game. You know about the bugs, the problems, the everything I mean and I'm positive you feel the same.

AMEN BROTHER!!!

The COAS modding team has always leaned towards realism (both historically and physics/physically speaking) as being much more important than fantasy or pandering to the low attention spans of kiddie game fans. We have made compromises. For example I've always leaned towards the fantasy ships only being quest ships (the Black Pearl is so cool that there should only be one and she should be hard to get) and in terms of ordinance, we have 32 pounder culverines when historically the biggest they got was 28 pounders. I've never heard of a 74 pounder before, maybe you meant a 24 pounder - because they did indeed weigh 8,000 pounds a piece. Yet in our game no physics parameters exist to limit a corvette from mounting a whole battery of em when the largest corvettes historically mounted 18 pounders.

Like I said, we made compromises, but it's way better than what we started with: no limitations and you could mount the mythical 48 pounder on about anything with machine gun speed reload speeds.

Anyway, Welcome aboard Mate. We love discussing this stuff!!!! :will

MK

 

[Officerpuppy]

I'm still of the opinion that the 92's should go and that the largest calibur gun should be the 42.

 

[HundertzehnGustav]

just short...
was the original game not a game...in a gaming way, movie like...

turning this into a true simulator... impossible? too many missing pieces of the puzzle?

i wish it really WAS one. a naval SCS... sailing & combat simulator... The Simulator to learn sailing near shore and in the streams, have a first fight, first boarding actions.... and live from 1600 to 1850,and have command of a dozen Lineships in the end.

 

[Thagarr]

Ahoy Siegfried, welcome aboard mate!

I agree with a lot of your assessments, but like MK stated earlier, there has to be at least some compromise. I have also played most of the games that you referenced, and I agree that some of those games did have a lot more realism in some respects, but also lacked quite a lot in other aspects of the games. I have followed a lot of the CoAS developments over the years, although I haven't really participated much in them much, I have read most of the discussions our Mod Teams have had. There have been a lot of well thought out arguments on both sides and I really feel the compromises they have reached really are about the best balance between gameplay and realism that we are ever likely to get from any video game. I also remember similar discussions back in 2003 when we first started modding for POTC, and some similar compromises had to be reached, although there were obvious differences.

I also agree whole heartedly with your assessment of the way game companies have treated gamers the last few years. While there are other reasons that I won't go into right now, the sad fact is that most western gamers have been brainwashed in to thinking that the only way a game can be good is if it has flashy eye candy graphics, and something dies or explodes anytime you click a mouse button. Realism, problem solving, tactics and actually thinking for yourself about how to solve a problem are not even considered an option by most of todays gamers. All game companies want is to make the next big hit that will make them millions, it doesn't matter if the game is actually any good, as long as they can sell a few million copies they are happy! It became pretty obvious to me a long time ago that if we wanted a proper pirate game, we would have to write it ourselves. We are slowly getting there mate, now that we have the source code for CoAS to work with, in the future our mods will only get better!

 

[Officerpuppy]

I agree with Thagarr, we have to compromise with what's "real" and what's "fun." And so far I think we've done a good job so far with the CM and GoF!

 

[HorrorOfThe7Seas!]

i totaly agree with Thagarr too . i to im near 30) and playing games over 20 years im sry 2 say there is 0.001% chance that there will ever again be games like Gothic and AoP series

its a world wide problem not only in game industry , look closer what happend to movies and music over last 20+ years

thats why i really respect this hand full of people doing the real deal free of charge )

who knows, my fellow oldschool gamers , maybe one day we will live 2 see a game in which is invested epic amounts of creativity , a game u wont play and uninstal or uninstal after 5 mins of play ))


p.s. Great job once again guys im finding more and more ships in GOF1.1 fell in love in le superbe frigate :luv