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Realistic Sailing?

jmv575

Landlubber
Storm Modder
Hello All:

I was talking to Nathan about making the Realistic Sailing more realistic and he thought this should be a main thread. So, I'd like to present some ideas on things that could be added to make it all more realistic. If you some ideas of your own, write 'em down and perhaps we can all come up with some solutions.

`Battle-sails`, All Sails
As it stands now, you only have two commands regarding speed. We all know that this was certainly not the case. In addition to adding one sail at a time, you could reef the sails to make them shorter, thus reducing speed. The ability to either reef, or add sails individually would greatly increase the freedom allowed to various captains.

Why reduce sail?
The obvious question that comes out of the first idea is "why would I want to go slower?" Apart from the situations when you want to go slower for strategic purposes, there is the pure sailing element. That being, too much sail means that you will catch a lot of wind. If the wind is too strong, you might carry away a mast.

Encounter Distance:
Currently, you need only be 500 yards from an enemy to "escape to sea." 500 yards is a little low considering in `real-life` an 18pdr could penetrate 2 feet of oak at 1300 yards. 500 yards is still very much in the danger zone. By increasing the distance to 2000 yards, however, the strategic situations of the game are more realistic and exhilarating. The simple maneuvers we all know to gain those extra 100 yards against a faster ship no longer work. Instead, we must run and be deadly efficient with our stern chasers to damage rigging or carry away a mast. Running, is now more intense, takes longer, and requires a sharp eye on the wind, and a deep understanding of how your particular ship handles.

Leeway:
The 12 knot wind is blowing on your starboard quarter. Your `square-rig` loves every second of this fine sailing as you keep your heading as straight as an arrow. Realistic? No. In real life ships drifted to lee… that is, if the wind was blowing from port, then the ship would automatically drift to starboard. Just like sails catch the wind, the hull catches the wind too. Obviously, each ship varies in its drift to leeward; those with large poops and `fore-castles` drift quite a bit, while the smaller hulls drift less. Regardless, all ships slide to the leeward direction.

Leeward Shore:
Like fighting around islands? With drifting to leeward you'll dread it. When you have an open sea, the drifting isn't so bad; but when you have a leeward shore, if you're not careful, and you don’t know your ship, you could find yourself driven onshore.

Storms:
Continuing with the idea of too much wind knocking down masts, in storms you had to not only be careful of carrying away a mast, but you also had to be certain you were sailing with the wind dead astern. Remember, the wind directs the swells. If you ride the swells so that you are hit in the stern you are in good shape. If you get hit along the side, however, you run a very high risk of being rolled over. The breaking of waves over the sides of the ship is called "breaching." When this begins to happen, the ship will founder and go straight down. If you have carry away a mast in a storm, you lose your steerage and the next wave that hits your stern will send you off course. The next will hit you amidships and breach to, sending you down with all hands. Storms become intense and dangerous, with an actual goal. No mare dropping all sail and riding it out as you spin off to oblivion. Instead, you are watching the wind, listening to the sound of the rigging, and fighting to keep your head on course.

So, those are just a few ideas on how to make sailing more intense. The hard part is coding it. Ideas?
 
I wish I'll see exactly what you said some day...

(maybe before `X-mas`? ) <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/keith.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":keith" border="0" alt="keith.gif" />
 
I'm all for changing the Encounter Distance the way you suggest, JMV! I enjoy the challenge of a running battle...

Leeway and Leeward also good suggestions to make the sailing experience more realistic. It's a small difference, but it *is* a difference... Good call..

Same with the storms - I've often wondered why storms weren't more difficult...

Something I've always been annoyed with is when you're in a battle and you shoot away your enemy's masts - yet they can still steer and sail (albeit very poorly). Can this attribute have something to do with leeway?
 
Nice ideas here. Drifting to leeward would certainly make life interesting in running coastal battles <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/w00t.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":woot" border="0" alt="w00t.gif" />

Encounter distance is defined at the top of <b>PROGRAMSEA_AIAIShip.c</b>

#define MIN_ENEMY_DISTANCE_TO_DISABLE_MAP_ENTER 500.0
#define MIN_ENEMY_DISTANCE_TO_DISABLE_ENTER_2_LOCATION 500.0

As you point out, 500 yards is still within gun range. I`ve increased the escape distance to 1000 yards which is much more nerve wracking, especially if you disable SailTo at the same time - as mentioned in this thread <a href="http://forum.piratesahoy.net/ftopic2843.php" target="_blank">http://forum.piratesahoy.net/ftopic2843.php</a>

btw the distances are `yards` according to the spyglass but the gun ranges are given in feet on the cannon screens. When I`m shooting Grape at 100 `units`, it looks like 100 Yards to my eye, and that`s more to scale with the ship models. I`m sure `feet` is wrong so I changed my <b>common.ini</b> at the bottom of the interface ship state section.

string = feet,"Yards"
string = sec.,"sec."

I agree that ships are still too manoevreable even with 0% sail left, but my biggest gripe is with captains who point square into the wind and sit there at 0.0 Knots wondering why they`re not going anywhere...
 
Hmm, neat idea re: feet->yards!

Regarding AI. I'm not exactly sure how much sea AI is done in the scripts and how much is native.
A quick "hack' would be to check if ai ship is pointed at wind, and if so give a move order perpendicular to their current heading. But I don't know if that'd stick.

Re: OP.
As I said in that PM, great ideas!

Leeway I _think_ can be modded by adding to char.ship.impulse.speed.X. impulse.ang.(all but Y) are ignored, but impulse.speed may not be.

Re: storms. That can certainly be done.

And another idea you mentioned earlier (not really sailing related but still realism related) is changing the max elevation and depression of the guns (in the latest update on CVS now, in BS.h is a scalar for that).
What would be a realistic elev. limit for a gun (and depression too ftm)?
 
The realistic maximum elevation changes were +10 degrees and - 5 degrees; not much at all. Intially, all guns were only able to move side to side aprox. 5 degrees, but by the end of the 18th century advances in gunnery technology allowed for a max change of 45 degrees to either side!

To do this, however you really need to increase the range of the guns to their realistic values:

<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->                                                        Range       Recoil

                    Total   Diameter         Powder  with 5deg.  on Ship's           .    

 Nature of Gun.     Length  of Shot   Weight Charge  Elevation   Carriage                  

                    ------------------------------------------------------                                          

                    Ft. In.  In.      Cwts.   Lbs.    Yards.       Ft

42 Pdr                9  6    6.7      67      14     1,940         -

32 Pdr                9  6    6.1      55.5    10.5   2,080         11

24 Pdr                9  6    5.6      50.0     8     1,800         11

24 Pdr                6  6    5.6      33.0     6     1,550         10.5

l8 Pdr                9  0    5.1      42.0     6     1,800         -

l2 Pdr                8  6    4.4      34.0     4     1,580         -

9 Pdr                8  6    4.0      31.5     3     1,620         -

68 Pdr. Carronade     4  1    7.9      36.0     5.5   1,280         -

42 Pdr. Carronade     4  4    6.7      22.2     3.5   1,170         -

32 Pdr. Carronade     4  0    6.1      17.1     2.625 1,087         -

24 Pdr. Carronade     3  0    5.6      11.5     2     1,050         -

18 Pdr. Carronade     2  4    5.1       8.5     1.5   1,000         -

l2 Pdr. Carronade     2  2    4.4       5.9     1       870         -

                     ------------------------------------------------------

                     Cwt = Hundredweight = 112 lb.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
 
"Storms:
Continuing with the idea of too much wind knocking down masts, in storms you had to not only be careful of carrying away a mast, but you also had to be certain you were sailing with the wind dead astern. Remember, the wind directs the swells. If you ride the swells so that you are hit in the stern you are in good shape. If you get hit along the side, however, you run a very high risk of being rolled over. The breaking of waves over the sides of the ship is called "breaching." When this begins to happen, the ship will founder and go straight down. If you have carry away a mast in a storm, you lose your steerage and the next wave that hits your stern will send you off course. The next will hit you amidships and breach to, sending you down with all hands. Storms become intense and dangerous, with an actual goal. No mare dropping all sail and riding it out as you spin off to oblivion. Instead, you are watching the wind, listening to the sound of the rigging, and fighting to keep your head on course. "

First of all, how in the blazin' Davy did Captain Jack Aubrey manage to make all sail in a storm while rounding the Horn in pursuit of the Acheron?

Secondly, it's called BROACHING.

Barret Bonden: She's broaching! We're losing her!

<img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/keith.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":keith" border="0" alt="keith.gif" /> methinks you need to study up a bit more... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bookish.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":mm" border="0" alt="bookish.gif" />
 
"First of all, how in the blazin' Davy did Captain Jack Aubrey manage to make all sail in a storm while rounding the Horn in pursuit of the Acheron?

Secondly, it's called BROACHING.

Barret Bonden: She's broaching! We're losing her!"

Um. I sure hope you're being facetious here, and not seriously holding up works of fiction as your standard of historical "research." IRL you really did have to keep the swells on your stern, which is why ships tended to "run before the wind" with only a spritsail out in bad storms. Of course there are various degress of severe weather, and we what we landlubbers would percieve as a terrible storm might be seen by experienced sailors as only moderately bad weather.

Have any more realism improvements been put in Build 12 (like limiting the elevation/traversing ranges for the guns)?
 
That, yes. You can tweak it in BuildSettings.h (I think right now it's 0.5 normal, you can decrease it further).

However, that's the only thing new.
Well, besides overhauling sailto implementation to use the RS engine for speed/time calcs.
 
<!--`QuoteBegin-jmv575`+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jmv575)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hello All:

I was talking to Nathan about making the Realistic Sailing more realistic and he thought this should be a main thread.  So, I'd like to present some ideas on things that could be added to make it all more realistic.  If you some ideas of your own, write 'em down and perhaps we can all come up with some solutions.

[/quote]

I think PoTC isn´t any simulator and it is slow enough against Sea Dogs for example. Sometimes it seemed to me too slow although it would be a little unrealistic. When it would be even slower it would be quite boredom. I know this game quite well I played it several times with older mods. Do you know why Sea Dogs is so good and entertaing game? Because it is very fast in the case of using its turbo mod. I think If you would like some simulation you should better look for something another. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />
 
Ah, yes, hello again Rad.

That's why there's the choice for Arcade Mode in POTC. If you prefer an arcade game, that's fine; nobody's suggesting you be forced to use realistic mode...
 
<!--`QuoteBegin-jmv575`+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jmv575)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Encounter Distance:
Currently, you need only be 500 yards from an enemy to "escape to sea."  500 yards is a little low considering in `real-life` an 18pdr could penetrate 2 feet of oak at 1300 yards.  500 yards is still very much in the danger zone.  By increasing the distance to 2000 yards, however, the strategic situations of the game are more realistic and exhilarating. The simple maneuvers we all know to gain those extra 100 yards against a faster ship no longer work.  Instead, we must run and be deadly efficient with our stern chasers to damage rigging or carry away a mast.  Running, is now more intense, takes longer, and requires a sharp eye on the wind, and a deep understanding of how your particular ship handles.  
[/quote]

This all sounds good but to set a set distance would not be realistic either maybe the ai can determine the range of the foes cannons and factor in the ship speeds (yours and theirs) some times it may not be possible to escape to sea and you are forced to fight if you cannot out run them or out gun them then by god board them. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dev.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":d:" border="0" alt="dev.gif" />
 
<!--`QuoteBegin-Cdre`. Will Wallace+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cdre. Will Wallace)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->

First of all, how in the blazin' Davy did Captain Jack Aubrey manage to make all sail in a storm while rounding the Horn in pursuit of the Acheron?

[/quote]

Well if you are referring to the movie. Captain Jack Aubrey didn't succeed he lost the top part of one of his mast. Which then was dragging his ship down. And he had to cut it lose and give up the chase. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bookish.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":mm" border="0" alt="bookish.gif" />
 
<!--`QuoteBegin-NathanKell`+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NathanKell)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ah, yes, hello again Rad.

That's why there's the choice for Arcade Mode in POTC. If you prefer an arcade game, that's fine; nobody's suggesting you be forced to use realistic mode...[/quote]

Do you still remeber me Nathan ? It´s good to see hallo from you again. Thank you. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
 
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