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Ships' speed and weatherliness in the new build

`Sigma-6`

Landlubber
I'm not sure if it's common knowledge here, but in the new build the British ships are faster and more weatherly than the French ships.

This is very inaccurate for a number of reasons:

The British built ships from draughts, left the construction of the ships to the dockyard. This resulted in a general concept of a ship's 'lines' being interpreted by several authorities, and the tendency was for ships (including Slade's Victory) to be asymmetrical and oddly ballasted. Also, the
British built ships (With the exception of Thomas Slade himself) that were broad fore and aft and generally more concerned with the weight of the broadside than the speed of the vessel. Also, in England, surprising as it may seem, the shipbuilders and designers were usually quite out of touch with the forces acting on ships at sea, which were well known by seamen. British ships were usually quite good regardless, but they were never as fast as French ships.

Dutch ships, for example, were designed with shallow draughts to navigate the shoals along the coasts of the Low Countries, and as such, they had a tendency to gain leeway (get blown downwind) when closehauled and miss stays while tacking. (they were too shallow to 'bite' into the water.)

Examples of the `well-known` superiority of French designs over all other nations' are HMS Superb, who was a `74-gun` 3rd rate which performed 'like a Frigate'. Superb was originally Le Superbe of the French Navy, and she was the envy of the British fleet after her capture. In fact, she was so well liked that when she fought at Trafalgar, she was so old that she had been braced with Iron to prevent her hull from falling apart. The RN had simply refused to part with her until she could no longer float. Other examples are HMS Surprise (made famous by O'Brian) and various other French Frigates. It was common for English ships which were expected to outperform opposing vessels to find themselves run down by `well-handled` French Lineships which, when well handled, sailed faster, came up closer to the wind, and needed to carry less sail.


The problem in the Napoleonic Wars was that the French had no good crews or officers left after the Revolution, so while they continued to build superb ships, they crewed them poorly and, of course, their gunnery was poor.

Please, for the sake of history, make the French ships in the build faster and more weatherly than the British. It would be so much more fun; especially when trying to capture a French Vessel. The British ships should be the *second* best in the game, as it was in reality; regardless of the superior seamanship of the British sailor.
 
:cheers There matey! :cheeky <yes im the first one to greet this booty pirate! :d: > ****AHEM**** nothing matey,Nothing im very very fine well :cheers there :p: ,dont worry your question will be answered :cheers :cheeky
 
hmm sounds very logical to me.........quite a good idea...i think what can be improved on this idea is that at different ports you can buy different ships like at falaise de fleur u can buy french ships while at redmond and oxbay u can buy british ships so on so forth get my drift?
 
Derlorean said:
hmm sounds very logical to me.........quite a good idea...i think what can be improved on this idea is that at different ports you can buy different ships like at falaise de fleur u can buy french ships while at redmond and oxbay u can buy british ships so on so forth get my drift?

That already happens as almost all of the ships have got different stats for each nation. So if you buy a Lugger from Redmond it will have different stats from an identical ship you buy from Falaise De Fleur.
 
:cheeky `Sigma-6`, and welcome aboard! Pull up a keg, have a seat, and have a couple on us! :cheers

I think there are people working on a more historically accurate representation of ships (through a new ship's system) already - and they may be well aware of these problems in PotC...

Your posting is informative and very interesting, and hopefully some of those people will see it and take note! :cheers :d:

Again, welcome aboard, and it looks like we've got another historian loose in here! All to the good!!! :cheers
 
Also, another thing that bugs me is the predominance of 'bombs'.

A little thought would clear up the question of why nobody ever used 'bombs' historically.

Think about it. A typical ship's gun in combat is going to fire (with a good gun crew) every minute and a half, and it's going to continue doing that for up to six hours (most `ship-to`-ship combat in this era took hours to complete).

After the first ten or twenty minutes the barrels get extremely hot, and as such, the guns start to jump and kick wildly when fired. The hot barrels also require the guns to be wormed and sponged out very carefully to wet any burning wadding and any powder remaining in the barrel so that when the next charge goes in, it's not ignited prematurely, blowing off the rammer's hands. Also, with a hot gun, there was a tendency for charges to be ignited (rare, however) simply due to the heat of the barrel. In a case like this, it was not uncommon to have a ramrod fired from the gun with the charge. People have, indeed, been skewered by flying ramrods.

Given these conditions, is it logical to fill a ball with powder, light a fuse on it, and then ram it into a barrel with a live powder charge?

NO.

You'd blow up your guns and kill your crew.

That is why historically, the things called 'bombs' in POTC did not exist.

There were two things that *did* exist however, that vaguely resemble them.

1. Grenades. Marines had Grenades. hollow iron balls with a hole for a fuse filled with powder. These were thrown by hand.

2. Mortar Bombs. Bomb Vessels or Bomb Ketches (depending on the rig) carried giant mortars, huge guns with a very short barrel (they looked like bowls) which fired at a high angle used for 'bombardment'. The mortar bombs fired by these ships, which only mounted two or three of these huge guns due to their massive size) were giant hollow iron balls filled with powder and with slow match fuses. This was the only scale at which bombs were practical historically, and the only place where they were ever used.

There are no bomb ketches in POTC. (though if there's a way to import new models, there's no reason why there couldn't be. . . I'd love to model one. . .)

Personally, I think the bombs should be done away with completely and replaced with doubleshot.

Doubleshot is when you take two balls and load them instead of one. This causes twice the devastation onboard the enemy ship, but only works at close range.
 
Oh, Hey Catalina, you must have posted just as I did. . .

Thanks for the welcome. . .

Yeah, history is kind of a hobby of mine. . . Also, I'm a texturer and modeler, and I've done a few of my own POTC configging and texturing bits; just for my own use. I actually have a pretty good Frigate model, based on HMS Shannon, that I'd like to add to POTC. . . Does anyone know if there's a Maya or MAX importer for POTC yet? Something that will allow modders to add new ship models and set the models up properly with mast points and gun points, etc?
 
`Sigma-6` said:
Given these conditions, is it logical to fill a ball with powder, light a fuse on it, and then ram it into a barrel with a live powder charge?

I believe that the bomb's fuse was never lit before being put into the cannon, it was the firing of the cannon that lit the fuse. At least that's what happens during the Sharpe novels and they were set on land and about 150 years later then the game but the priciple was the same.

Bombs almost certainly weren't used at sea during the time that the game was set. So they could be removed from the game, but not everyone would want them removed. The old SD1 game also had bombs and I don't believe that the modders for tham removed them from the game.


It was also possible for cannons to be doubleshotted with grapeshot or with a ball and grapeshot at the same time as well as two balls.

It might be possible to "replace" the Bombs in game with something called Doubleshot.
The easiest way to change this is to replace every reference to Bomb with the word Doubleshot. It would mean that there is special Doubleshot ammo instead of using a ball and grape per shot as that would be a lot of coding.
 
In the Sharpe novels, they were firing Mortars if they were firing 'Bombs'.

The exception to that would be if they were firing Howitzers, invented long, long after POTC (though used to great effect on land during the Napoleonic Era, when Cornwell's Sharpe is set), and a howitzer shell is still a completely different concept from a Cannon round; it's different kind of gun, a different kind of barrel, and a different kind of round. In that case, yes, it's the ignition of the powder charge that lights the fuse, but in the case of a mortar, the more control you have over the fuse's length, the type of match, and the time the round is fired, the better. Note, of course, that Howitzers were never mounted on ships during the age of sail.

In any case, Bombs are anachronistic in POTC. I would change your 'almost certainly to a 'definitely were not', because they were never used at sea (or even on land in that context). If what they do in POTC had been possible in reality, a lot of battles would have gone very differently. Doubleshot (or Trebleshot :cheers ) would be much, much better; and much more in harmony with the era.
 
Also, another thing that bugs me is the predominance of 'bombs'.

A little thought would clear up the question of why nobody ever used 'bombs' historically.

Think about it. A typical ship's gun in combat is going to fire (with a good gun crew) every minute and a half, and it's going to continue doing that for up to six hours (most `ship-to`-ship combat in this era took hours to complete).

hey mate! nice ta have ya aboard! well anyway, this is how I use the bombs. i sell them all, then i get into a battle, the bombs seem to ALWAYS be loaded, so if i dont have bombs, my cannons arent loaded, making it realistic for you would never have ur cannons loaded ALL THE TIME. so every time there is a battle, i HAVE to load my cannons, the bomb slot for my ship is just a mere "empty cannons" thing so its realistic! :cheers :cheeky
 
Sirus_Darke said:
Derlorean said:
hmm sounds very logical to me.........quite a good idea...i think what can be improved on this idea is that at different ports you can buy different ships like at falaise de fleur u can buy french ships while at redmond and oxbay u can buy british ships so on so forth get my drift?

That already happens as almost all of the ships have got different stats for each nation. So if you buy a Lugger from Redmond it will have different stats from an identical ship you buy from Falaise De Fleur.

hmm i never seemed to notice i always wondered why my battleship had 1500hp and 1200 hp...now i know...i thought it was rare occurence...thanks

Another Logical idea...gd job...i had always thought the bombs were illogical(i know i love the word logical)....but i have no reason with anyone to argue with them about it i haven't studied much about the ship battles of those periods so i will just watch....

since this is revolving about ships may i ask if it is possible to mod into potc a ship having more then one type of cannon?
 
CaptJackSparrow said:
i HAVE to load my cannons, the bomb slot for my ship is just a mere "empty cannons" thing so its realistic! :cheers :cheers

Yeah, except that all your enemies are still shooting bombs at you, so it isn't realistic. . . :cheers

:cheeky
 
I agree with all sigma's points, but if bombs are to be replaced, then the damage stats of current rounds should be remodelled... can you imagine fighting the Black Pearl at the end of the game with the weak Potc standard cannonballs? :dio
 
i agree i think bombs should be done away with and double shot replace them and of course the stats should be recalculated.
 
`Sigma-6` said:
Yeah, except that all your enemies are still shooting bombs at you, so it isn't realistic. . .
Y'know, I've found a lot of times when encountering an enemy that they may be firing grapeshot... They're not always loaded with bombs!

This subject has been talked about quite a lot - the idea of bombs - and I've always thought, well, if you don't want to use bombs, don't buy them, don't keep them if you have any...

But I like the "doubleshot" idea, that would be cool... I think if you replaced the word "Bombs" with "Doubleshot", that would be simple enough, except that I also think you would have to decrease the original range of the bombs to make up for the doubleshot... :? :cheers
 
there was someone on Elaybe werk'n on doubleshot fer cannons,had some succeess wid it,can't remember who? :?
 
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