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The Fighting System

Thomas the Terror

Thomas the Terror

Mad Pirate
Storm Modder
Pirate Legend
I would like to have a variate arsenal of weapons. You should be able to wield rapier and dagger, or musket and bayonet or two axes. With such possibilities you have much more choice in how to play the game. In POTC it is just choosing a sword and then start hacking.
 
That'd be interesting too, especially if different combinations would give different gameplay styles.

Did anybody ever play Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb? See a <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rabn5wV1uJE&feature=related" target="_blank">trailer here</a>.
I don't think that game was incredibly succesful, but I liked it a lot. One of the few games I actually completed.
Of course I am also a huge Indiana Jones fan, and therefore rather biased, but it was fun.

The gameplay mainly consisted of beating up your enemies and shooting at them every now and then.
It was rather unrealistic and at one point I actually killed all the Germans in a courtyard without firing a single shot while they all had sub-machine guns on the highest difficuly setting.

But that aside, the reason why I bring it up is because of the controls that seemed to work pretty well to me.
The left mouse button controlled your left fist and your right mouse button controlled your right fist.
Then depending on whichever weapon combination you were having equipped and depending on your present position relative to your enemy, you would perform a different action.

You could press left-mouse, right-mouse, left-mouse with no weapon equipped and you'd just beat up your enemy.
On the other hand, you could press both mouse buttons at once and grab hold of your enemy and then slap him in the face with the right mouse button.
Or you kick him in the groin by pressing "forward".

Then when you'd have a pistol equipped, you could shoot at enemies with the left mouse button and slap them in the face with the gun in your hand when pressing the right mouse button.
If you have your whip equipped, you can either whip your enemy with left, grab hold of your enemy and pull him towards you by keeping the left button pressed and then letting go and pressing again to kick him away again. Or you'd use the right mouse button and again slap your enemy with your whip in your hand.

I'm wondering if the above could somehow translate to some more fast-paced swordfighting with interesting weapon combinations available.
Swordfighting where there's different buttons available for a "high" or "low" and you have to choose which one to use, seems to me to be fairly annoying. First of all, the controls are most likely not intuitive and in a fight, you don't really have time to consider which button to press.
I could also imagine you wouldn't be able to really judge your enemy's next move, which would also complicate matters.

Of course the gameplay should also have a major strategic element, based on making the correct moves at the correct time and also taking your skills and equipped weapons into account, but I figured maybe it'd offer you some food for thought.

Also, I would really like to have real freedom in the game on where to go and how to go there.
This would imply being able to jump and climb during the fights, especially when aboard an enemy ship.

Of course the above suggests more adventure/"beat 'm up"-style gameplay than RPG gameplay, but personally I wouldn't mind a bit of that.
Fighting in RPG style games always seems to me to be a bit tricky. It's either turn-based or fairly slow and limited anyway, which might put off many players.
I would love an open-ended RPG/adventure combo with lots of options and interesting storylines available!
 
What would you people think of more action-based fighting system in a pirate RPG?
 
the actually fight system is more than boring.
the game needs a new one.

for example:
Character choice=Pirate - Weapon=Cultass - Fighting=Raw/Brutal
Character choice=Officer - Weapon=Rapier - Fighting=Elegance
and so on.

Of course you must active block a enemy attack, with first and second weapon.
Attack with two weapons would be fine, like TwoWorld. perhaps something like a special move/attack or counter attack would be awesome.
 
I'm wondering... what if the fight system would allow things like "jumping", "climbing" and "using the environment"?
Could make things more piratey and interesting to "the regular audience".
 
Aye, I'd like to see a much more extensive combat system that just 1 sword and 1 gun. I'd like to have a choice of weapons, the ability to dual wield. More choices for weapons.

More attack types and a system to allow for combo attacks would be kind of cool as well.

I'd also like all ready weapons to show up on the Avatar, so you can see what an opponent is using just by looking.

I realize that sort of exists now, but I'd really like everything to be more involving and with even better graphics.

Cap'n Drow
 
Although I regret ever buying AoP, I did like the fencing system. If that could be made a double like your'e talking about Drow, it would be just great for me, nothing more. This is achievable, but would require additional animations for all characters.


No matter what, I think the system should be limited by a numer of slots, so you dont have 2 pistols and 2 swords slying in the air at once.
 
As far as I'm concerned, I don't see too much of a problem with the number of weapons you can use at any time.
You've only got two hands anyway. But somehow the fighting in PotC at least doesn't strike me as being very exciting or action-packed and might put people off. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shrug" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" />
 
Players want to have choices. Some folks like to fight sword & buckler/shield, others will want to fight sword & daggers, others will want a big fat boarding axe. And almost no matter what other melee choices we have, everyone will have their own preferences and ideas of what a proper gun or set of guns would be.

We will want to be able to give the players as many choices as is humanly possible.

I would also like to see a wide range of attack and defensive options, including special attacks, combo attacks and various special defenses.

Cap'n Drow
 
I agree with you Pieter, I think it would be great to be able to interact with the ship environment more. Grabbing a belaying pin and smacking your enemy with it would be awesome! Or climbing the rigging and using pistol and musket shots to pick off a couple of bad guys, then cut a couple of ropes and swing down into the action on deck! That would be freakin cool! one thing I never liked about the boarding was it felt to much like a static environment when your were on deck. I do like what they did with CoAS though, being able to go back and forth between both ships is pretty cool.
 
Indiana Jones style fast-paced fighting with swords and pistols usable at the same time.
And climbing, jumping and swinging too. Fight in the rigging, etc. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

<!--quoteo(post=329693:date=Jun 16 2009, 09:50 PM:name=Thagarr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thagarr @ Jun 16 2009, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=329693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with you Pieter, I think it would be great to be able to interact with the ship environment more. Grabbing a belaying pin and smacking your enemy with it would be awesome! Or climbing the rigging and using pistol and musket shots to pick off a couple of bad guys, then cut a couple of ropes and swing down into the action on deck! That would be freakin cool!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Haha; exactly! I'd like the fights to be more film-like. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

<!--quoteo(post=329693:date=Jun 16 2009, 09:50 PM:name=Thagarr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thagarr @ Jun 16 2009, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=329693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->one thing I never liked about the boarding was it felt to much like a static environment when your were on deck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Indeed; it looks like a ship-to-ship boarding, but it might as well be on land for all it matters.

<!--quoteo(post=329693:date=Jun 16 2009, 09:50 PM:name=Thagarr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thagarr @ Jun 16 2009, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=329693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do like what they did with CoAS though, being able to go back and forth between both ships is pretty cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sounds interesting. I have yet to try out CoAS though. Do you have any more information on that?
 
in CoAS, the ships are side by side, most of the time there is a big hole in the deck allowing you to move from one ship to the other. I have seen a couple of occasions where there two planks ran up the side of each ship as well, making kind of a set of steps allowing you to cross over the railing. I am stunned that you still don't have access to this game Pieter! I know there are several things your going to like about CoAS!! The ending to the Peter Blood opening is almost classic Hollywood!
 
Oh; THAT's what you mean! Yeah, I know those deck models. Have known them for a long time too. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />
The game appears to be not particularly available in the Netherlands as of yet. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />
 
I thought I had seen that some where before! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="xD:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> I also liked having to fight your way down through multiple decks, instead of just the main deck. They did keep some of those decks in CoAS too, but mainly for crew interaction when you are on your own ship.

You should set yourself up a Paypall account Pieter, that way you could use that to order a copy of the game from Ebay or Amazon and use a bank account to pay for it, without having to use a credit card. You do have to use a credit card to initially set up a Paypal account though, but it is very secure, I have been using it for years without a single problem. they make a small charge to your credit card just to make sure it is valid, and then immediately credit that small amount back to your card. There is no actual fee for using Paypal unless you use it for business purposes, or by a LOT of stuff every month.
 
I'm planning to seriously look into buying the game once I'm done with my education in a couple of weeks. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />
 
Here comes my brainstorming....
Different weapons, weight and balance means different combat strategy/actions for each one... so different animations used depending on which kind of weapon you´re using. Right now they all feel the same only changes a little the speed and the damage dealed, but nothing else more... too plain.

*Using a rapier (light weapon) means that your style will be fast combat, but the heavy-swing is non-sense because the rapier is designed to piercing attacks, not slashing... damage reduction on slashing attacks (even the impossibility to use the heavy-swing) and damage bonus on piercing attacks(maybe criticals?). Also the parry system would be easier with light weapons, best against medium weapons due to the tactical advantage of speed but against heavy weapons not parry option (unless you succesfully get out of the way of the heavy-slash), so can consume energy (and even consume energy and the posibility of some backward-step/recoil due to the push of a heavy attack, but only when receiving a heavy attack of a heavy weapon, because a rapier can´t stop an axe heavy-chop).
*Using a saber (medium weapon) means that your style is some balanced, you can acces all the attack and defense movements, so you can slash, pierce and try heavy_swings... no damage reduction on slashing (neither bonus) and little damage bonus for piercing (a half or a third from the bonus of piercing attacks from light weapons). For defense will be a balanced option too, it can counter/defend against the fastest attacks (if timed right because of the speed of it), counter/defend the normal slashing attacks (little swords clashing anim for both fighters on such ocasions would be gorgeous) and can deflect a heavy-swing of a heavy weapon, but consuming some energy and stamina too.
*Using a Zwei-hander or an axe (heavy-weapon) means that your style is focused on strength and physical power. No piercing attacks available, only the slashing attacks and the devasting heavy-swing. Bad for defending against fast attacks of light weapons, they can disrupt your heavy-swing but not your slashing attacks due to inertia, getting hit when you´re lifting the weapon for a chop means that you´re gonna react for the pain and your weapon can fall down, disabling all the heavy-swing maneuver, getting hit when slashing from side to side hurts too, but inertia bring your weapon mainlyto the same side as intended due to inertia, so the medium slash attack must not be disrupted by a light-medium weapons attack but can be disrupted by a parry, of course. For defense it should be the only weapon that can parry unharmed another heavy weapon heavy-swing. Can parry medium weapons slashing attacks but against piercing attacks no deffense possible, maybe some damage reduction while blocking but a fast thrust can penetrate easily the defense of a heavy weapon so any fast thrusting attack will deal damage.

For Guns and Muskets.... we need aiming not maths... some kind of crosshair appearing when the animation of shooting starts (and disappearing when the shoot has been made) would be great. RPG elements can be used to calculate ¿deflection? (is that the word?) so a character with low pistols skill will tend to miss shoots.. well, not totally miss, if you´re lucky and there´s another enemy in the defelcted trajectory of the bullet that enemy will take the damage, of course. The type of gun must set the max deflection of the bullet, so more accuracy for muskets and good pistols, and bad accuracy for bad pistols... Scatter pistols are another thing to consider and damage must be depending on the range of the target.

It´s a first impression of how combat reactions should be... yep, it looks complicated.
About movements I´ll write later, now I must go for a dinner with friends... See you later!

<b>BEST REGARDS</b>
 
Well, here's my slightly incoherent thoughts on the matter.

A lot of good ideas in this thead, but perhaps too many. If I may, a combat system needs to be first and foremost intuitive, which I'm afraid the current COAS isn't. Shift+click to perform a parry? Seriously?

Another problem with it is that the fights are very crowded and very often your character decides to attack a different enemy than you intend. I don't think this can be corrected in any other way than by reducing the number of enemies and designing the areas and AI in such a way that you never fight more than one or two at a time if it can be at all helped.

I really like Pieter's description of the Indy fighting system, it reminds me a lot of a few other games that used a very similar system where you equip two weapons, one in each hand, and fire or swing them with the respective mouse buttons. I really like that approach, very flexible, very intuitive. I'd also say fights ought to be a lot slower and more technical. Less button mashing and more tactics.
Look at Mount and Blade. Very successful indie game that has an extremely intuitive combat system with only four different attacks. You hold the left mouse button and move the mouse in one of the four directions, the character performs the corresponding attack. You block the same way with the right mouse button, or simply with just the button without mouse movement. You can interrupt your own attack by pressing the block button, allowing you to feint and get around the enemy's block. Very simple, very intuitive, <i>very</i> fun. I'd love to see something similar in a pirate game.
For bows, you hold the mouse button, the character draws the bow. You release, he releases the arrow. Could work beautifully for pistols. You press the button, character draws the gun and takes aim, a crosshair is shown for as long as you hold the button down, when you release the character fires and puts the gun away.

Dual wielding... could work, I think. See, how about two weapon slots, one for each hand, with the ability to draw or put away weapons with the Q and E keys. In your right you could put a sword or a pistol, and in your left you could put a pistol, a dagger, o a buckler. You could shoot your pistols as described above with the left or right mouse buttons, if you have a sword drawn you would be able to attack and parry also as described above, perhaps with a stab if you just click the attack button without specifying direction. If you dual wield, you would still fight the same, but a short right click would perform a special action depending on what you have equipped in the off-hand (parry for a buckler, stab for a dagger, or punch if you have and empty hand).
 
I´ve read deeply the other threads and I rushed too much my first thoughts.... the impatience winned this time. All the post was about how the actual CoAS fighting mode can be better.... different game engine = different considerations.... so, I said nothing <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

<b>BEST REGARDS</b>
 
want to make combat exciting make the combat real like bushido blade on ps1 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> that game was so real to sword fighting noone bought it but me and handful of people loved that game lol, impossibly hard, timing was key and no matter how good you were one mistimed strike, parry or dodge you were done. miyamoto musashi himself probably would have approved of bushido blade 1.

people want over the top captain blood stuff i think but that is not what these games are about i hope, but i do not think shields were very popular in this time period, heck armor was probably dubious since guns would pierce any armor of the time.
 
Insanely hard gameplay is not going to make the game very popular though. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

For guns... maybe make them not so common? One gun shot can tak out a person in real life, especially when well-aimed.
Would be really annoying if that happened to the main character. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />

I like Sordid's fighting description too. Indee sounds a bit like the Indiana Jones game.
Though in that game, there were a whole bunch of attacks available based also on your position relative to the enemy.
In any case, it worked very intuitive and was fun. But not very hard or challenging,
because enemies would be inclined not to attack you while you were beating up one of their friends. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

The one thing I do think would work is just more freedom in movement. In PotC and probably AoP and CoAS too,
the fighting just isn't very action-packed at all. Might be good for RPG games, but I don't think too many people will buy a pirate RPG even if it IS good.
Sure there can be RPG elements, but there needs to be some action too. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shrug" border="0" alt="dunno.gif" />
 
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