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Too far on the canon modification?

Radrunner

Powder Monkey
I turned tactical battles on to give it a try, see how things are...

By and large, I don't mind it. Lot sof canon fire, very long encounters to whittle the enemy down enough to board them, and it's nearly impossible to sink a ship with canons... which is the problem

I had four ships blasting away at a a pirate YACHT. Not just four ships, the nearby fort with its 204 guns joined and. Collectively, there were probably about 350 canons blasting away at a pirate yacht that couldn't move since it was stuck against the cliffs. 15 minutes in and the only noticeable damage was to the crew and sails.

I wouldn't classify this as a bug, but I have the suspicion that alot of the modding was done with dynamic battles turned on... i'm not sure how well the mod works with the tactical setting.

Something to consider...
 
I can't see that happening since it was tested (a MOW with 102 guns was used for the intire games testing) The MOW could sink all sjips with 1 or 2 broadsides, if your playing with RTBL on then thats why and this is why the switch between RTBL and stock was put in, so those who liked the quicker battles could choose the stock settings and by default the game is set to use the stock settings. As in real life the higher your calibure the quicker you will sink a ship and i know it works because i play with RTBL on and was sailing the Couronne which has 64 guns, i had recently purchased and mounted 28Ibs cannons and a few game months later engeged in a battle between the English and the Dutch. The Dutch was had 4 Fleut's Of War while the English had a mix of ships that i can't remember the names of, anyway i sank 2 of those Fluet's Of War after about 10 or so broadsides of bomb shots each. If i can do that with RTB on then i'm sure with stock settings no one will have any problems sinking other ships. In fact this is the first i've heard of problems where sinking ships has been said, everyone will remember CMV3.1.5 with its problems for the naval battles, because i like the slower battles i can see who quick it takes to windal a ship down with stock ssettings on. a single braodside from a MOW using grapeshots can almost wipe the intire crew out of a MOW at close range of course. 1 or 2 braodsides from close range using knippleshots fired at the right moment can take 1 to 2 masts down and any 1st rate ship. A single broadside from a MOW at close range will certainly damage any ship if not sink them.

The idea of tall ships is for close battles, one reason for the amount of gun calibures been reduced was because the further away from your target the less damage you will deliver to that ship and the more shots you'll waste trying to damage those targets. This has again been changed in GOF so that no gun calibure can fire further than 1000 yards apart from the 92Ibs cannons which are for forts only and can't be purchased. Turning tactical setting on is not part of the mod, that is stock and what it effects has never been changed, the things that changes battles settings RTBL is a switch you can turn on or off before starting a new game. In fact i'm sure you can turn that on or off as you please with the reinit button because it reinits all the files the code is in fr it, the same with reload times. My advice is check in _Mods_On_Off and see if RTBL is set to 0 or 1, if its set to 1 then change it to 0 and save the changes. open options and use the reinit button to update the game, if you have a small calibure mounted ie, 4, 8, 12Ibs cannons then that will be why it takes so long in battles. A few things to take into account about the battles.

1. Calibure of gun mounted (this will make a huge difference and its clear to see with both stock or RTBL switched on)

2. Gun type mounted (cannons and culverines do have differences, cannons do higher damage but culverines have a larger hit radius, for pure damage cannons are the better choice because a 4Ibs culverine will not damage a ship as much as a 4Ibs cannon, this was how it was set in the stock game too)

3. Use of shot types (each shot type has its reasons, bombs are the best all round shot type as they will damage the hull, kill the crew and damage the sails but grapeshot is the best shot type to use to kill the crew, knipple shots are better at damaging the sails and round shot is for the hulls. Use the shot types for the right reasons and you will soon be sinking ships).

4. Gun range (just because you can hit a targte some 600 yards out doesn't mean it should be used to that advantage. The further away from your enemey the less damage you will do to the ship)

5. Skills (your skills are very important factor in battles, aim and target are the most important ones for the guns and if they are low you will hardly hit anything even at a close range, building these skills up will make huge differences as will getting all the gunnery perks. Having a officer with good gunnery skills will help but its still a good idea to build your own skills up).


A lot of work went into this and weeks of testing was down after it was finished, we know their are no problems here. Tactical will only change the way the game reads the wind, ie if it takes the wind speed and direction into account or not. With tactical on then it does take those into account and you will find yourself sailing very slowly when the wind is against you compared to how it would have been if you had choosen arcade where no matter which way you sailed you was never effected by the wind speed or the direction the wind was blowing in. In fact i've started thinking RTBL is a little to easy to sink ships, once you start getting those gun perks with RTBL on the game starts becoming less tactical because a few broadsides from grapeshots and your able to weaken the enemy ships crew enough to drastically reduce the chances of them boarding you which allows you to get closer to them and deliver the heavy blows that will see her visit Davy Jones.
 
I f you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. thats my take anyway.
thwalkplank.gif


Feel free to spend hours of work on editing code to help us out. Or something useful.
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I've been playing tactical the whole time. It does seem to take a while to sink ships, but this is more a matter of not all your balls are going to hit a far away target. Peter Blood's frigate sinks any ship pretty quickly if I can get it close enough, but even then I don't have to get that close.

I suppose I should start another game and try out dynamic battles. So far I have no problem with the tactical ones, though.
 
The more skill points you and your officers/crew pick up and the higher your level, the more accurate and deadly you become. Yeah it's very hard at the beginning, but when you get to level 20 or 30+ you'll be thankful for RTBL numbers, because otherwise it'd be boring as hell sinking ships/killing crews with one broadside every time and practically invincible yourself. RTBL adds both realism and levels out the playing field. :D

It's creator Luke159, and those of us that helped to tweak the numbers and test it with him, will do nothing but sing it's praises forevermore. So if someone complains about it, I just stick my fingers in my ears and sing "laa laa - la la la la - laaaaaa!!!! can't hear you, la la la, not listening, la. :walkplank :whipa :razz

Remember as the cannon/gunnery manual states in 3.2, your balls are indeed important. :boom :shoot:

Appreciate the kind words and validation Siadhail. :onya :2up

Hose in your mouth... :mi

MK
 
Thank you MK. :onya

O can't imagine playing COAS with stock settings any more, RTBL was created for the sole reason of vanilla naval battle as you rightfully pointed out quickly became boring. At the start it was challenging because you couldn't risk been courght by the broadsides of enemy ships other wise you would loose many crewmen which you couldn't afford to loose or replace. But once you hired yourself a officer with decent gunnery skills you was able to get some deadly shots off and build your own gunnery skills up, after your gunnery skills hit 50 or so you was almost unstapable and when you maxed your gunnery skills out you was invisible with a single broadside of grapeshot wipping out a ships crew and then boarding it. The tactical side of the naval battles was gone, i don't try to force RTBL on anyone they either like it or they don't. For the first time in any combined mod we have the switch for RTBL and stock settings allowing the person to choose which they want to use. I suggest to those who haven't played COAS or played with RTBL to play a few day's with stock settings and when you get bored of sinking ships try it with RTBL and you will then know which style you like the most.

RTBL isn't fully finished yet but its getting their, both stock and RTBL have their differences and offer something to the player's. Stock settings will mean you have to be more carefull early on but once your able to fight back you'll find yourself capturing all ships or sinking them very fast, RTBL offer's a slow naval battle with a more tactical side to it. I've had many great battles and almost had a recreation of the battle of trafalgar but rather than the Victory sitting totally demasted in the centre of the battle it was a Lineship with Frigates all over the place. If i had been playing with stock settings on i would have captured or sunk most of the ships myself due to my characters level in gunnery and his perks. The officer's i had was almost maxed out aswell, with RTBL the battle felt right it didn't take end in a matter of minutes and i was alway's waiting to see if the Lineship was going to get a volly of chainshots off at me since thats what she had loaded for most of the battle. The battle report is pr was some where on this forum, as are all the tests we have conducted with RTBL.

Siadhal pointed out a very important thing.

this is more a matter of not all your balls are going to hit a far away target. Peter Blood's frigate sinks any ship pretty quickly if I can get it close enough, but even then I don't have to get that close.

In the age of sails ships lined up in parallel lines and was almost in boarding range of each other, whens the best moment to fire a broadside of knipple shots off when your side by side or when she turns so that her stern or bow is almost facing you revealing more of her canvas for you to hit. In the stock game none of that is taken into account because a single broadside of knipple shots is almost garanteed to damage the sails heavily but RTBL doesn't allow for high sail damage per broadside so you need to take the advantages as they come and the more canvas their is to hit the more damage your going to do to those sails. In real life captains tried to aviod showing their sterns to the enemy captains because thats the weak point on all ships and a broadside into the stern was almost garanteed to disable her or take out most of the guns and crew, unfortunatelly the game doesn't take into account weaknesses on ships like the stern and neither does RTBL or the stock setting but that been said hitting a ships stern with grapeshots will kill more crew than firing at any other part of the ship. The down side is you need to be close to pull it off, RTBL could have you and your enemy sailsing around for hours trying to take the advantage the stock game will allow that at the start but once your skills are up a little a single broadside can change all of that and then the fun factor goes.

This is why i say using your ammo and the right way will greatly change the odds in your favoure but like in the quoted message from Siadhal, distance i also key. Been to far away means little shots hit their target and those that do will do so little damage it might not be noticable. The with the 204 guns is what got me though because the damage ratio for the forts is very high. They have 92Ibs cannons mounted so thats 204, 92Ibs cannons. Not all of them fire it depends on how many are over looking the enemy ships(s) but even 10 of those guns will do damage to any ships. The damage ratio for a fort is something like 15.0 some 9.5 higher than the 42Ibs cannons which will sink any ships with a single or double broadside at close ish range ie 200 to 300 yards away.

So those never played or liked RTBL from the past i suggest playing the game with the stock settings and then try the game with RTBL because RTBL isn't as heavy as it was in the past. Its had a lot ofchanges to balance it out more and thanks to everyone who has helped with this i think iys almost finished now after some 18 months to 2 years in the making. Tactical and Dynamic settings will not change the settings for stock or RTBL they will do exactly what they did in the stock game and thats take change the way the weather effects your ship.
 
I started a new game again, with RTBL on, tactical battles on and difficulty 1 above the middle. and the result is almost simulation. Perfect and kudos to the team. It is still possible to sink a small ship with gunfire, and with a sea dog crew and good officers almost easy, which is very realistic to care for the crew and officers. As I have said before, the age of sail saw few incidents when gunfire alone sunk a ship of ocean going capabilities. During 3 centuries of naval warfare, no 1st rate ever sank from enemy gunfire, 2-3 blew up from a fire that reached the magazine, and a couple more in storms. Yet there are times when 30 gun frigates sunk from a single broadside of a 1st rate, like in Aboukir. It is very difficult to find the perfect balance in such a game, but I think you guys are close.
 
I think i have found the problems...
-Officers were in high class ships... so skill drop
-Range appears to factor far more in terms of accuracy (most shots missed)
-I was not, and am still not, completely used to the canon calibur balancing.

I've got alot of ranks since this post went up... the "problem" is alot less so.
 
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