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Town Economies

Still digesting this...

What would need to be changed if we did have multiple colonies per island, and multiple colonies per nation?
What would need to be changed if we had persistent fleets? (I.e. goods need to move on an actual fleet, trading not just abstract).
 
<img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_eek.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shock:" border="0" alt="icon_eek.gif" /> WOW! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_eek.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shock:" border="0" alt="icon_eek.gif" /> That's <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/keith.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":keith" border="0" alt="keith.gif" /> incredible! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />
 
Indeed it is! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" />
 
"Introduction to Economy" Pirate - style, a great work <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/me.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":onya" border="0" alt="me.gif" /> . Are you an economics tutor IRL?

As for the essential goods, personally I would include clothes to them, because clothes are described ingame as something like "bundle of cheap, roughly tailored clothing", but that´s a personal point of view.
 
Would be really fun to have some of this implemented and see where it's going.

And special thx to the governor's daughter (wish we could find one for Fred Bob) <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="icon_wink.gif" />
 
Ye be a tryin' tew git ol' Fred Bob hitched thar, Inez? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />
 
I hear ye, NathanKell...it be a lot to take in all at once. Take your time, there are already holes in it that I'm aware of, but it'd be useful if other people caught up first.

Just summarising quickly, adding multiple colonies would allow you to modify certain aspects of the model to make the Caribbean economy more realistic at a cost of needing more time to ensure game balancing...namely:

a) Each individual colony no longer needs to be so robustly self-sufficient.

b) Colonies do not necessarily consume ALL goods. Some of these will be bought for further trading - either to other colonies or to Europe. The effect of this will, again, make the colonies more interdependent.

Additionally, colonies do not necessarily need to demand significant amounts of all goods at every stage of wealthiness. Luxuries such as chocolate would be difficult to sell in struggling towns, for example - however, if there are enough towns in the Caribbean, a major chocolate producer will still have enough potential trade to bring in wealth - it will just be a lot LESS wealth.

c) Gives the opportunity for set colonies (likely larger ones) for each nation acting as major ports for Europe-bound or Europe-arriving vessels. These ports would all, as Jim Hawkins suggested, be major importers of tobacco, sugar, valuable indian artefacts, etc. from the Caribbean and major exporters of said goods to Europe. Likewise, they would have cheaper prices for European imported goods (Maltese swords, etc?), but on account of their wealthiness, they'd probably have higher prices for virtually everything else, especially including essential goods such as sailcloth, rum, etc.

That would also act partly as game balancing, to prevent 'super ports' where it is ideal to sell expensive goods at high prices and buy other expensive goods at cheap prices.

d) Geography would become more important. The most profitable trade routes should probably also be the longest / most dangerous.

e) The overall trading situation would need to be balanced and tested (same as in the original model) to ensure that no one country is naturally inclined to become more wealthy (and, hence, more powerful) than the others unless this is intentional, and balanced in other ways.

====================================================

If trading is not made abstract, and I'd agree with you that this would be more realistic and more fun, then not much needs to be changed at all - in fact, it would tie in rather well with some of the points above.

a) Colonies do not necessarily consume all goods. Some goods in storage will be traded elsewhere, depending on the intended destination of the merchant ship. In the original model, the colonies consume tobacco at an unhealthy rate - in this one, a ship would be created that would export the tobacco EITHER to somewhere else in the Caribbean where prices were higher, OR onwards towards Europe (removing it from the game, provided the ship sails away).

b) A sub-model would be needed to define trade routes. If all trade is actually conducted by the game on the map, then we need to ensure that not all merchants chase after the most profitable routes only, etc. And those that do go on the more dangerous routes are either fast ships that are running their luck, are escorted, or are more capable of defending themselves. Those that undertake short, low-profit runs would be smaller scale ships who'd make a much less attractive target for pirates and, hence, would be less defended.

c) This would depend a lot on the geography of the Caribbean in the model, but 'traders' would fall into several different generic types. I'll try to put down the obvious ones:

1) Short-haul national traders. These would be small ships, Tartanes, Luggers, etc. transporting cheaper goods in smaller quantities. Their trade routes would run only between colonies of their own nation. These traders are not really equipped for conflict, and would either a) avoid the waters of hostile powers, even if that restricts their trading routes or b) not travel more than a certain distance from one colony to another.

For example, short haul traders would happily make the run between St. Kitts, Nevis, Barbados, etc. but would be reluctant to sail all the way west to Port Royale, especially if the Spanish and French were hostile.

2) Short-haul free traders. Again, smaller ships transporting cheaper goods, but not so concerned about where they sell. These would be the backbone of trade in the model, I think. Their trade routes would, again, avoid hostile waters to their nationality and not travel more than certain distances between colonies, although their trade route in total might take them a very long way before they return 'home'.

These traders would be more used to the difficulties of going between different, potentially rival nations. They'd be slightly better able to defend themselves, or flee from a threat.

3) Long-haul national traders. These are your merchantmen or galleons, who are prepared to take on the more valuable trade routes (e.g, getting the sugar from Port Royale's plantations and taking it to be sold in St. Kitts, ready to be shipped to England). These traders would have a long-distance route in mind. It is likely that they would make infrequent stops on their route for re-supply and minor trading where appropriate.

These traders would be mindful of hostilities between nations, but not to the point of avoiding hostile waters. Nor would distance limit their profiteering. These ships would quite possibly have an escort from their home country.

4) Long-haul free traders. These are more likely to be merchantmen than galleons, given the cost required for an independent merchant to acquire and run larger vessels. These ships would ply the main high-value trade routes of the Caribbean, regardless of national ties. For example, Port Royale - Martinique - Trinidad - Curacao - Port Royale.

These traders would be able to afford some kind of escort, or would be mindful enough of their own protection to have large crews and many well-equipped guns. They would be prepared to sail anywhere.

5) Ocean-going traders. These are the ships travelling from Europe to the Caribbean and returning by the same route, mostly of larger classes with powerful escorts. They would only be concerned with stopping at major locations in the Caribbean. The first port of call would see wealth put onto the ships as European goods are sold. The last port of call would see wealth given to the town as the Caribbean goods are bought, ready to be shipped back. The first and last port may be the same place, or these ships might, like the Spanish treasure fleet, make a small circuit of the Caribbean, or stop at one or two ports only, etc.

If they are stopping in multiple places, the first vs last port effect would be spread more evenly over their route.

6) Treasure fleets. These are the tax collecting ships. I'm not sure, historically, quite how they worked. I would assume they only stopped at major ports (for their own safety and, plus, why would you sail frigates to the huts on the Florida Keys?) and expected other towns to leave their taxes there, ready for collection. Small outposts and the like were probably effectively exempt from taxation, as it wouldn't be worth the risk or bother of getting the fleet to pass by.

The treasure fleets would gain wealth along their route and carry only essential goods and maybe one or two items of interest for the European nobility. They would be under very heavy escort at all times. Their wealth would be almost non-existant on arrival, but potentially very great upon departure to Europe (depending on the wealth of the colonies).

7) Smugglers. These despicable denizens of the sea-lanes would use mostly small, fast, heavily-armed ships, used to fending off advances from the coast guard, military, rival smugglers, etc. Their entire purpose is to trade where they were not wanted, escaping local duties and dealing in contraband. Although they may have a 'safe' national port, they are prepared to sail anywhere where the goods that they buy are declared contraband in search of high profit.

Smugglers cause a one-sided trading effect for colonies. Where they buy goods legitimately, that gold is added to the colony. Where they sell them illegally, the cost to the colony of chasing down the smugglers or seeking to punish the buyers, plus the extra crime that such activities would bring about, can be assumed to be equal to the value gained by having those goods in the economy. In other words, the destination point, where the goods are illegal, gains no benefit from the arrival of smugglers - only from what they buy legitimately before they leave.

d) Finally, you'd need to determine if the trade routes are pre-set or if they are to be variable to any degree. Pre-set routes would make for a predictable trading model, but would be effective and ensure that no colony ever became permanently screwed if it was surrounded by hostile waters and too poor to attract large merchants (e.g. Providence), because someone, at least, would trade there. Fixed routes would ensure that, generally, ports which are expected to be wealthy will return to wealthiness steadily over time, even if pillaged. Ports which are expected to be poor will always remain relatively poorer, as fewer traders will go there, even if prospects on paper are good.

Variable routes cause more of a headache, allowing trader classes to select trade routes based on variables such as danger, profitability, distance, nationality, etc. Whilst possibly more realistic, it would make market forces a very powerful game influence. Wrecking the economy of a major port could, potentially, really screw up trade routes. It also makes poor colonies less likely to 'catch up' rich colonies, but would allow the possibility of, for example, the Florida Keys becoming a larger, more bustling port than Havana, given the right leg up and providing coded limits aren't made on a colony's maximum size and wealth.

e) The amount of trade would be dependent on the demand status of any given trade route, limited by the supply available. If there is a market in the Caribbean for a colony's excess goods, it is likely that a trader will take advantage of it. For example, a wealthy colony demanding large amounts of European goods will cause such more traders carrying those goods to travel to them from ports which have them in excess (most likely implemented by the number of traders created on that overall trade route or routes being increased). The maximum amount of trading would occur when there was no more excess remaining in the colony.

Likewise, a fall in demand (e.g. population decline) would cause less traders overall. In this model, traders have perfect information on the market, and will not sail if they realise that there will be no market for their goods when they arrive.

Allowing trading to 'max out' could potentially make the player incapable of trading effectively, so caution would be advised. It'd also start messing with the overall pricing scheme. The closer you get to the maximum desired level of trade, the closer the prices between the two towns get. 'Demand' towns would be given a naturally higher level of demand for a specific good than the Caribbean average, just as 'supply' townd have a naturally higher level of supply. The price difference caused would ensure that trade will always continue, but it is most profitable when the number of merchants is low.

Other influences on the number of merchants include piracy, the amount of hostilities in the caribbean, etc.

f) The above ( e ) really assumes that trade routes are pre-set and that the number of traders in the Caribbean is defined by the trade routes and the status of the towns on them, taking into account any limiting factors. Does that make any sense? Probably not.

For example, assume only Oxbay, Redmond and Douwesan exist. One single trade route between them assumes a 'normal' level of trade of, say, 3 traders, who go from Oxbay to Redmond to Douwesan to Oxbay.

If Redmond grows in size, it will demand more goods from Oxbay. Assuming the merchants do not naturally trade ALL of Oxbay's excess, an extra trader will take the route between Oxbay to Remond. These traders will vanish upon arrival, the rest of the route is unchanged. If the respective countries are at war, one less trader will make the route from Redmond to Douwesan and again, one less from Douwesan on to Oxbay.

The pre-set model doesn't, for example, create Trader Jim Jenkins and follow his trading decisions across the Caribbean. The creation of traders is abstract.

A variable model would do the opposite. A set number of traders would be created in the entire Caribbean based on colony sizes, wealth, war, etc. and distributed amongst the colonies at re-initialisation. These traders would then decide on the best route depending on their class and then take it, and the game would determine where they were and what was happening to them.

Periodically, the status would be re-assessed. If trade prospects are good, a set number of new traders would be created and distributed across the Caribbean accordingly. Up to a certain percent of traders sunk or otherwise waylaid would probably also be replaced at their origin point. The total number of traders would be limited by Caribbean-wide demand and supply (functions of wealth and population size). A minimum number should also be included to prevent over-piracy or war wiping out all trade and messing up the model.

The main problem with this approach is that giving each trader free will requires not only far, FAR more thorough coding and testing for a sensible decision-tree, but also that unless the game is balanced right, bad situations could cause certain colonies to be well and truly kicked while they were down...

On the plus side, merchants would not blindly sail into the player's waiting cannons because "that's where we always go!", and trade will shift across the Caribbean depending on the situation of various colonies. Also, if a memory effect was included into demand and supply (something I was thinking about this morning, as it happens), you could use it to prevent over-trading.

Without going into great detail (ie, I'll think about it more in terms of the original model soon), the idea is that the towns have an idea of their trading status. For example, Oxbay produces Silk which Redmond demands. If the 'normal' level of trade exists between them, Oxbay doesn't pass on all of its excess Silk, Redmond doesn't receive all of the extra Silk that it would be willing to, and the prices between both remain the same.

If more traders ply the route in one economic cycle (e.g, profits on the chocolate route are down), they will take advantage of the profitable price difference. At the end of the cycle, both colonies re-assess the situation. Oxbay knows that demand for its Silk is up (ie, more traders are requesting it), and so it raises the selling price. This is a canny decision as Oxbay 'knows' (ie, we know) that trade is being limited by the merchants' capacity, not by the amount being produced...so, the best way for the storeowner to increase profit is to sell at a higher price, because the traders are going to fill their holds whatever.

Likewise, Redmond realises that more Silk is coming into the colony. Whilst it might not be the most the colony would be prepared to accept, the storeowner will know (ie, we know) that he needs to find a market for all this extra Silk coming into his store, and that more will be on the way. As a result, he lowers his offering price, figuring that the traders will fill their holds whatever and already be on the way, so he can cut a healthy profit.

The memory effect works if the traders decide their trade routes at a point in the economic cycle BEFORE the towns set the new price of goods. The traders will still make money (price changes won't be huge), and will be largely committed to their planned route. At the end of the economic cycle, they'll review the situation. Over time, the profitability of the Silk route will fall, and other routes' profitability will rise, so more traders will be attracted away. At this point, the Silk route will return back towards the original price levels (ie raise its profitability) and so the balance will always be changing.

Memory would be a function of the difference in supply to a demanding colony, or the difference in demand to a supplying colony, on a cycle by cycle basis. If supply rises, price falls - if demand rises, price increases and vice versa.

=====================================================

As you can gather, making ALL trade on-screen would take a lot of implementation. Likewise, you could fix national traders to have set routes whilst free traders changed by market demand and supply, if you wanted to keep things realistic (sorry - should have added that in above, but only thought about it now).

Alternatively, you could 'simulate' trading by spawning merchants carrying the expected trading goods of a given route every so often and deal with the actual effects of trade in the originally proposed abstract manner (ie, colonies only change their wealth when interacting with the player. All things on the map are just 'for show'). I assumed that wasn't really what you wanted to do, so I went into detail. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

Thanks fer the kind words, all. Likewise, I'll also appreciate ruthless and brutal criticism. I know there are bits that could be better implemented, or pitfalls that I'm sure I've missed.

The main pitfall I see with implementation is that its going to be insanely hard to do it all at once, but not particularly easy to do in stages either. I should have a bit o' time this coming week to mess about with the basic demand-supply relationship and see if I can get some figures that'll work for that. Once that's done, everything else can be seen as variables that affect it.

v_Grimmelshausen, I hear what you're saying about clothes - hopefully this explanation will make sense for why clothes are a low-price (hence low profit margin) luxury rather than an essential:

Whilst clothes are an essential good, if they are tagged as being so in-game then they need to have an actual purpose to either the town or the player, otherwise...

Well, take wheat as an example. If you own all of the wheat supply in a town, you could charge the highest prices imaginable and still sell it, because people have to buy it - they can't live without it, its an essential good. The only reason that you can't do that is because if you charge 1,000 gold for a unit of wheat, any trader coming in will happily charge only a gold or two above the normal price, sell his entire cargo and leave you with a lot of wheat and no buyers.

The original model assumed that trading was occuring all the time, AND that you naturally make more of an essential good than you use. This stands to reason - there are always more clothes than there are buyers, large stockpiles of planks and sailcloth and more cannonballs and musketballs in a fort than will be fired in the foreseeable future.

Production of essentials is usually limited by two things: storage and demand spikes. Eventually, excess stored wheat will rot, for example. Also, there's only enough space to store so many of these items before the storekeeper refuses to buy any more. At this point, price starts falling, the excess gets bought up and traded elsewhere.

Demand spikes might happen as a result of this lower price from excess storage, or from unpredictable events. For example, if a new ship is built then planks, sailcloth and cannonballs will all be consumed in a one-off capacity. Likewise, an influx of new immigrants would deplete wheat stocks faster than they were replaced, but after a while the larger population would become self-sufficient (and more) again.

I didn't really mention them much, but artificial (or productive) demand spikes would act as limits on the amount of excess production held in store, to prevent storeholders eventually holding, say, 500,000 wheat and throwing it away at 0 gold.

Now...clothing. If clothing is an essential good that is underproduced, then you get situations such as the one regarding wheat that I initially described - stores will pay truly enormous sums to get their hands on them. If it is underproduced Caribbean-wide, the price will continue to grow and grow and grow. Hence, for game balancing (and since all essentials so far affect either the player or the town, and might make repairs or restocking impossible), essential goods are always safely overproduced.

In which case, the exact opposite occurs. There is no 'need' for them to be traded except to take advantage of inflationary differences in prices between struggling towns and wealthy towns. Every town has more than they need, and can't give them away fast enough. Prices will naturally tend towards a continuous decrease in the long term unless demand spikes are used, etc.

In other words, essential goods make very, VERY poor trade goods in the environment this model describes. Luxuries are the opposite. The more you trade in a good, the less profitable it becomes, until the point where the profitability in trading between the supplying town and the demanding town is negligible. Naturally, we'd make sure that this point was rarely, if ever, reached. On the other hand, a shortfall in luxuries drives the prices upwards gently, but with no negative consequences to the town or player.

Oh, and for the curious, I'm not an economics tutor, but a former economics student, now studying Marketing.
 
<b>The Diamond</b>, you're a genius! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/buds.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":drunk" border="0" alt="buds.gif" />
 
<!--QuoteBegin-The Diamond+Apr 24 2005, 11:14 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(The Diamond @ Apr 24 2005, 11:14 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and for the curious, I'm not an economics tutor, but a former economics student, now studying Marketing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Heh, looks like you're writing <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/poet.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":hmm" border="0" alt="poet.gif" /> a thesis, too!

Nice work! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/me.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":onya" border="0" alt="me.gif" /> If my economics teacher had been this interesting, I mighta actually learned something! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="icon_wink.gif" />
 
Well, I agree with Rico. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

One other factor, I think--though you already cover it via price capping, I guess--is that most of these towns would have a pretty high swords-to-people ratio, and probably a merchant scalping would not, um, last very long. So we have an excuse for the capping. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

I'm currently working on the fleet backend, so I guess whether we go full concrete/deterministic or add some layer of abstraction will depend on how fast I can get the fleet code to execute.
Also, right now max is 64 fleets, which while more than enough for the old islands is not, I should think, enough for the whole Caribbean if we go full real, and thus we'd probably have to dynamically switch between real and abstract depending on distance from the player.

We can maybe update towns once a week, in rotation, so only a few get updated each day.

(A great help here will be Scheffnow's Gauger, to see what is actually taking the time).

Hmm, another thought: half abstract. I.e. have war fleets and all major tradefleets real, and have minor / short-haul traders abstract. Then, depending on the war fleets' position (and national relations) cut down on the shorthaul trade in that area.
That would require going back to randomgen fleets, and some kind of stored trade route information (rather than just storing the origin, destination, and current fleet position we'd also have to say which boxes are on traderoutes and thus have randomgen fleets in them).

{ I wanted to have no gen-at-load-to-sea fleets at /all/, but I doubt we can get that model to run fast enough. }

Oh, I should probably explain the fleet model (new thread in a bit).
 
Aye, speed o' code will be your downfall if you want to map every fleet in the Caribbean. Not least since, realistically, you'd have to map the interaction of piracy, etc.

In terms of the economic 'cycle', I don't think it needs to update weekly - that's WAY too high if everything is going to be mapped in 'real' terms. Its going to take traders at least 2-10 days to travel between one colony and another - at least, based on the distances of the original islands. And that's one single trading action. Even the most shrewd of storeowners would need a little longer than that to react to changes!

As long as each colony updates once, maybe twice per month, that'll keep prices fluid enough to be noticeable, but not leaping dramatically enough to irritate. Of course, whether players will particularly notice this effect is a completely different matter. In SMP, with less goods (and with a more similar price range) its very easy to keep a rough track of prices, and the log records recently seen prices. In POTC? There isn't even a handy log statement of how much profit was made on a particular trip.

If the real point of adding in the economy is to create an observed benefit, then the best way will be to implement it behind other factors (e.g. population size, population wealth) and have those become more far-reaching factors. All you do then is give the player the chance to influence things by trading themselves, ensuring the safety of other traders or, conversely, by interfering with the trade of other nations.

As a thought, if the original model is in place and we have a few abstract algorithms to represent the effect of merchant trade (ie, changing things slowly but surely over time - or more swiftly if a high profit route arises!), then we can at least simulate the Caribbean economy more accurately, and give rise to new potential rumours about the best trading routes (and how much longer they're likely to have an abnormally large profit!)

All we then really want, at least at this stage, is to have the player's actions be able to affect this model. What you've said runs exactly along the lines of how I'd go about it too...

We divide the map into areas, some owned by national powers and some neutral. When a ship is generated in one of those areas and turns out to be a trader of some description, we have an algorithm in place that decides what type of trader it is, who it belongs to, where it came from / where its going and what its cargo is.

This could be done fairly simply - if you know its destination, then you know it has 1 of 4 goods that it'll be carrying (or 1 of 3 if its a smuggler). Depending on what kind of trader it is will bias the likelihood of them carrying the more valuable goods compared to the cheaper ones (assuming that it is roughly 2 cheap, 2 valuable on the Imported Goods list).

You could then backtrack and work out where its origin point would have been (although I'd only bother if there would be some real use to doing so). The only benefit would be to make sure, for example, that short-haulers were not being given cargo that they could not have picked up nearby, etc. If we want that level of detail, its not too hard to reference the necessary criteria when creating a trader type, but it'd be time consuming and add very little in the way of realism.

After all, these types of trader are not obvious to the player...and even if they are (good suggestion, IMO), we're not going to get many head-scratchers who'll sit down and say 'Hang on, how did a short-hauler scared of the English get sugar from round here?'. Maybe they did some dodgy dealing, maybe there was a glut of sugar from their last port of call, maybe they actually did sneak into a foreign port. Who knows, doesn't matter...

Now, onto the fun part. Once we know where these ships are headed, we know the loss to their destination, so we can make an arbitrary judgement on how much damage that does to that town's economy. In this manner, anchoring offshore and harassing inbound merchant shipping will soon have an observed effect on the town's wealth. Especially so if you link crime rate and general squalour of the inhabitants with wealthiness...

And yes, you could certainly track a number of war fleets / pirate fleets and damage trade respectively along the trade routes of the areas in which they are present. Perhaps I should make that link clearer - if you divide the map into, say, roughly island-sized areas, you can draw lines between colonies to represent the trade routes that ships will take.

If you're looking at a more complicated map than the original POTC, then you'd need to identify trade routes as the logical path that traders would take, assuming that all nations are neutral / friendly. When a trader's presence needs to be calculated (player is nearby, warfleet or pirate is nearby) to determine exactly who it is, you check against the nationality of the waters (neutral / owned - and the diplomatic status attached), the trade route possibilities (ie, where are the likely destinations of the ships passing through here, which also defines their heading) and then the likelihood of it being a particular trader class.

For example:

In neutral waters, every nationality is as likely to be represented as any other. You could take a leaf from Sid Meier and bias it by proximity to national towns if you wanted.

In national waters, traders from nations at war with the owning nation are less likely to appear, and those that do are more likely to be heavily escorted, longer-range ships that have no choice but to pass through, or smugglers.

The trade routes in this example have been predetermined. We know that traders from Isla Muelle go from there to Redmond - therefore every area in a direct line between the two (or however the traders are deemed to travel) is on that trade route, therefore Redmond is a possible destination. If traders are known to go the other way too, as is Isla Muelle, etc. etc.

Where no trade route is defined, (ie, open waters), I assume that you would simply define the nearest couple of towns as potential destinations.

Having got a nationality and a destination, we now need to decide what kind of trader it is (nat. SH, free SH, nat. LH, free LH, smuggler, ocean going - if we're on the route to/from Europe). This will be biased by diplomatic status and the natural ratio of each type to each other.

Finally, knowing who owns it, where its going and what type it is, we just need to decide what it is carrying, which is dependent firstly on destination (ie, 1 of 4 / 1 of 3 imports) and then secondly on type of trader for the likelihood of what the actual cargo will be, plus a random factor for other things that might be being carried.

The only type of 'trader' that would be mapped with these suggestions would be the Treasure Fleets. This is because their location would quite possibly be well-rumoured, and they would take a very highly defined route. Plus, they're naturally quite a major potential haul for any pirate. Also, historically, the only one of any major size was Spain's...that could quite easily be implemented. The treasure fleet arrives from Europe and then makes its way from town to town, removing a portion of the town's wealth when it arrives and adding it to its own. Eventually, when its finished its rounds, it goes home. To break its predictability, two or three possible adjustments on the basic route it takes could be coded in, so the player would be less able to sit and wait, knowing when it would arrive.

Of course, there's nothing stopping scurrelous curs in the taverns from letting slip about particularly valuable cargoes on the move. Once mentioned, these fleets could be temporarily created and tracked until they reach their destination. I'm assuming the rumour would run along the lines of:

"I've heard that there is a (nationality) (ship type1) escorted by (ship type2)s on its way to (town1) from (town2) with a cargo of (good1)s and (good2)s. They should be (location1) about now."

Filled in, for example (including grammatical corrections):

"I've heard that there is an English Lugger MM escorted by Brigantines on its way to Isla Muelle from Redmond with a cargo of Sandal and Silks. They should be just off the east coast of Falaise de Fleur about now."


This would remove the dynamic model of trading, and not require the game to track vast numbers of trading vessels, but it would allow the player to interfere / interact with the Caribbean economy.

Of course, the biggest bummer of all of this is that POTC has such a clunky, unintuitive interface (sorry, Akella, but its true) which was never really designed to implement the kind of things we're throwing in. If we make trading more dynamic, and its potential effects more widespread, then we also need to make it possible for the player to keep a sensible track of prices (ie, what the hell is going on) and bring it to their attention in useful, interesting ways.
 
wow @ this thread <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_eek.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":shock:" border="0" alt="icon_eek.gif" /> thank you for your input, the diamond. good to have an expert on the case <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" />

i like the system you've just put forward (if i've understood it correctly you mean that a fleet that the player comes across could turn out to be a merchant of a certain type, with a likelihood based on their position on the map, and whether it is on a pre-determined trade route, etc.) - i was thinking of a system like that at one point. perhaps attacking ships on a trade route might not only do a calculated amount of damage on a town, but also increase the perceived 'danger' of a route, so less and less merchants would be willing to risk it and/or they would go better armed (and surely push up prices at the destination port) until the 'danger' had returned to normal.

i would truly adore to play a game based in the 1600s caribbean with a fully-functioning dynamic economy, persistent merchant fleets etc., but i think for potc it's too much detail with relation to the extra fun it would bring to the player. (if the game were played from the point of view of the governor of one of the colonies (which would be well cool <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" /> ) then i would definitely want that system!)

i completely agree about the potc interface being clunky (especially once you learn how it works). 's what you get when you design games with consoles in mind... maybe that would also be a reason to go for a simpler economic/trade system.
 
Great job Diamond. However I wouldn’t call smugglers ‘despicable’. Most of the traders in the 16th/17th century Caribbean were smugglers (John Hawkins and a certain younger relative of his were smugglers as well, but I admit his particular trade was really despicable). For the economic model: How about setting up some virtual towns ‘Netherlands’, ‘Spain’, ‘England’, ‘France’ east of the map to determine the flux of goods,money and ships?

Ad 17th century Caribbean economy and POTC:
This was certainly different than the way it is presented in Port Royal 1/2. I guess the problem is to create a colonial economy (finished products to the colonies, raw material to the mother land, which is still fun to play. Increasing the importance of smuggling (to historial levels) would be a solution, but could it be incorporated into the economic model?
Since this was the age of mercantilism I would in general go with restrictions of legal trade to people of the same national affiliation (this has to be sorted out and made much stricter anyway). Like a letter of marque, a thing like the Spanish asiento could be introduced for other nationals. Buy it from the governor (good behaviour required) and you are allowed to go to the store. Otherwise you have to deal with the smugglers (for buying AND selling. The unreasonable high profit from smuggling should be determined by market mechanisms as well). This opens possibilities for individual governors. If you are on friendly terms with a certain governor, he might let you trade without permission (historical Spanish governors tended to consider smugglers as nearly shipwrecked, who had to be allowed into port and started trading with them). Ingame smuggling could be mainly used to bring European products (taken as prize on sea or bought from pirates), to small colonies thereby circumventing the gateway towns. Pirates in general would be some kind of free port.

It would be nice if each nation got a different economical doctrine:
Spain: The Spanish state controls all the trade between the colonies and the mother land but mainly focuses on precious metal, therefore neglecting the needs of the local population, who had to turn to smugglers. (Lots of people left the Caribbean Islands for the Spanish main in the second half of the 1500s.) For a long time the only way to make a living on Cuba or Hispaniola were cattle. Only later tobacco and sugar cane was introduced. Havanna as exit for ships to Europe remained quite wealthy, whereas Santiago and especially Santo Domingo declined.

English: On the lesser Antilles focus on tobacco, later (due to competition from NA) introduction of sugar cane and coffee (as well as Jamaica). Cotton on the Bahamas. Port Royal becomes center of their trade network. Still they try to keep out foreign (dutch) traders with the navigation act.

Dutch: focus mainly on trading. Douwesen could become some kind of free port. Production of salt (!) by the Westindian company.

Portuguese: Hmm… They were not there. Maybe give them the historic role of the Danish Virgin Islands, with a governor, who gives letters of marque to anyone who is dropping by.

French: Mercantilist principles (of course). Plantations on the Lesser Antilles. Lots of (unorganised) privateering.

I just finished reading some books on the topic (like ‘Barbados in the 17th century’, ‘Spanish main from 1492 to 1713’) so I am really interested into modelling these things.
 
Thanks fer the kind words, both o' ye.

From what NK's been sayin', the model as sketched out would be implementable - but you wouldn't *see* the traders on the map like you see ships now due to restrictions in the engine. Your lookout would yell "Sail Ho!", you'd hit F3 and get a "We've spotted a Dutch merchant off the port bow, Captain! Looks like she's small fry...", etc.

But yes, depending on where you were on the map, caribbean diplomacy and the value of the trade routes (if it can be sensibly considered), you'd expect to see different kinds of traders. The idea of danger on a trade route isn't a bad one...that way, piracy, diplomacy and the player's own evil influence could be combined to affect the number of traders, plus their strength and the strength of their escorts.

Agreed - prices at the destination would go up (that'd happen naturally due to the underlying economic model anyway), and the merchants taking the route would be harder to hit. That'd also be a necessity, otherwise an enterprising pirate could try to very literally corner a major trade route by wiping out all other shipping on it (a la X2).

I think the issue with detail vs enjoyment is that certain bits of the game will have to be tweaked / overhauled to make the implementation of this kind of economy truly 'fun'. For the moment, I'd settle for it giving people a platform to extend the game's scope...already ideas are leaping off from this that I can see wouldn't be too difficult to throw into the mix. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

Jim, your insights on what should be produced where and the balances between the nations will, I imagine, be very useful! I'm fine with the general economic modelling, but I'm not 100% on the exact historical situation.

Firstly, my comment on 'despicable' smugglers was supposed to be humourous, since it was in context of writing a perfectly 'nice' trade model, which then took into account the illegal side of things. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

I think to some extent you would have virtual towns off the map. You at least need a destination for ocean-bound ships to head for. Having a different one for each country would allow differences such as tobacco being more valuable in Spain than England if a lot of tobacco is shipped to England, etc.

This is all good, provided the player has some way of keeping track of these price changes. Otherwise its just extra fluff in the system...

If you like, the 'problem' with the POTC economy as it stands is that it was supposed to be a fixed set of prices to allow the player to trade in order to make money, and make simple, sensible decisions about where to trade to get profit.

We're trying to convert it into a dynamic system with far-reaching consequences that affect the game itself and that can be altered by the player and other forces. On top of that, we've now got to give the player a more sensible way of dealing with the information - even though this has never been coded. When you consider how tricky it is to take a brief glance at Caribbean diplomacy in the game, you'll understand how tracking changing prices at multiple colonies will be a right pain!

Plus, the goods list wasn't really thought of in terms of a flowing economy. We've got some of the raw goods, like tobacco, but we're missing the next stages, such as tobacconists converting them into cigars. That would give you a much more fluid trade mechanism - tobacco either goes straight to Europe, or goes via an intermediate town to be converted to cigars and then on to Europe with an added profit margin.

Anyone familiar with Sid Meier's Colonisation will have an idea o' the kind o' economic balancing I'm referring to. No reason that we couldn't rip it o...I mean, *be inspired* by it.

Mercantilism would be different for different nations. Holland, for example, was notable for encouraging free trade. Its colonies were far, far less mercantile than anyone else - Spain, as you rightly mention, being the opposite.

There's no reason that we couldn't implement a way of dealing with that. Depending on the nation's relations towards you, and/or your reputation (to either extreme!), you might be offered better (or worse!) trading terms. There might be "an additional tax for foreign opportunists such as yourself. Don't complain to me, captain, you'll have to take it up with the governor..." or, vice versa, "I can always offer better prices to a loyal captain / friend of the (nation) like you..."

Making the smugglers an alternative source of trade would be possible. You'd have to slightly overhaul the way they work (IMO, a good thing), but once a meeting is arranged, you could give their set of barrels and goods a store interface.

Problem would be balancing. If the player can't trade with merchants, then you need to make trading with smugglers a necessary evil. You would expect lower selling prices and lower buying prices, since they avoid tax...and presumably they would have less to offer. But, if they can't offer you enough necessities, such as rum and wheat, then you're utterly screwed.

Game balancing would require smugglers to sell things to you more expensively than the store, and buy things at worse prices EXCEPT where you are trading in contraband, where naturally the profit margins are exceptionally good.

Thinking about it a little, if you couldn't trade with the merchant, then you'd expect the smugglers to milk that for all its worth by charging you higher prices for things...they know you've got no choice, after all...Also, they'd be on a slightly different economic scale than the store. What they have 'to be gotten rid of quickly and quietly' would be small numbers of unpredictable goods, almost certainly not everything. If you needed more of anything, they'd probably be able to get it for you, but at the cost of extra time needed and probably a higher price due to the increased risk for them of getting hold of, say, 40 tons of rum at short notice to be sold illegally...

You'd also have to lower the likelihood of the coastguard surprising you on virtually every single meeting with the smugglers - you could implement it based on the value of trade conducted. The more value changes hands, the more likely it is that the coastguard will be tipped off and try to intervene. A small cargo from a small ship could easily be lost track of...

No reason that couldn't be written into the model, but it'd need front-end work for a new smuggler interface. I imagine it'd be postponed until after the standard economy is in place. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

The flip side would be that as your relationship with the town / nation increases, legitimate trading would become more and more worthwhile. Also, the benefit of the slightly lower prices from smugglers on what they have to hand would be offset in time partly by the cheaper store prices, but mainly by the risk of reputation loss or coastguard interference for such a paltry gain (ie, only a couple of bits and pieces at a better price). Good / essential for a small captain trying to make good.

Haven't really given this too much thought - I think the main plan for now is to get a working model for the main economy. Smuggling can be overhauled after. Rest assured, the prices of contraband will be worked sensibly into the model. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />
 
My god, reading this, and the "Fleet" topic, my jaw dropped to knee level. This is BIG, I´d never expected something that ambitious (but then again, I didn´t expect something like the build being possible as well).
 
<!--QuoteBegin-The Diamond+Apr 25 2005, 09:37 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(The Diamond @ Apr 25 2005, 09:37 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From what NK's been sayin', the model as sketched out would be implementable - but you wouldn't *see* the traders on the map like you see ships now due to restrictions in the engine. Your lookout would yell "Sail Ho!", you'd hit F3 and get a "We've spotted a Dutch merchant off the port bow, Captain! Looks like she's small fry...", etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

aye - i just meant deciding the number of traders that set out on predetermined trade routes is a lot more workable, for the purposes of potc, than a fully-fledged free ai system. then i spose whilst you were sailing about on the worldmap the probability of different types of encounter would be calculated and constantly re-calculated, based on your current coordinates - obviously if the player finds himself smack-bang on one of those trade routes, the probability of encountering a certain type of trader would go up (depending on the number of traders on that route); on valuable routes the chance of encountering pirates might go up too.



<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plus, the goods list wasn't really thought of in terms of a flowing economy. We've got some of the raw goods, like tobacco, but we're missing the next stages, such as tobacconists converting them into cigars. That would give you a much more fluid trade mechanism - tobacco either goes straight to Europe, or goes via an intermediate town to be converted to cigars and then on to Europe with an added profit margin.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

i seem to remember it's quite easy to add new goods types? though i never tried it myself. if we added too many more goods then we'd have to change the shopping interface... *rubs hands together* <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" />



<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No reason that couldn't be written into the model, but it'd need front-end work for a new smuggler interface.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

j0 <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" />
 
Well, the economy's as big as you make it, really. Doing demand-supply across the colonies and leaving it at that wouldn't take long at all, or be particularly complicated...or worthwhile, for that matter. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

I'm not entirely sure how NK's handled the coding for fleets, I've not looked into it, but it would be a bolt-on mod to the existing way the game handles creating ships and what type, changing it to handle traders in a different way.

I'm not sure how 'exact' trade routes will be, as it depends on the size of the 'areas' mentioned. These could be as big or as small as wanted, since they don't affect code speed. The traders will appear for that route if you're in area which that route passes through.

But yes, if its a well-travelled trade route that you're on, you're more likely to see traders...whether or not you'd see proportionately more pirates is hard to say. It depends on how this is approached. You could equally argue you'd expect to see more warships, protecting their nation's merchant traffic - and their presence would reduce piracy. Its all swings and roundabouts. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

To be honest, making any useful implementation of the economy might either require tinkering with the store interface or adding a screen to the F2 menu allowing a much easier comparison of prices.
 
<!--QuoteBegin-Kieron+Apr 25 2005, 04:02 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kieron @ Apr 25 2005, 04:02 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->change the shopping interface... *rubs hands together* <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="^_^" border="0" alt="happy.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="xD:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> Yes, please! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="xD:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

I've often thought we should have trade goods that go "to the home country" - exported to somewhere other than the colony - and tobacco to cigars is a good example. Sugar cane to sugar is another (maybe that land you earn from governors is home to cane fields which is how you make your money)... Rum would be a natural export, and so would specific endemic spices such as vanilla or peppers...

Perhaps you could load up a ship and send it off to "England" (or other home countries) with one of your officers as captain, and have it come back months and months and months later full of goods from Europe and a tidy profit for you... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/william.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":will" border="0" alt="william.gif" />
 
Oh yeah that is an awesome idea Cat... anything with more interaction with the Motherlands, instead of the theoretical vacuum these little islands exist in. I also like the idea of risky ventures with potentially big losses or big pay-offs. And yeah i have been wondering about refined goods... sugar and cigars like you say, or like furniture out of wood.
 
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